Trump

[RegisterMe]

US equivalent of Question Time?

It cut off half way through but is worth a watch anyway .

[Masterbagger]

As for what their "extremist" views are, AOC gave quite a nice break down on twitter today;
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049?s=20

- Medicare for All
- A Living Wage & Labor Rights
- K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
- 100% Renewable Energy
- Fixing the pipes in Flint
- Not Hurting Immigrants
- Holding Wall Street Accountable

More taxes
More taxes less jobs
More taxes
More taxes
State issue state should fix it
Illegal aliens are not immigrants
Talking point without substance

Somewhere along the line people like her emerged who forgot that America is mostly people go work at a job for a living and that everything costs money. She is promising things she can't hope to deliver. You put her on a pedestal so high you can't see that.

So first of all props to masterbagger for being one of the few Trump advocates hereabouts, I don't agree with many of his views, but I do appreciate the time he takes to make them clear, and I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of so much stick.

/respect

That having been said, masterbagger, can I ask you a couple of questions?

1. What kind of US would you like to see?
2. Is Trump helping you realise it?

We have a brief window before my Friday night celebratory beer hits my system so I'll thank you for the sentiment while I have a clear head. I have my views and others have their own. I leave it at that. That's a nice gesture you made. I think I would like you.

About President Trump then. The thing that I uphold the most is the principle that the Constitution should be preserved with the intent of the people who wrote it in mind. I voted for Cruz in the primary because he was a safe bet from a Constitution perspective. He lost. My vote for Trump was cast in what I think was his second debate. Trump and Clinton were questioned about what sort of justice they would appoint to SCOTUS. Clinton waffled into some tangent about the nominee having a certain point of view. It was a nonanswer. Trump flat out stated in plain language he would nominate a Constitutional conservative cast in the same mold as Justice Scalia. Then he went and did it.

You can kind of see that I already got what I wanted. There are plenty of other things that rub me the wrong way these days. I don't like political correctness or identity politics. I don't like constant projecting of racism, nazism, or sexual whatevers. I don't like those things injected into every facet of our existence to serve a political purpose. We are keeping the worst negativity about those things alive and granting them power by refusing to let them die like they should. The people doing it don't seem to understand that my rejection of using those things as a weapon is not a refusal to accept some of the ideas they try to defend by using those words. I do not care. People are people. No modifiers. No one is worth more or less when you attach identity groups.

And about Trump? Trump is the first guy in politics I have ever seen who genuinely does not seem to care about not rocking the boat. Conventional politicians are so consumed with not being controversial that things get ignored because it is insensitive to talk about them. Trump doesn't care. He is a a monumental asshole of epic proportion that steamrolls everything in his path. What he is doing though is expressing things that I think are important. No one should be pressured to feel shame about being American or shame about our flag. Democrats want to divide us into groups and attach labels to us to dictate how there is only one permissible party that will serve our interests. It is tearing us apart. We have one thing that everyone has in common in our nation and we should be celebrating it with maximum effort to make the minor labels count for nothing.

Nothing follows. It takes me a long time to find the right words and the beer caught up with me.

[RegisterMe]

As for what their "extremist" views are, AOC gave quite a nice break down on twitter today;
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049?s=20

- Medicare for All
- A Living Wage & Labor Rights
- K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
- 100% Renewable Energy
- Fixing the pipes in Flint
- Not Hurting Immigrants
- Holding Wall Street Accountable

More taxes
More taxes less jobs
More taxes
More taxes
State issue state should fix it
Illegal aliens are not immigrants
Talking point without substance

Somewhere along the line people like her emerged who forgot that America is mostly people go work at a job for a living and that everything costs money. She is promising things she can't hope to deliver. You put her on a pedestal so high you can't see that.

More taxes != bad taxes

[felter]

As for what their "extremist" views are, AOC gave quite a nice break down on twitter today;
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049?s=20

- Medicare for All
- A Living Wage & Labor Rights
- K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
- 100% Renewable Energy
- Fixing the pipes in Flint
- Not Hurting Immigrants
- Holding Wall Street Accountable

More taxes
More taxes less jobs
More taxes
More taxes
State issue state should fix it
Illegal aliens are not immigrants
Talking point without substance

Somewhere along the line people like her emerged who forgot that America is mostly people go work at a job for a living and that everything costs money. She is promising things she can't hope to deliver. You put her on a pedestal so high you can't see that.

All you seem to care about is taxes, so much so that you wanted the richest of Americans to pay less tax, as they so desperately needed the money to buy that tenth yachts they are so in need of. Do you know that the 3 richest individual people in America, that's Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos poses more money between them than all the poorest 50% of Americans put together. That is half of all the money in America is in the pockets of only 3 men, not 3%, just 3 single individual men and you gave them a tax break, you actually gave them even more money, and gave yourself a pat on the back for doing so. Unless you are one of those top 10% who own the rest of the money, tax them, take some of the wealth they do not need and it will pay for most of the things that the rest of America so dearly need, and it wouldn't even touch your tax no need to tax the poor any more than they already are taxed.

By the way it's not Illegal aliens are not immigrants, it's immigrants are not illegal aliens, that's just showing your arrogance and ignorance to the plight of immigrants, there is no need or room for it, just shows how obnoxious Americans can be about immigration which is even worse, as every American apart from native Americans are immigrants, if you want to use Illegal aliens are not immigrants then you yourself are an illegal immigrant.

[Masterbagger]

Nope, it's irrelevant.

So I think my question wasnt clear. I'll clarify my question - and split it into a few:

- How many immigrants have you personally told - to go to where they came from?
- Have you done it at work?
- Were they non white exclusively, or not?
- Have your friends done so as well with your encouragement?

None.
None.
N/A and wtf does race have to do with anything?
N/A

What I take offense to is that you seem to think I wouldn't. It isn't your moral condemnation restraining me but a lack of appropriate recipients for the words you so desperately want to judge me for. The particular physical attributes involved would have no bearing on my willingness to do it. It isn't my fault that I don't work or associate with people wanting to radically transform my country into something else against my will. If you just want the green light to condemn me then go ahead and do it because I would totally do the behavior you want to bash me for if I thought it was appropriate. You think this discussion is about immigrants or race when it is actually about values. I've already got those and I don't want new ones imposed on me.

All you seem to care about is taxes, so much so that you wanted the richest of Americans to pay less tax, as they so desperately needed the money to buy that tenth yachts they are so in need of. Do you know that the 3 richest individual people in America, that's Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos poses more money between them than all the poorest 50% of Americans put together. That is half of all the money in America is in the pockets of only 3 men, not 3%, just 3 single individual men and you gave them a tax break, you actually gave them even more money, and gave yourself a pat on the back for doing so. Unless you are one of those top 10% who own the rest of the money, tax them, take some of the wealth they do not need and it will pay for most of the things that the rest of America so dearly need, and it wouldn't even touch your tax no need to tax the poor any more than they already are taxed.

By the way it's not Illegal aliens are not immigrants, it's immigrants are not illegal aliens, that's just showing your arrogance and ignorance to the plight of immigrants, there is no need or room for it, just shows how obnoxious Americans can be about immigration which is even worse, as every American apart from native Americans are immigrants, if you want to use Illegal aliens are not immigrants then you yourself are an illegal immigrant.

Appealing to emotions and virtue signalling is not going to work on me. I don't now and won't in the future give two shits about how much money those people have and I want people who come to live here to abide by the processes we established in a very democratic way. You can't attack me with pure outrage or emotion. It does not work.

[fiksal]

Alright, thanks for the answers.

If you just want the green light to condemn me then go ahead and do it because I would totally do the behavior you want to bash me for if I thought it was appropriate.

The only judgement there's from me is my personal opinion. And it's not always useful to a discussion. It is also based on your replies.

You think this discussion is about immigrants or race when it is actually about values. I've already got those and I don't want new ones imposed on me.

It's about many things. Immigrants included. But if we talk about values, which I have not seen where that is happening, so I am not following....
I dont want new values imposed on me either, though I think we are not talking about anything similar even remotely.

[Masterbagger]

More taxes != bad taxes

Let's do an exercise. Do you think there would be a President Trump if not for Obama and Obamacare?

When you get consumed with one angle of what is just or not just you kind of lose track of what people really are. We aren't all dedicated to being morally correct. We work for a living. It is just paychecks and seeing chunks of that check disappear into nothing. Personal aside I saw the people I work with work their ass off and lose a big chunk of the reward for their efforts to that obamacare fine. That money could have been rent, insurance, and car payments. It was less food on their table and less fun things they got to do. It sucked. I would have told them to lie their ass off to the IRS and not pay it but they were better people than I would have been about it. Right, wrong, or matter of perspective. Either way people like them vote and are perfectly capable of sending a clear signal to those who are receptive to it.

[BugMeister]

- watch Trump and his supporters closely..
- his deep fear and insecurity is becoming more obvious with every statement he makes..
- for his supporters, this desperation is reflected in their heightened racist rhetoric..

I expect Boris and the evil Farage to attempt the same course
- deep fears and insecurities are coming to the surface - the search is on for scapegoats,,

the hatred is being escalated daily..
- watch out for a huge propaganda smokescreen..

put your trust in those who care for others..

[Grim Lock]

More taxes != bad taxes

Let's do an exercise. Do you think there would be a President Trump if not for Obama and Obamacare?

When you get consumed with one angle of what is just or not just you kind of lose track of what people really are. We aren't all dedicated to being morally correct. We work for a living. It is just paychecks and seeing chunks of that check disappear into nothing. Personal aside I saw the people I work with work their ass off and lose a big chunk of the reward for their efforts to that obamacare fine. That money could have been rent, insurance, and car payments. It was less food on their table and less fun things they got to do. It sucked. I would have told them to lie their ass off to the IRS and not pay it but they were better people than I would have been about it. Right, wrong, or matter of perspective. Either way people like them vote and are perfectly capable of sending a clear signal to those who are receptive to it.

Lol and yet Trump isn't mentioning nor fixing or improving Obamacare, no you're just trying to come up with justifications for the racist choices you've made.

That is useless beacasue: There are no justifications for racism!!!

But you are right, Trump wouldn't have been elected if Obama the black man had never been elected, had it been a white democrat, the Trumpians would have just aplied their dislike dmocrats goggles on him, but now you used the hate colored democrats goggles, and well that resulted in Trump.

So you say it's obama's fault, i say it's your racist outlook on life that is at fault.

And as you admit yourself, you're not a very good person compared to the people you know, so we the good people should suffer under the false presumptions and misguided fear, just because self proclaimed lyers aren't happy about it, well screw that.

[pjknibbs]

The thing that I uphold the most is the principle that the Constitution should be preserved with the intent of the people who wrote it in mind.

See, that's what I find slightly odd. The people who wrote the original Constitution were rich white slave-owners with the attitudes of their time, 250 years ago. The world has changed since then, which is why there are currently 27 amendments to the Constitution. The fact the Constitution has been amended, and that the ability to amend it exists, surely shows that the people who wrote it knew it wasn't perfect and would need updating?

[Chips]

So, wait, is your definition of "the left" (or extreme left) if they'll raise taxes? If you tax me more you're on the left of the political spectrum? Or am I misunderstanding as that was just a response about policies of the left, rather than why?

[RegisterMe]

More taxes != bad taxes

Let's do an exercise. Do you think there would be a President Trump if not for Obama and Obamacare?

When you get consumed with one angle of what is just or not just you kind of lose track of what people really are. We aren't all dedicated to being morally correct. We work for a living. It is just paychecks and seeing chunks of that check disappear into nothing. Personal aside I saw the people I work with work their ass off and lose a big chunk of the reward for their efforts to that obamacare fine. That money could have been rent, insurance, and car payments. It was less food on their table and less fun things they got to do. It sucked. I would have told them to lie their ass off to the IRS and not pay it but they were better people than I would have been about it. Right, wrong, or matter of perspective. Either way people like them vote and are perfectly capable of sending a clear signal to those who are receptive to it.

Well, I guess one thing to be thankful for is that at least some of those who voted for Trump because of their antagonism towards Obama / Obamacare aren't fearful misogynistic racists full of hate, so will find Trump, his policies, his behaviour and his administration repugnant. And vote him out.

For all that Obamacare was a bit of bodged together compromise (because of GoP opposition and Federal / State separation of powers?) I don't get the hate for it. You have car insurance right? You have buildings insurance on your home and your business premises right? Why no hate for them?

[Rug]

Illegal aliens are not immigrants

And also

People are people. No modifiers. No one is worth more or less when you attach identity groups.

I just can't square those two statements.

How the hell can being someone be illegal anyway ? How does anyone decide that it is legal for some people to move some distance across the face of the planet, but not others ?

I don't understand you Masterbagger. I don't suppose I ever will.

Rug

[Chips]

How the hell can being someone be illegal anyway ? How does anyone decide that it is legal for some people to move some distance across the face of the planet, but not others ?

If you believe in countries/nations/nationalities and our "civilised society", then yes, there's a right to determine if you're allowed into a country and whether your presence is there legally.

If you do not enter via a valid entry point / met the stipulated requirements to enter legally, then you are illegally in that country. It's relatively simple concept - which means I'm guessing you're against our overall societal model of humankind.

Unless you're meaning to talk about refugees and what qualifies? That's entirely different and has a very different framework I think.

[Grim Lock]

Btw what's gonna happen once there's a democratic president again, are the republicans gonna leave? You didn't sound very in love with your country the last time that happened, and since you guys seem to think that you should either fall in line or leave, are you gonna fall in line or leave?

Cause that's actually one of the funniest things when they are defending Trump, them forgetting that they had their turn as the opposition last time, and it sure didn't look any prettier, or more gratefull for beeing in America. Hell who was repsonsible for all that petty rubbish about Obama's birth certificate again? I seem to remember it was this unhealthy looking fat old fart, that couldn't take a joke.

[Masterbagger]

The thing that I uphold the most is the principle that the Constitution should be preserved with the intent of the people who wrote it in mind.

See, that's what I find slightly odd. The people who wrote the original Constitution were rich white slave-owners with the attitudes of their time, 250 years ago. The world has changed since then, which is why there are currently 27 amendments to the Constitution. The fact the Constitution has been amended, and that the ability to amend it exists, surely shows that the people who wrote it knew it wasn't perfect and would need updating?

I bet the list of countries that were founded by rich white men and once practiced slavery isn't going to be short. Slavery only keeps coming up because every other nation that abandoned the practice has been able to leave it in the trash where it belongs. Not here though. We have people that have to continually dredge it up because racism has to be kept on life support at any cost to keep dividing us.

There is a mechanism to change the Constitution. No one is using it because it is too difficult to achieve that complete of a consensus to do it. We aren't fighting over that at all. The battleground now is over stacking courts with partisans who will reinterpret what those Amendments mean. I want to abort that whole process and have the original meanings upheld.

Illegal aliens are not immigrants

And also

People are people. No modifiers. No one is worth more or less when you attach identity groups.

I just can't square those two statements.

How the hell can being someone be illegal anyway ? How does anyone decide that it is legal for some people to move some distance across the face of the planet, but not others ?

I don't understand you Masterbagger. I don't suppose I ever will.

Rug

It similarly puzzles me why no one is condemning every other country on Earth that enforces laws on who can immigrate there. It is one of life's mysteries how something can only be wrong when we do it. No one cares when Canada deports someone.

Well, I guess one thing to be thankful for is that at least some of those who voted for Trump because of their antagonism towards Obama / Obamacare aren't fearful misogynistic racists full of hate, so will find Trump, his policies, his behaviour and his administration repugnant. And vote him out.

For all that Obamacare was a bit of bodged together compromise (because of GoP opposition and Federal / State separation of powers?) I don't get the hate for it. You have car insurance right? You have buildings insurance on your home and your business premises right? Why no hate for them?

It works both ways. As awful as you think Trump might be democrats have reacted to him by moving way the heck out to left field. Plenty of people are not going to find that appealing either. I think his personal faults are going to get overlooked again in the next election because the other choice is going to appear worse.

[Olterin]

Since the re-election has come up, I'd like to ask you a question on that, Masterbagger. Do you think President Trump is capable of starting a war (with, say, Iran) in order to improve his chances at getting re-elected?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if a suitable pretext were found, but then that's just silly old me. I do remember it right that sitting presidents didn't get voted out when the US was at war?

Also, I would like to echo the sentiment of appreciating all the pro-Trump responses even if I don't agree with them.

[Mightysword]

The fact the Constitution has been amended, and that the ability to amend it exists, surely shows that the people who wrote it knew it wasn't perfect and would need updating?

Then "do" it. It is as you say there exist an proper avenue to take, so why all of these hacks and work around? Because as I had said months ago, there is no "champion" here, just a bunch pots calling the kettle black.

There is currently a movement to push a certain law that will allows the state to remove the name of the candidates from the ballot unless they release a 5 years tax return. Now obviously it's something targetting Trump specifically, a few months ago I came across this discussion, and it went something like this:

- A: yeah we should do this, this will prevent Trump even being a candidate in our state!
- B: Eh I don't think it'll really matter, it's not like he will win those states that managed to pass this law anyway.
- A: But but, it does matter! It will deny him being an option that people can vote for. So even if he won again, instead of losing by 2mil of the popular votes, he may lose by 20mil instead. It will further de-legitimatize his presidency! Also it will helps with the Congress race due to the down ballot effect.
- C (aka someone like me): So ... you're talking about creating a specific law to target a specific candidate, to deny the voters the option of the current sitting president, on top of the fact you are openly admitting by doing so it will also skew the race in Congress ... and you still can talk about the "legitimacy of the vote" with a straight face?

And something like that can be seen in just about any political arena, be it about immigrant, tax, discrimination, the supreme court ...etc... Everyone have their heads so deep in their own arse that the only justice they can recognize is the one carrying their own branch while being blind to the hypocrite that they are.

[RegisterMe]

Well, I guess one thing to be thankful for is that at least some of those who voted for Trump because of their antagonism towards Obama / Obamacare aren't fearful misogynistic racists full of hate, so will find Trump, his policies, his behaviour and his administration repugnant. And vote him out.

For all that Obamacare was a bit of bodged together compromise (because of GoP opposition and Federal / State separation of powers?) I don't get the hate for it. You have car insurance right? You have buildings insurance on your home and your business premises right? Why no hate for them?

It works both ways. As awful as you think Trump might be democrats have reacted to him by moving way the heck out to left field. Plenty of people are not going to find that appealing either. I think his personal faults are going to get overlooked again in the next election because the other choice is going to appear worse.

Sure, it works both ways, no argument there. Leave aside whether the US would benefit from tacking left some and you have to accept that some of the reaction is down to the demonisation of the Dems by Trump / the GoP. Whatever else you think of Trump he is doing an extremely good job of throwing shit at the Dems, and the Squad" in particular.

Can I get your comments on my "car insurance vs Obamacare" question about please? I'm genuinely curious. I really don't get the hate for Obamacare.

[Grim Lock]

All i'm seeing is an attempt at trying to get racism justified and forcing us to consider it an equally valid political consideration as f.e. trying to save the ****** planet.