Trump

[fiksal]

Yeah, i have vague recollections that UK national health service is something they see as borderline communist (so would assume that's far left) by sections of the US - and anything with the word "social" means communist too...

That's why i was wondering what they consider far left. Some examples may help understand (and I hesitate to use the word understand) some of the things you read being said, or at least reference markers to gauge where other things may reside in their minds

I just had this discussion with an American on Twitter,

I asked him how much his healthcare cost, he told me $1700 a month for himself and his partner so $850 / person (~£680) with a $7000 excess (or deducible as they call it). I have no idea if this represents a good insurance deal in the US or not.

Nope, that's a very crappy deal. Mostly likely due to his employer... Though with that much premium, I am guessing employer doesnt pay into the insurance at all and the guy is forced to buy one himself. Probably has a jacked up insurance due to pre-existing conditions (if I am not mistaken, those restrictions from Obama era were already removed).

I had a decent job in US with a good (and expensive to my employer insurance), with no preexisting conditions. My deductible was something like $100-150 or so. Dont remember my monthly, but definitely not a thousand. I was by far not representative of most people in US. With that insurance I could go to a doctor every day.

But that insurance is fully up to your employer. My other family in US has nothing of the sort, and they have to decide when do they want to go to doctor and when they'd rather not.

Don't get me wrong the NHS is far from perfect, I have many complaints. . . . but it's paradise compared to the US.

I think once you compare nations with about same ish economy and similar incomes, you'd see that healthcare is more or less even. Some less, some more. Prices and accessibility differ widely though.

[RegisterMe]

In short, Trump supporters consider UK health insurance as non functioning. People basically go there to die never getting treatment.

Which is just cobblers. My mother is 82 and in the last couple of years has had a heart attack and a broken hip, both of which she was very well treated for. Presumably she's exactly the sort of person that they believe would be left to die to save money?

Absolutely. My (Irish immigrant) mum has had two hips replaced on the NHS. My (American immigrant) step-father has had a knee op and a back op on the NHS, I was born under the care of the NHS etc. The 78 year old neighbour I do a bit of minor caring for (principally regular coffee and chat and the odd bit of shopping) has had two hips and a knee replaced courtesy of the NHS, and her husband, who has had two massive strokes and suffers from dementia is in an NHS care home being looked after by people who are as close to sainthood as I will allow (that's a joke at myself btw ).

Two of my best friends are senior doctors, one of them was American by birth (but gave up his citizenship due to IRS overreach) and is married to a Canadian. They have a much more informed view than I do and both are simply horrified by how imbalanced and discriminatory the system is in the US.

For all its faults the NHS is an amazing institution the provides fantastic care with no up front charges and, in the main, no charges at all.

We are rightly proud of it, and extremely grateful to the staff who work in it.

[Bishop149]

very crappy deal. Mostly likely due to his employer... Though with that much premium, I am guessing employer doesn't pay into the insurance at all and the guy is forced to buy one himself. Probably has a jacked up insurance due to pre-existing conditions (if I am not mistaken, those restrictions from Obama era were already removed).

Yeah, he explicitly said that he personally paid for "100%" of his healthcare as part of his "Why should I pay for other peoples?" stance, so I'm guessing its not employer subsidised at all.

But that insurance is fully up to your employer. My other family in US has nothing of the sort, and they have to decide when do they want to go to doctor and when they'd rather not.

I also encountered "It doesn't cost me anything, my employer pays!" as an argument to which my response was, Oh it certainly does cost you because no Capitalist worth the name is going to take that cost out of THEIR profits. . . . they'll be deducting that cost from their employees in some manner, you can bet your life on it. . . . . in fact you kinda are!
On that note I'm also stunned how many Americans seem absolutely fine with their employer essentially holding the power of life and death over them, I'd find this situation absolutely terrifying its also much less libertarian than proper socialised healthcare would be. . . I don't get it. . . . . . I think I had more respect for the guy covering the cost himself.

[fiksal]

very crappy deal. Mostly likely due to his employer... Though with that much premium, I am guessing employer doesn't pay into the insurance at all and the guy is forced to buy one himself. Probably has a jacked up insurance due to pre-existing conditions (if I am not mistaken, those restrictions from Obama era were already removed).

Yeah, he explicitly said that he personally paid for "100%" of his healthcare as part of his "Why should I pay for other peoples?" stance, so I'm guessing its not employer subsidised at all.

Yep, also a common thing with the "right". Why should "I" help anyone. And then those people magically change their position if they get a disability and they suddenly expects benefits from the government, to cover their sky rocketing health costs.

Egoism is popular.

But that insurance is fully up to your employer. My other family in US has nothing of the sort, and they have to decide when do they want to go to doctor and when they'd rather not.

I also encountered "It doesn't cost me anything, my employer pays!" as an argument to which my response was, Oh it certainly does cost you because no Capitalist worth the name is going to take that cost out of THEIR profits. . . . they'll be deducting that cost from their employees in some manner, you can bet your life on it. . . . . in fact you kinda are!

Fair point, to the employer, this is the cost of having you hired.

And in US it has a very real impact. For example, here's one - it's cheaper for this reason to hire a similar skill-ed (short or long term) contract worker versus a full time employee. Something that many people in US had felt on their skin, who go with mass layoffs from big factories / companies.

On that note I'm also stunned how many Americans seem absolutely fine with their employer essentially holding the power of life and death over them, I'd find this situation absolutely terrifying its also much less libertarian than proper socialised healthcare would be. . . I don't get it. . . . . . I think I had more respect for the guy covering the cost himself.

It's a little more scary if you are paranoid. The insurance in US is free to deny claims and jack up your insurance if you use it too much. So your life is also held by the insurance company who is there to make a profit, not to make sure you are all patched up.

People tend not to think about it though till a catastrophic event.

[Bishop149]

It's a little more scary if you are paranoid. The insurance in US is free to deny claims and jack up your insurance if you use it too much. So your life is also held by the insurance company who is there to make a profit, not to make sure you are all patched up.

Well, yes exactly.
When you think about it "Socialised healthcare is cheaper" shouldn't be a statement that is the least bit surprising or controversial . . . of course it's cheaper, due to the simple fact that the provider isn't trying to make a profit.

[fiksal]

So Iran.


Two tankers seized, + second warship sent. Apparently.

How's our master negotiator doing?

[Chips]

So Iran.


Two tankers seized, + second warship sent. Apparently.

How's our master negotiator doing?

To be fair, that's not *his* problem. Gibraltar seized a tanker in Gibraltar waters - whether for US sanctions or EU I have no idea Should Iran have to adhere, no idea (it's sanctions against Syria not Iran that it fell foul of). Was it at US request or genuinely UK knowledge that it was heading to Syria against sanctions (that they possibly don't have to adhere to?) - no idea.

The tankers seized are UK owned allegedly and Iran's military did say they were going to do this anyway as retaliation. They are in a corner - and realistically, what are we going to do about it? Nothing.

Trumps fault? He pulled the US out of a treaty for whatever reason and instigated sanctions. To say it's his fault that Iran is (allegedly) breaking international law by boarding ships outside its jurisdiction is (personally) pushing it too far. This is Irans fault, it may have been in retaliation for Gibraltar action based on alleged US instruction instead of EU mandates, but that was the UK doing the work whether at US behest or not.

Iran is certainly not going to win friends with this action and it's baffling what they think they'll win given they've literally been asked to give assurances that their Tanker won't go to Syria and it's on its way...

Whether Europe is going to give a damn is a interesting question. Iran's actions aren't exactly what I'd call "stable".

[fiksal]

Oh dont get me wrong, I am not claiming this specific event as Trump's fault.
He screwed up previous agreements, that's sure, but this escalation is a bit different.

Mostly keeping an eye what the best negotiator is going to do... maybe leave Britain to itself?

[Chips]

*shrugs* Depends if this is just about siezed tankers or is now also going to involve EU related promise over circumventing US embargoes.

[RegisterMe]

So first of all props to masterbagger for being one of the few Trump advocates hereabouts, I don't agree with many of his views, but I do appreciate the time he takes to make them clear, and I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of so much stick.

/respect

That having been said, masterbagger, can I ask you a couple of questions?

1. What kind of US would you like to see?
2. Is Trump helping you realise it?

[RegisterMe]

US equivalent of Question Time?

It cut off half way through but is worth a watch anyway .

[Masterbagger]

As for what their "extremist" views are, AOC gave quite a nice break down on twitter today;
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049?s=20

- Medicare for All
- A Living Wage & Labor Rights
- K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
- 100% Renewable Energy
- Fixing the pipes in Flint
- Not Hurting Immigrants
- Holding Wall Street Accountable

More taxes
More taxes less jobs
More taxes
More taxes
State issue state should fix it
Illegal aliens are not immigrants
Talking point without substance

Somewhere along the line people like her emerged who forgot that America is mostly people go work at a job for a living and that everything costs money. She is promising things she can't hope to deliver. You put her on a pedestal so high you can't see that.

So first of all props to masterbagger for being one of the few Trump advocates hereabouts, I don't agree with many of his views, but I do appreciate the time he takes to make them clear, and I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of so much stick.

/respect

That having been said, masterbagger, can I ask you a couple of questions?

1. What kind of US would you like to see?
2. Is Trump helping you realise it?

We have a brief window before my Friday night celebratory beer hits my system so I'll thank you for the sentiment while I have a clear head. I have my views and others have their own. I leave it at that. That's a nice gesture you made. I think I would like you.

About President Trump then. The thing that I uphold the most is the principle that the Constitution should be preserved with the intent of the people who wrote it in mind. I voted for Cruz in the primary because he was a safe bet from a Constitution perspective. He lost. My vote for Trump was cast in what I think was his second debate. Trump and Clinton were questioned about what sort of justice they would appoint to SCOTUS. Clinton waffled into some tangent about the nominee having a certain point of view. It was a nonanswer. Trump flat out stated in plain language he would nominate a Constitutional conservative cast in the same mold as Justice Scalia. Then he went and did it.

You can kind of see that I already got what I wanted. There are plenty of other things that rub me the wrong way these days. I don't like political correctness or identity politics. I don't like constant projecting of racism, nazism, or sexual whatevers. I don't like those things injected into every facet of our existence to serve a political purpose. We are keeping the worst negativity about those things alive and granting them power by refusing to let them die like they should. The people doing it don't seem to understand that my rejection of using those things as a weapon is not a refusal to accept some of the ideas they try to defend by using those words. I do not care. People are people. No modifiers. No one is worth more or less when you attach identity groups.

And about Trump? Trump is the first guy in politics I have ever seen who genuinely does not seem to care about not rocking the boat. Conventional politicians are so consumed with not being controversial that things get ignored because it is insensitive to talk about them. Trump doesn't care. He is a a monumental asshole of epic proportion that steamrolls everything in his path. What he is doing though is expressing things that I think are important. No one should be pressured to feel shame about being American or shame about our flag. Democrats want to divide us into groups and attach labels to us to dictate how there is only one permissible party that will serve our interests. It is tearing us apart. We have one thing that everyone has in common in our nation and we should be celebrating it with maximum effort to make the minor labels count for nothing.

Nothing follows. It takes me a long time to find the right words and the beer caught up with me.

[RegisterMe]

As for what their "extremist" views are, AOC gave quite a nice break down on twitter today;
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049?s=20

- Medicare for All
- A Living Wage & Labor Rights
- K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
- 100% Renewable Energy
- Fixing the pipes in Flint
- Not Hurting Immigrants
- Holding Wall Street Accountable

More taxes
More taxes less jobs
More taxes
More taxes
State issue state should fix it
Illegal aliens are not immigrants
Talking point without substance

Somewhere along the line people like her emerged who forgot that America is mostly people go work at a job for a living and that everything costs money. She is promising things she can't hope to deliver. You put her on a pedestal so high you can't see that.

More taxes != bad taxes

[felter]

As for what their "extremist" views are, AOC gave quite a nice break down on twitter today;
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049?s=20

- Medicare for All
- A Living Wage & Labor Rights
- K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
- 100% Renewable Energy
- Fixing the pipes in Flint
- Not Hurting Immigrants
- Holding Wall Street Accountable

More taxes
More taxes less jobs
More taxes
More taxes
State issue state should fix it
Illegal aliens are not immigrants
Talking point without substance

Somewhere along the line people like her emerged who forgot that America is mostly people go work at a job for a living and that everything costs money. She is promising things she can't hope to deliver. You put her on a pedestal so high you can't see that.

All you seem to care about is taxes, so much so that you wanted the richest of Americans to pay less tax, as they so desperately needed the money to buy that tenth yachts they are so in need of. Do you know that the 3 richest individual people in America, that's Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos poses more money between them than all the poorest 50% of Americans put together. That is half of all the money in America is in the pockets of only 3 men, not 3%, just 3 single individual men and you gave them a tax break, you actually gave them even more money, and gave yourself a pat on the back for doing so. Unless you are one of those top 10% who own the rest of the money, tax them, take some of the wealth they do not need and it will pay for most of the things that the rest of America so dearly need, and it wouldn't even touch your tax no need to tax the poor any more than they already are taxed.

By the way it's not Illegal aliens are not immigrants, it's immigrants are not illegal aliens, that's just showing your arrogance and ignorance to the plight of immigrants, there is no need or room for it, just shows how obnoxious Americans can be about immigration which is even worse, as every American apart from native Americans are immigrants, if you want to use Illegal aliens are not immigrants then you yourself are an illegal immigrant.

[Masterbagger]

Nope, it's irrelevant.

So I think my question wasnt clear. I'll clarify my question - and split it into a few:

- How many immigrants have you personally told - to go to where they came from?
- Have you done it at work?
- Were they non white exclusively, or not?
- Have your friends done so as well with your encouragement?

None.
None.
N/A and wtf does race have to do with anything?
N/A

What I take offense to is that you seem to think I wouldn't. It isn't your moral condemnation restraining me but a lack of appropriate recipients for the words you so desperately want to judge me for. The particular physical attributes involved would have no bearing on my willingness to do it. It isn't my fault that I don't work or associate with people wanting to radically transform my country into something else against my will. If you just want the green light to condemn me then go ahead and do it because I would totally do the behavior you want to bash me for if I thought it was appropriate. You think this discussion is about immigrants or race when it is actually about values. I've already got those and I don't want new ones imposed on me.

All you seem to care about is taxes, so much so that you wanted the richest of Americans to pay less tax, as they so desperately needed the money to buy that tenth yachts they are so in need of. Do you know that the 3 richest individual people in America, that's Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos poses more money between them than all the poorest 50% of Americans put together. That is half of all the money in America is in the pockets of only 3 men, not 3%, just 3 single individual men and you gave them a tax break, you actually gave them even more money, and gave yourself a pat on the back for doing so. Unless you are one of those top 10% who own the rest of the money, tax them, take some of the wealth they do not need and it will pay for most of the things that the rest of America so dearly need, and it wouldn't even touch your tax no need to tax the poor any more than they already are taxed.

By the way it's not Illegal aliens are not immigrants, it's immigrants are not illegal aliens, that's just showing your arrogance and ignorance to the plight of immigrants, there is no need or room for it, just shows how obnoxious Americans can be about immigration which is even worse, as every American apart from native Americans are immigrants, if you want to use Illegal aliens are not immigrants then you yourself are an illegal immigrant.

Appealing to emotions and virtue signalling is not going to work on me. I don't now and won't in the future give two shits about how much money those people have and I want people who come to live here to abide by the processes we established in a very democratic way. You can't attack me with pure outrage or emotion. It does not work.

[fiksal]

Alright, thanks for the answers.

If you just want the green light to condemn me then go ahead and do it because I would totally do the behavior you want to bash me for if I thought it was appropriate.

The only judgement there's from me is my personal opinion. And it's not always useful to a discussion. It is also based on your replies.

You think this discussion is about immigrants or race when it is actually about values. I've already got those and I don't want new ones imposed on me.

It's about many things. Immigrants included. But if we talk about values, which I have not seen where that is happening, so I am not following....
I dont want new values imposed on me either, though I think we are not talking about anything similar even remotely.

[Masterbagger]

More taxes != bad taxes

Let's do an exercise. Do you think there would be a President Trump if not for Obama and Obamacare?

When you get consumed with one angle of what is just or not just you kind of lose track of what people really are. We aren't all dedicated to being morally correct. We work for a living. It is just paychecks and seeing chunks of that check disappear into nothing. Personal aside I saw the people I work with work their ass off and lose a big chunk of the reward for their efforts to that obamacare fine. That money could have been rent, insurance, and car payments. It was less food on their table and less fun things they got to do. It sucked. I would have told them to lie their ass off to the IRS and not pay it but they were better people than I would have been about it. Right, wrong, or matter of perspective. Either way people like them vote and are perfectly capable of sending a clear signal to those who are receptive to it.

[BugMeister]

- watch Trump and his supporters closely..
- his deep fear and insecurity is becoming more obvious with every statement he makes..
- for his supporters, this desperation is reflected in their heightened racist rhetoric..

I expect Boris and the evil Farage to attempt the same course
- deep fears and insecurities are coming to the surface - the search is on for scapegoats,,

the hatred is being escalated daily..
- watch out for a huge propaganda smokescreen..

put your trust in those who care for others..

[Grim Lock]

More taxes != bad taxes

Let's do an exercise. Do you think there would be a President Trump if not for Obama and Obamacare?

When you get consumed with one angle of what is just or not just you kind of lose track of what people really are. We aren't all dedicated to being morally correct. We work for a living. It is just paychecks and seeing chunks of that check disappear into nothing. Personal aside I saw the people I work with work their ass off and lose a big chunk of the reward for their efforts to that obamacare fine. That money could have been rent, insurance, and car payments. It was less food on their table and less fun things they got to do. It sucked. I would have told them to lie their ass off to the IRS and not pay it but they were better people than I would have been about it. Right, wrong, or matter of perspective. Either way people like them vote and are perfectly capable of sending a clear signal to those who are receptive to it.

Lol and yet Trump isn't mentioning nor fixing or improving Obamacare, no you're just trying to come up with justifications for the racist choices you've made.

That is useless beacasue: There are no justifications for racism!!!

But you are right, Trump wouldn't have been elected if Obama the black man had never been elected, had it been a white democrat, the Trumpians would have just aplied their dislike dmocrats goggles on him, but now you used the hate colored democrats goggles, and well that resulted in Trump.

So you say it's obama's fault, i say it's your racist outlook on life that is at fault.

And as you admit yourself, you're not a very good person compared to the people you know, so we the good people should suffer under the false presumptions and misguided fear, just because self proclaimed lyers aren't happy about it, well screw that.

[pjknibbs]

The thing that I uphold the most is the principle that the Constitution should be preserved with the intent of the people who wrote it in mind.

See, that's what I find slightly odd. The people who wrote the original Constitution were rich white slave-owners with the attitudes of their time, 250 years ago. The world has changed since then, which is why there are currently 27 amendments to the Constitution. The fact the Constitution has been amended, and that the ability to amend it exists, surely shows that the people who wrote it knew it wasn't perfect and would need updating?