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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 01:02

mrbadger wrote:
Fri, 11. Sep 20, 22:23
Even four more years of Trump won't do any more damage to the US than they were doing to themselves before he got elected.
If only everyone are "willing and capable" of understand that ... I bet if that's case, either we wouldn't get to this point in the first place, or we would still be able to fix it tomorrow.

One of the things I have been saying is as bad as the current politic is, it's not what scare me, what scare me is the trajectory. Trump is like a wound that is now fester, and got people finally notice because of the smell. But the 'cuts' that it's festering out of had been inflicted since sometime ago. Both the left and the right want to deny it, but they're both responsible for those wounds in the first places, trying to carve out their own pieces of the meat. A good president would at least slow down the progression, or even try to heal/reverse it. A bad one like Trump at worst, simply accelerates the rotting process, but he's by no mean the one who started it. That means unless something more fundamental change to reverse the state of our politic, the trend will continue.

We maybe (and hopefully) getting close to get rid of Trump, but giving the usual hysteria and muppetry surrounded our political system and society at the moment, we're hardly making any improvement. So the real recovery is probably still some distant away.
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Re: Trump

Post by mrbadger » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 10:25

Even my favourite photography youtube channels are starting to talk about the election now.
'Three Blind Men and an Elephant' just started a new series, which I though was going to be on the history of Hasselblad (Look, I can dream can't I?), but episode one they just released is all about this bloomin election. Sure they've done it well, but I want to know about the history of Hallelblad, not how the US is going down the pan.

I keep looking on ebay for old ones that take film. The development costs would be high, but I still want one. Their cheapest digital (an updated moonlanding 'replica') is outside my budget for the body and their version of a kit lens.
To get the full 'dream' setup I'd have to convince my wife to sell our house......
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:01

You get politics from photography channels, we get fascism from the white house. It's horrible for everyone.
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Re: Trump

Post by notaterran » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:30

Another monument to racism is coming down, this time in Virginia. In Charlottesville! This is way overdue, but better late than never:
The statue of a Confederate soldier, flanked by a cannon and ammunition, has stood at the county courthouse in Charlottesville, Virginia, since 1909, more than 40 years after the Civil War.

It was christened "At Ready," and the statue's installation during Jim Crow sent a signal to many that resounded for decades -- in a city that renewed its association with deadly racial violence in 2017.
Link

Republicans must realize by now that the Confederacy is not a winning issue for them, and I wonder if Trump will finally abstain from defending those ****** people.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:52

notaterran wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:30
Another monument to racism is coming down, this time in Virginia. In Charlottesville! This is way overdue, but better late than never:
The statue of a Confederate soldier, flanked by a cannon and ammunition, has stood at the county courthouse in Charlottesville, Virginia, since 1909, more than 40 years after the Civil War.

It was christened "At Ready," and the statue's installation during Jim Crow sent a signal to many that resounded for decades -- in a city that renewed its association with deadly racial violence in 2017.
Link

Republicans must realize by now that the Confederacy is not a winning issue for them, and I wonder if Trump will finally abstain from defending those ****** people.
Sadly, I could pretty well guarantee you that this wouldn't have happened if Virginia's legislature hadn't flipped blue in the 2018 midterms. I really wish I could completely understand how this country went from universally thinking Nazis were bad in the 1940's to the GOP welcoming them into their ranks.
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Re: Trump

Post by mrbadger » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 21:22

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:01
You get politics from photography channels, we get fascism from the white house. It's horrible for everyone.
I recall a quote from one of my all time favourite Science Fiction series Babylon Five. I think possibly said by a Technomage:

No Evil man ever seized power, they all had it handed to them

You can argue definitions of evil all day. Fascists in Germany didn't think they were evil. They probably don't think they're evil anywhere in the world now. Evil is a subjective term most often applied by the winners.

Like terrorism.

The original Americans to fight against the British, at least to start with fit every definition of terrorist. As do the French resistance of WW2. France surrendered peacefully. Things weren't great, but the resistance caused far more problems than they ever solved. In fact they caused the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of French people, killing many themselves. Now they're honoured as the great fighters for freedom, a myth created after the fact to gloss over the truth.

A terrorist is only a terrorist if they're not fighting for something you want. We called the People fighting in Ireland terrorists because no-one wanted to admit they had a point. Once we accepted they did, the fighting stopped (apart from criminals that everyone wanted to hunt down), and talks started.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 21:37

mrbadger wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 21:22
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:01
You get politics from photography channels, we get fascism from the white house. It's horrible for everyone.
I recall a quote from one of my all time favourite Science Fiction series Babylon Five. I think possibly said by a Technomage:

No Evil man ever seized power, they all had it handed to them

You can argue definitions of evil all day. Fascists in Germany didn't think they were evil. They probably don't think they're evil anywhere in the world now. Evil is a subjective term most often applied by the winners.

Like terrorism.

The original Americans to fight against the British, at least to start with fit every definition of terrorist. As do the French resistance of WW2. France surrendered peacefully. Things weren't great, but the resistance caused far more problems than they ever solved. In fact they caused the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of French people, killing many themselves. Now they're honoured as the great fighters for freedom, a myth created after the fact to gloss over the truth.

A terrorist is only a terrorist if they're not fighting for something you want. We called the People fighting in Ireland terrorists because no-one wanted to admit they had a point. Once we accepted they did, the fighting stopped (apart from criminals that everyone wanted to hunt down), and talks started.
I'm pretty sure the German citizens and political leaders that were slaughtered for Hitler's rise to power and the Jews that were brutalized, tortured, and murdered by the Nazis would resoundingly disagree with you. Also, the original Americans and their progeny were pretty ****** depraved as well when you consider the practice of slavery and slaughter of natives to damn near extinction. If you don't see evil in that, I don't know what to say.
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Re: Trump

Post by Santi » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 23:33

Every country at one point of their history has been "depraved and evil", but civilization moves forward and gets refined and so on. I don't celebrate the bad deeds of my ancestors nor I am being ashamed of them. The important thing is to find closure for those bad deeds. And make sure they do not happen again, something we are clearly very unsuccessful at.

History gets rewritten according to new interpretations, and heroes of old are now villains and viceversa. That is good in general, informative, but a really bad idea when is used in politics.

Politically Trump is a clear step back, but as others pointed out, it is not the root of the problem, he is not the cause of the regression we are seeing in society. The rise of populism, extreme political views, fake news, violent protests, hate to religions or individuals, etc. Has been going on way before Trump got elected.

What happened with Trump is that he has been a massive "boombox" due to the frenzy of coverage and love/hate he gets in all the media, lots of Trump policies will not change that much if Biden wins the election, they will get a superficial makeover, but they will be pretty much the same. And I am really interested to see what kind of coverage Biden gets, not only for those policies, but for his tenure if we wins.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 23:47

You guys keep saying “Trump is not the root of the problem” and who here has said that he is? I know a lot of the problems in the US can be traced back to its founding and even beyond, in some cases. But you’re acting if that gives him some kind of pass for what he does today in the here and now.

No, he’s not the root or origination of our issues but he is the gear that’s accelerating those problems today. He is the one consciously choosing his actions. He is the source of the problems he is creating.

You can blame someone for starting a fire. But you can also blame the other person for dumping fuel on the fire too. It’s not an either/or choice.
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Re: Trump

Post by Santi » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 01:49

Yes, as I said he is a "boombox" or amplifier, but what adds more fuel to the fire, the stupid things he says in Twitter, or the coverage he gets?

It is not giving him a pass, I just think that there is a lot of misinformation regarding Trump, that what he does or says, gets blown out to cosmic catastrophic proportions, when the majority of it should be either ignored or ridiculized, because it is just garbage. All those bad policies he implements, they are exactly the same that many other advanced countries have. I cannot see much difference between Republican and Democrats political tactics, both of them are very poor, to say the least, and very confrontational, the media has totally lost the plot in their chase of clicks, likes, money or influence.

I really dislike (a lot) the current climate where you either are pro Trump or against Trump and the moral judgement that comes from it. There are a lot of people that just do not give a fig about Trump, but still have their opinions, and they shouldn't be policed and judged by either camp. This is something that people fail to understand because they are so entrenched in their pro/against positions. In social media this reaches ridiculous proportions.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 02:17

A few hundred pages ago I posted a link to a rap video called "I'm not racist". It was... powerful. It elicited reactions.

Well, in the interests of balance, here's some... balance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL4q_InqV-c
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 08:27

Santi wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 01:49
Yes, as I said he is a "boombox" or amplifier, but what adds more fuel to the fire, the stupid things he says in Twitter, or the coverage he gets?

It is not giving him a pass, I just think that there is a lot of misinformation regarding Trump, that what he does or says, gets blown out to cosmic catastrophic proportions, when the majority of it should be either ignored or ridiculized, because it is just garbage. All those bad policies he implements, they are exactly the same that many other advanced countries have. I cannot see much difference between Republican and Democrats political tactics, both of them are very poor, to say the least, and very confrontational, the media has totally lost the plot in their chase of clicks, likes, money or influence.

I really dislike (a lot) the current climate where you either are pro Trump or against Trump and the moral judgement that comes from it. There are a lot of people that just do not give a fig about Trump, but still have their opinions, and they shouldn't be policed and judged by either camp. This is something that people fail to understand because they are so entrenched in their pro/against positions. In social media this reaches ridiculous proportions.
Here's the thing. The man child is the president. The coverage isn't because Trump said it, it's because the president said it. If Trump wasn't president, hardly anyone would give a shit what the Oompa Loompa says. But since he is, the things he says carries consequences, not just here but abroad as well. It was ruled some time ago that Twitter was a legit public governance communication platform, which is why he was told he can't block US citizens on Twitter. He's even issued orders via twitter, ffs. This isn't something we can have both ways.

Personally, I wish Trump would stay the hell off twitter. If he spent half the time he does on twitter actually governing, things might look different. Instead we get retweets of his followers in golf carts chanting "white power!" and calls for civil war and armed responses to state officials enacting public safety measures and a plethora of lies and disinformation.

Lets compare and contrast something.

At 100 days in office for Obama, Faux News was criticizing Obama for ordering a hamburger with Dijon mustard with Hannity smugly saying "Enjoy your fancy hamburger, Mr. President", while every other news agency largely applauded Obama's efforts and were focused on his governance. Obama's first policy implementations were successful and there was virtually nothing that marred his first 100 days in office. His approval rating was 65% at the end of that period.

At 100 days in office for Trump, the only accomplishment of Trumps was the nomination of Neil Gorsuch to the supreme court. Even with a republican majority in the Senate and House, he failed to pass any major legislation, including obtaining funding for his stupid wall. Instead, he issued 24 executive orders (which btw, were more than any other president since WW2 in their first 100 days). By this time, the lies had already started from the WH, beginning with the size of the inauguration crowd and the weather conditions during the inauguration, to Kellyanne Conway making up bs about Iraqi refugees in Kentucky being responsible for the Bowling Green massacre. Attacks on the press were ramped up and only conspiracy theory networks were invited to certain press conference events. His approval rating was between 40-42% at the end of that period, the lowest ever for a first term president in their first 100 days.

It's the difference between calm and chaos. Some people may not have agreed with Obama's positions or policies, but we weren't in "the sky is falling" territory under him. Can't say the same for Trump.

Also, don't forget what's going on right now. Trump is openly attacking our voting systems, setting the stage for him to cry foul when he looses the election. Even Roger Stone is telling Trump to declare martial law after he looses. He's attacking civil rights movements. He's attacking public safety responses to COVID. He's welcoming Q anon and other conspiracy nut public figures into his ranks (like the demon sperm doctor). How is any of this behavior even remotely close to "presidential"?

What's happening here isn't political discourse. Sure, there's some of that happening but the vast majority is amazement that this is coming from the president of the US. And it's always, always, Trump supporters that say "derp we used to be able to talk to each other, why can't we do that?" right after they're accusing liberals of being socialists or communists or, laughably, Nazis, make some racial attacks on blacks or Mexicans, brag about the size of their gun collection while making veiled threats to shoot democrats, and cheer on white supremacists for killing people they don't like all while receiving permission and encouragement from Trump. So yeah, politics used to be civil. But this is what it is today. And if anyone has turned this into pro-Trump or anti-Trump, it's Trump himself when he declared that anyone who wasn't with him was an enemy. If your government leader said that you were his/her enemy, wouldn't you fight back?
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 11:53

Great post Vertigo.
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Re: Trump

Post by mrbadger » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 16:59

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 21:37
I'm pretty sure the German citizens and political leaders that were slaughtered for Hitler's rise to power and the Jews that were brutalized, tortured, and murdered by the Nazis would resoundingly disagree with you. Also, the original Americans and their progeny were pretty ****** depraved as well when you consider the practice of slavery and slaughter of natives to damn near extinction. If you don't see evil in that, I don't know what to say.
You missed my point. Other people thought what the germans did, or some of them did, were evil. If you go look at some of their war memorials and see how graphic they are (as opposed to the dignified ones in other countries), you can see they've no interest in hiding their past. It surprised me when I first saw them.

I meant how the people doing those things viewed themselves. You need only watch, or learn about the Neurenburg triels to understand this. As for the terrorist points? I stand by what I said.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 17:34

mrbadger wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 16:59
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 21:37
I'm pretty sure the German citizens and political leaders that were slaughtered for Hitler's rise to power and the Jews that were brutalized, tortured, and murdered by the Nazis would resoundingly disagree with you. Also, the original Americans and their progeny were pretty ****** depraved as well when you consider the practice of slavery and slaughter of natives to damn near extinction. If you don't see evil in that, I don't know what to say.
You missed my point. Other people thought what the germans did, or some of them did, were evil. If you go look at some of their war memorials and see how graphic they are (as opposed to the dignified ones in other countries), you can see they've no interest in hiding their past. It surprised me when I first saw them.

I meant how the people doing those things viewed themselves. You need only watch, or learn about the Neurenburg triels to understand this. As for the terrorist points? I stand by what I said.
Well if you're saying they're delusional, then I completely agree with you. But we don't ask criminals if they think they were justified in their actions, we ask a jury to decide that. The difference here is that we're potentially facing today is that we, the jury, may have to forcibly impose our judgement on Trump if he tries to subvert our will once the election has been decided.
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Re: Trump

Post by fiksal » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 18:59

So you guys mentioned Stone, did someone post any quotes yet?

Here are some

To safeguard Trump’s position, Stone called for federal authorities to seize ballots in Nevada, for FBI agents to physically block certain voters from casting their ballots, and for Trump to use his powers for widespread arrests to solidify his power, Media Matters first reported.

Under martial law and the Insurrection Act, Trump will have “the authority” to arrest Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Apple CEO Tim Cook, “the Clintons” and “anybody else who can be proven to be involved in illegal activity,” Stone said. He also called for the immediate arrest of former defense secretary James Mattis for “sedition,” apparently because he feared Trump was unfit for office, according to Washington Post journalist’s to Bob Woodward’s upcoming book, “Rage.”

In addition, Stone warned, journalist also risk arrest. “If the Daily Beast is involved in provably seditious ... acts” in a new Trump future, their “entire staff can be taken into custody and their office can be shut down.” “They want to play war, this is war,” he added.
https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/roger-st ... 25669.html
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:09

I didn't quote him but yeah. Not very confident they can win if they're suggesting using martial law, are they?
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Re: Trump

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:43

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:09
I didn't quote him but yeah. Not very confident they can win if they're suggesting using martial law, are they?
I can see this happening, especailly if Trump does lose. Then expect a full scale revolt / civil war.

This is a dark path, but I cam see it happening if Trump gets his way. He is desperate to cling onto power, I wouldn't put it past him.

Sorry to say, your country is heading into dictatorship / hell regime. And Trump will love every minute of it.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:57

matthewfarmery wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:43
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:09
I didn't quote him but yeah. Not very confident they can win if they're suggesting using martial law, are they?
I can see this happening, especailly if Trump does lose. Then expect a full scale revolt / civil war.

This is a dark path, but I cam see it happening if Trump gets his way. He is desperate to cling onto power, I wouldn't put it past him.

Sorry to say, your country is heading into dictatorship / hell regime. And Trump will love every minute of it.
I hope that doesn't end up being the case but I wouldn't put it past him either. If that day comes, it will certainly be a day to mourn but I will fight for this country and I'm confident there will be many others that will as well. It's not something I relish but if that's what our last option is, then so be it.
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Re: Trump

Post by matthewfarmery » Sun, 13. Sep 20, 20:13

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:57
matthewfarmery wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:43
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 13. Sep 20, 19:09
I didn't quote him but yeah. Not very confident they can win if they're suggesting using martial law, are they?
I can see this happening, especailly if Trump does lose. Then expect a full scale revolt / civil war.

This is a dark path, but I cam see it happening if Trump gets his way. He is desperate to cling onto power, I wouldn't put it past him.

Sorry to say, your country is heading into dictatorship / hell regime. And Trump will love every minute of it.
I hope that doesn't end up being the case but I wouldn't put it past him either. If that day comes, it will certainly be a day to mourn but I will fight for this country and I'm confident there will be many others that will as well. It's not something I relish but if that's what our last option is, then so be it.
I also hope it doesn't come to this either. But this is Trump, he has tried to play the dictators card a few times now. By trying to delay the election, then sending federal officers to ballot boxes, and of course, not going to acknowledge if the result if things don't go his way. everything he has said, to me, he is getting desperate, backed into a corner and no way out. And that is most dangerous. Ge has made a mess of things over Tick tok, with china. and the middle east. But he still craves power. And sadly, he will stop at nothing to keep that power. So expect anything to happen. While his supporters continue to cheer him on while blind to the dangers themselves.


A dark cloud is looming, and the wind is blowing it inland. there might still be time for it to change course, but that is up to Trump.
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