Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

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exogenesis
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Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 11. Nov 18, 18:21

Anyone got experience with Speedstep ?,
is it possible to e.g. set max. clock-boost to say 125% rather than say 160% ?


This is on a Dell PC, 'top end gaming' PC.

The PC is for intensive data processing,
wondering if anyone has experience - thought it was worth an ask,
any help appreciated...

PC spec is (almost) max :
i9 7980XE (36 threads), x299 MBoard, 64 GB mem (& dual GTX1080i) & stuff.

The PC blue-screens or locks when really pushed (hitting 90+'C CPU temp),
leaving me to conclude the fitted Dell liquid cooler is not up to the job.

In the BIOS, SpeedStep is enabled, & under intensive use the CPU clock boosts up,
without SpeedStep the PC runs at about 3/5 of what it could do...but doesn't overheat.

Had a Dell person remote-in & 'standard stress test' it (with Prime95.exe) & it stayed <60'C,
all CPUs at 100% with clock auto-boosting to 125%, no problems.

But the problem app. uses core-affinity for 'thread balancing' the UI & processing,
where the first so many (2 min.) threads are reserved for UI (to stop UI lagging).
This somehow seems to signal the CPU auto-overclock to boost to 160%,
& some cores overheat & cause the bluescreen/lockup.


Or perhap there's some other solution ?, apart from turning SpeedStep off,
or using a better cooler, since it's wanted to work as-is 'off the Dell shelf', & thats's not a Dell option.


btw I guess this PC should meet the min. spec. for X4,
might borrow it over Christmas :)


(edited for clarity)

apogee
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Re: Anyone know about SpeedSteaeep ? (toauto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by apogee » Tue, 13. Nov 18, 23:31

Speedstep has been around a while now, but it's intention is more of a power saving function, so a cpu clocked at say 3ghz could be slowed down to only run at a speed relative to the current load. turn off speedstep and it sticks at the specified clock.

I know some cpus have a built in overboost mode to increase the clock to a point, say from 3.5. to 3.9 ghz based on load.

but these are two separate things, but both are os controlled if available to the os.

pjknibbs
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Re: Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 05:11

Yeah, I think you're confusing your nomenclature here. SpeedStep is the system whereby the processor *reduces* its clock speed when not under load in order to save power. You need to be looking for Turbo Boost--if necessary you can disable that entirely in the BIOS and just have your CPU run at stock clocks under load, I don't know how granular it gets beyond that.

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Re: Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by korio » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 17:01

If you want a good overclock, you will have to do it manually.

You can do a "default" profile on the MB "bios" and another one for overclock, then config the overclock one and finetune it.

You probably will need to adjust each core voltages and such to avoid overheating and blue screens, but only if you really want to push the system to its limit.

Take into account that overclocking a system degrades much faster the processor specially so over time you will need to adjust the overclocking settings to compensate the degradation, but only if you do a really aggressive overclock.

Anyway, i dont recommend using any kind of software to "automatically" overclock the system, they usually just apply more voltage to the core and thats not always good.

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Re: Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:11

Turbo Boost is an official Intel feature on their newer processors, Korio? It's not some third party software that might damage things.

jlehtone
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Re: Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by jlehtone » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45

pjknibbs wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 05:11
Yeah, I think you're confusing your nomenclature here. SpeedStep is the system whereby the processor *reduces* its clock speed when not under load in order to save power. You need to be looking for Turbo Boost--if necessary you can disable that entirely in the BIOS and just have your CPU run at stock clocks under load, I don't know how granular it gets beyond that.
Turbo Boost has varied on Intel CPU generations.
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/turb ... technology
Turbo Boost Technology (TBT) is a microprocessor technology developed by Intel that attempts to enable temporary higher performance by opportunistically and automatically increasing the processor's clock frequency. This feature automatically kicks in on TBT-enabled processors when when there is sufficient headroom - subject to power rating, temperature rating, and current limits.

The amount of time the processors remains in Turbo Boosts depends on the workload and OS requests.
While looking for that it turned out that there is separate Turbo Boost Max Technology (TBMT):
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/turb ... technology

The CPU in question: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i9/i9-7980xe
Ok, two specific cores could go up to 4.4 GHz with TBMT. Load on any pair of cores could run 4.2 GHz with TBT, but if all 18 cores are active then TB is "only" 3.4 GHz. Without TB the clock is 2.6 GHz.

Does the Dell BIOS have 'Turbo Boost', 'Max multiplier' and/or 'Turbo Max' options?


How do you get the 125% and 160% values?
125% * 2.6 GHz = 3.25 GHz
160% * 2.6 GHz = 4.16 GHz

Almost like Dell stress test would be evenly on all cores (and fails to reach the 3.4 GHz), and your app on only two cores (below the max two core 4.2 GHz, but above max four core 4.0 GHz TBT).
the problem app. uses core-affinity
Yes, OS can tell/request a thread to stay in specific core. That should reduce context switches (copy/move from one core to another). I used to fix X3R into specific core.

On the other hand, I saw a quad-core to shift single, heavy thread between cores and I did assume that CPU might have attempted to balance the heat generation. If you have one core in constant load (due to affinity or TBMT), that core does warm up.
exogenesis wrote:
Sun, 11. Nov 18, 18:21
The PC blue-screens or locks when really pushed (hitting 90+'C CPU temp),
leaving me to conclude the fitted Dell liquid cooler is not up to the job.
The CPU should throttle by itself to avoid overcooking, without messing the OS.

It is nice (in a bad way) to hear that Dell liquid cooler is same "quality" as HP cooler (~2011--2012).
(HP can get to 90C on idle ... rigth after warranty expiration.)

Perhaps it is the strain of extensive power draw on the motherboard that kicks the bucket? (But Dell stress does draw power too.)
exogenesis wrote:
Sun, 11. Nov 18, 18:21
btw I guess this PC should meet the min. spec. for X4,
might borrow it over Christmas :)
Do you really want to run very important computation on a system that evidently blue screens on such loads? :P
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exogenesis
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Re: Anyone know about SpeedStep ? (auto-overclocking an Area 51)

Post by exogenesis » Wed, 14. Nov 18, 20:59

Thanks for taking the time & effort to have a look :)

I did think Speedstep was for throttling, & Intel's TurboBoost or TurboMax
(whether they are BIOS/CPU or OS/CPU controlled) were for speeding things up.

I can only guess what I'm seeing is that with Speedstep On, the boost(s) somehow win,
whereas confusingly with it Off the boosts somehow are not boosting so much, but keeping a milder overclock clock speed,
can't think of a logical explanation, unless there's a 'bug' in TBT for this processor...


It seems to me that with the app. I need to run, that sets core affinities & with SpeedStep On,
it screws with the TBT ability to control those 'sliding' boost rules, that depends on how many cores are being used,
as linked by jlehtone (2.6 GHz -> 4.2 for two cores with TBT, but with all cores stressed the boost it's only 3.4).

Interesting that TurboBoost description is 'temporary higher performance', possibly implying time-limited (and/or thermal) clock boosting,
I've heard it's pretty brief on one associate's PC that was very well cooled,
With this Area51 it goes on long enough to blow at 90'C, & I had the same problem with TurboMax disabled/uninstalled (i.e. just TurboBoost).

jlehtone wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45
Does the Dell BIOS have 'Turbo Boost', 'Max multiplier' and/or 'Turbo Max' options?
I wish it did, can't see anything though, that's what I think I need (and/or a better cooler).
I can't see a BIOS setting for turning TurboBoost Off or down.
Wondering if the BIOS on/off for SpeedStep is switched-around or something ? - unlikely I guess.

jlehtone wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45
How do you get the 125% and 160% values?
125% * 2.6 GHz = 3.25 GHz
160% * 2.6 GHz = 4.16 GHz
Windows 10 TaskManager always read 100% CPU with all/most cores stressed,
whereas the ResourceMonitor (launched from TaskManager) has 2 numbers at the top in the CPU tab - the CPU% and the Clock%.
The latter was reading 125% clock (SpeedStep Off) or 160% clock (SpeedStep On) when running the app. that sets affinities (just the last 34 cores stressed).
but only reads about 125% or less with the Prime95.exe stress-test (SpeedStep On, all cores stressed).

jlehtone wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45
Almost like Dell stress test would be evenly on all cores (and fails to reach the 3.4 GHz), and your app on only two cores (below the max two core 4.2 GHz, but above max four core 4.0 GHz TBT).
Agreed, my app runs on the last 34 cores (hyperthreads) , cores 0 & 1 are 'reserved' by affinity-setting :
supposedly for keeping the UI smooth, while it's processing data.
I'm thinking that something about that confuses TurboBoost,
maybe I should try reserving the last 2 hyperthreads instead...

jlehtone wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45
On the other hand, I saw a quad-core to shift single, heavy thread between cores and I did assume that CPU might have attempted to balance the heat generation. If you have one core in constant load (due to affinity or TBMT), that core does warm up.
Agreed, it does seem that even just one/few 'faster running' core(s) can get the CPU-package temperature up to a dangerous level.
(with this not-up-to-the-job cooler anyway).

jlehtone wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45
Perhaps it is the strain of extensive power draw on the motherboard that kicks the bucket? (But Dell stress does draw power too.)
Maybe, the bluescreen message-viewer app. said the PC glitches with a *something* overheat event, can't quite remeber the exact wording...but CPU related.


I guess it looks like I'll have to run with the PC at possibly as little 3/5 of the speed it could run at,
which sort of defeats the object of paying £7500 for a 'monster PC'.

jlehtone wrote:
Wed, 14. Nov 18, 18:45
Do you really want to run very important computation on a system that evidently blue screens on such loads? :P
Hmmm, actaully I think you're right, think I might stick to my old 2600K PC / GTX980, at least it's stable at 4.5 GHz :)
And the Area51 weighs a ton & the triangle shape is awkward to handle, I might get back strain just moving it around!

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