Random News not worthy of own thread

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Usenko
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Usenko » Sat, 2. Mar 19, 06:19

"Translation error" isn't quite the right term, in that there is no real problem with ambiguity. Jesus is identified clearly in the Gospels, and we know exactly who it is.

The problem here is the sort of problem you always get when you translate a name from one language to another to another. Obviously no two languages have the same sounds, so you always have subtle differences. Concepts translate more easily; I say "chaud" in French, you say "hot" in English, and then we translate that to "Heiß" in German. There's no need to preserve the sounds, you just keep the meaning. But proper names are another matter. Often instead of trying to translate names, you transliterate the sounds.

So in this case, the man in question was known by his friends, family and associates as ישוע (Y'shua) in Hebrew (the traditional ethnic language of Jews; the same name is used in Aramaic, the language people generally spoke in daily life in Judea during the 1st Century).

The Gospels were written in Greek, which was the main language spoken in the Roman Empire. The name "Y'shua" didn't previously have a Greek counterpart, and some of the sounds lacked Greek equivalents (e.g. "sh" was not used in Greek). Therefore the evangelists[1] did the best they could, transliterating it as "Ιησούς" (Iesous).

By the middle ages, Latin was becoming a more popular language than Greek, so most readers used the Latin equivalent. In Latin, the usual transliteration from Greek was "Jesus". The J sound was typically pronounced closer to a "Y" than the modern J, and the last letter was often not voiced, so "Yesu" is a pretty approximation of how their version sounded. But when we get to modern English, we simply use the Latin lettering with English sounds - so the name becomes "Jesus".

So where does the name of the Biblical hero Joshua come into it? Well, there's another peculiarity here. Hebrew is written without vowels in its ancient form. There are little hints that teach you how to pronounce things, but they're complex (my first year Hebrew at Bible college not really being up to the job. :) ) and not 100% reliable. So whilst you can translate concepts with as good fidelity as any other language (better than most ancient languages), actually reproducing the SOUNDS of ancient Hebrew is problematic. Therefore, the most accurate rendering of the name is "Y - sh - w - 'h". "Yeshua" and "Yehoshua" are both acceptable variants. In Latin, "Yehoshua" is mostly transliterated "Joshua". But the added Greek step leads to a slightly different transliteration of the same name (Jesus).

[1] In this context, the word "evangelist" means "one who wrote a Gospel," rather than the current-day meaning of "A person attempting to convert others to a different religion or viewpoint."
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Usenko » Sat, 2. Mar 19, 06:31

Morkonan wrote:
Thu, 28. Feb 19, 20:15
Bishop149 wrote:
Thu, 28. Feb 19, 14:52
It was new to me . . . . . which I found surprising given the amount of Christianity I've been exposed to in my 30 odd years of life.
It got me wondering how many other "Christians" (practising or otherwise) don't know the name of their saviour is a translation error.

I'm aware that the "names of God" are a thing in both Judaism and Islam, but know very little beyond that.
There's a 100 of them in Islam?
The names of God represent some kind of code in Judaism?
There's a lot of apocrypha and cultural/traditional stuff wrapped up in some practices of the Abrahamic faiths. In Judaism, AFAIK, the name of God can not be spoken and/or is sacred. "Code" related words in Judaism probably originate in some kind of hermetic/mysticism practices, seeking further revelations. Christian "code-breakers" exist as well, earnestly believing that "truths" can be found through even deeper study of the Bible. (Numerologist in Judaism and Christianity. I don't know about Islamic numerologist, but I'd assume they exist there, too. Then, there are the Judeo-Christian "mystics" that might have such beliefs that coincide with some experiential focus. IIRC, there are also mystics in Islam.)

IIRC, there was even a sort of Christian monastic order that believed if the 100 names of God, or 100, or 10,000, or however many they believed existed, were spoken aloud, the Universe would End with a "capital "E."" :) They had a list... I can't remember, atm, where their monastery was. Jordon? Syria, maybe? Then again, a tiny little place in the Mediterranean comes to mind. ie: Island monastery? Oh well, it doesn't matter, since it doesn't appear they've finished reading them, yet. :)
You're correct, Mork - you're not supposed to pronounce the Most Holy name of God in Judaism (in fact Modern Jews still prefer to write "G_d" as an homage to this tradition). This name is supposed to be written as יהוה (YHWH), but traditionally the Jews would replace it with "Adonai" (Lord) when reading it aloud. This leads to a little weirdness - when vowels started to be added to Hebrew script, the word "YHWH" was written with the vowels for "Adonai" as a not-so-subtle hint to the reader that they should do this replacement.

Roman scribes were unaware of this nuance (and frankly there was a lack of willingness to listen to Jewish scholars, so such things didn't really get transferred to Christian scholarship until much later). Therefore early Christian translations of the Bible used the word "Jehovah," which is a sort of Frankenstein's monster of both names.
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 2. Mar 19, 06:48

OK, both those posts were genuinely fascinating, thanks, Usenko. I knew the Hebrew name for God was Yahweh, but never knew how that became Jehovah.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Usenko » Sat, 2. Mar 19, 14:54

No problem!

(and aside from us theology nerds, I'm glad my M.Div is useful for someone else . . . ;) )
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 4. Mar 19, 10:20

Usenko wrote:
Sat, 2. Mar 19, 06:19
By the middle ages, Latin was becoming a more popular language than Greek, so most readers used the Latin equivalent. In Latin, the usual transliteration from Greek was "Jesus". The J sound was typically pronounced closer to a "Y" than the modern J, and the last letter was often not voiced, so "Yesu" is a pretty approximation of how their version sounded. But when we get to modern English, we simply use the Latin lettering with English sounds - so the name becomes "Jesus".
This bit is interesting because I've also heard "Jesus" shortened to "Jesu" (pronounced: Jee-soo). Now this was mostly in hymns so I always assumed they did it for musical reasons such as rhyme or timing, but it seems from what you say that this might actually be yet another translational refinement.

Ah yes, the tetragrammaton . . . I think this is what my memory was dredging up when I reference codes, something to do with these letters being the key to all knowledge in kabbalistic tradition?
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 4. Mar 19, 17:09

China bans 23 million citizens from buying travel tickets as part of "social credit" system.

A post with infographics on the Social Credit System in China. Imgur - Title

This is happening in front of our faces. It's "1984" all over again... for realz. China has almost 1.5 billion people. And, it's doing this... thing. How long will it take before people who have a low Social Credit score have to wear a badge on all their clothing?

I am very thankful I got lucky and ended up being born in the U.S.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by felter » Mon, 4. Mar 19, 20:36

Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 4. Mar 19, 17:09
I am very thankful I got lucky and ended up being born in the U.S.
That's pretty debatable. :D

As for china, that idea has been on the go for several years with some degree of it actually working, personally I can see it causing other problems which they won't talk about, they only mention the good things, kind of like Trump and the US government.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 17:59

felter wrote:
Mon, 4. Mar 19, 20:36
Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 4. Mar 19, 17:09
I am very thankful I got lucky and ended up being born in the U.S.
That's pretty debatable. :D

As for china, that idea has been on the go for several years with some degree of it actually working, personally I can see it causing other problems which they won't talk about, they only mention the good things, kind of like Trump and the US government.
I first thought about writing "not being born in China." But, that could be offensive interpreted out-of-context. Then, I thought "born free" but images of lions and activists danced in my head, so.. no. In consideration of time, I just put "in the U.S." I should have written "where my rights as a person are protected."

If Trump "came after me" my government is bound to protect my Rights up to and including calling in an airstrike... Well, it probably wouldn't, but it could - It is bound to protect me from... itself.

That's cool. Much more cooler than "if you criticize the government, we won't let you buy plane tickets online."

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Usenko » Wed, 6. Mar 19, 07:51

Bishop149 wrote:
Mon, 4. Mar 19, 10:20
Usenko wrote:
Sat, 2. Mar 19, 06:19
By the middle ages, Latin was becoming a more popular language than Greek, so most readers used the Latin equivalent. In Latin, the usual transliteration from Greek was "Jesus". The J sound was typically pronounced closer to a "Y" than the modern J, and the last letter was often not voiced, so "Yesu" is a pretty approximation of how their version sounded. But when we get to modern English, we simply use the Latin lettering with English sounds - so the name becomes "Jesus".
This bit is interesting because I've also heard "Jesus" shortened to "Jesu" (pronounced: Jee-soo). Now this was mostly in hymns so I always assumed they did it for musical reasons such as rhyme or timing, but it seems from what you say that this might actually be yet another translational refinement.

Ah yes, the tetragrammaton . . . I think this is what my memory was dredging up when I reference codes, something to do with these letters being the key to all knowledge in kabbalistic tradition?
I knew nothing about Kabbalah, so I had a look at it.

Even as a theology geek, I think "WOW" . . . :)
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by berth » Wed, 6. Mar 19, 23:07

I got quite into the qabalah, kabala, whatever, thing maybe 30 years back. I was fascinated with the Yod-He-Vau-He derivation of Jehovah and the Tree of Life etc.

Usenko's post about the secret names of God reminded me of it - hadn't thought about it in ages.

Fwiw, you might want to check out Darren Aranofsky's 1998 movie Pi, which combines algebra, numerology and qabalism. Nerdgasm! :)

It's a bit gruesome in places, as I recall though.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 7. Mar 19, 18:05

Remember that thing about that guy dying that had all those cryptocurrency whatsits an' stuff???

/sigh

Locked Crypto Wallets Found Empty After CEO Dies With Only Password

Image

"Wow, it'd be great to have an unregulatd universal currency that's untraceable and valued according to how much of it is in use and it'll be stored discretely, easily portable, untraceable and universal and untraceable and vaccinations are bad for you!"

Great idea, poor execution, thanks for playing...

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by red assassin » Thu, 7. Mar 19, 23:30

Morkonan wrote:
Thu, 7. Mar 19, 18:05
"Wow, it'd be great to have an unregulatd universal currency that's untraceable and valued according to how much of it is in use and it'll be stored discretely, easily portable, untraceable and universal and untraceable and vaccinations are bad for you!"

Great idea, poor execution, thanks for playing...
My favourite thing about cryptocurrency is watching in real time as all the cryptocurrency bros who are hyper enthusiastic about their wonderful unregulated new currency run, one by one, like clockwork, into literally all of the reasons we have a regulated currency system. Those who don't learn from history and all that...
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 8. Mar 19, 02:58

red assassin wrote:
Thu, 7. Mar 19, 23:30
My favourite thing about cryptocurrency is watching in real time as all the cryptocurrency bros who are hyper enthusiastic about their wonderful unregulated new currency run, one by one, like clockwork, into literally all of the reasons we have a regulated currency system. Those who don't learn from history and all that...
but the hype tho? :)

If only someone could invent the perfect system, then these bad things wouldn't happen. But, "Imma give Bubba all my monies an he's a cool guy an stuff an doesn't afraid of..." isn't the way to start.

The list of robbed cryptobanks, nefarious scammers, outright thieves grows with the value of the "currency." That's a fact of life in the jungle and I just don't get why people think it can't happen "because its secure." WTF? There is no such thing as "secure" if some human being wants it bad enough and it can be "stolen."

"I can become a jibigilionaire and all I have to do is put some stuff on the USB drive in my hand? Okie dokie..."

Did they ever find this guys body? He was "confirmed dead?" I recall a statement where they couldn't confirm it at first. If so, maybe someone off'd him for the crypto, which wouldn't be surprising. People will kidnap you for a darn kidney, so they'll certainly do worse for a bajillion monies.

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by felter » Sat, 9. Mar 19, 14:12

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 10. Mar 19, 23:25

felter wrote:
Sat, 9. Mar 19, 14:12
He had a whale of a time.
That guy is going to be forever known as the "guy who had his butt sticking out of the mouth of a whale." :)

"You're that guy! The Whale Butt Guy! You're him, right?"

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Alan Phipps » Mon, 11. Mar 19, 11:18

... or just 'Jonah'.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Tue, 12. Mar 19, 05:36

Alan Phipps wrote:
Mon, 11. Mar 19, 11:18
... or just 'Jonah'.
And, I'm sure Jonah got his fair share of ribbing, too.

"Hey, look, it's the "Whale Guy!"
"Yeah, hi. I know. I just-"
"You're that one guy, the one that got pooped on by a whale, right?"
"Well, actually, it wasn-"
"I knew it! You're the "Whale Poop Guy!" Hey, everybody, it's "Wale Poop Guy!"

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 13. Mar 19, 16:38

Worthy of its own thread, but it could get kind of deep.. so:

MIT: Experiment suggests there is no such thing as objective reality.

Well, that should make Trump happy...

But, for myself, it makes me very happy as it confirms my own suspicions. (Which I haven't the knowledge to express mathematically so I can publish a paper and be famous...:) ) Though, I disagree on this implicating a "lack of freedom of choice."

Anyway, very interesting food for thought for those who wonder about such things. :)

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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 18. Mar 19, 13:17

Morkonan wrote:
Wed, 13. Mar 19, 16:38
Worthy of its own thread, but it could get kind of deep.. so:

MIT: Experiment suggests there is no such thing as objective reality.

This seems a bit hand wavy to me.
I don't pretend to understand quantum physics very well but as I understand this experiment correctly.

Observer A: Takes a measurement thus collapsing the waveform and determining the polarisation of a photon.
Observer B: Doesn't take a measurement (or takes a different measurement) and so the polarisation remains in a state of superposition.

Their conclusion: OMG! Their realities are different!! There is no objective reality!
My conclusion: Well duh! I mean yes a person possessing information another does, in a sense "changes their reality" but that's hardly a earth shattering conclusion.


In other news big meteor hits Earth, no one really noticed because it came in over the sea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47607696

We do get pretty damn lucky with these things, the energies involves are staggering. . . . many many nuclear bomb equivalents and yet the damage is proportionally minor because they tend to explode about 20-30km up and the majority of the energy is absorbed by the atmosphere. . . or in this case they explode over the sea.
I am now wondering what it is about that chunk of the Northern hemisphere, however, the three big ones I'm aware of came in: over bearing sea, Tunguska and Chelyabinsk a few years back.
All with in roughly the same area. . . . well, relative to the whole planet at least. Probably just a coincidence, right?
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 18. Mar 19, 20:01

Bishop149 wrote:
Mon, 18. Mar 19, 13:17
..My conclusion: Well duh! I mean yes a person possessing information another does, in a sense "changes their reality" but that's hardly a earth shattering conclusion....
And, saying that their realities are different because of "reasons" is less hand-wavy? :) IOW - They're looking at a way of actually proving it. The goal being there's an objective interpretation of the results saying that there's no objective interpretation of anything... :D

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