Trump

[Grim Lock]

That's not really fair. Mitch has flat out said he's going to filibuster anything the democrats pass through the house. The GOP has shown no to very little willingness to draft bipartisan legislation, and Trump vetos any legislation that doesn't give him what he wants, which is why the government shutdown happened last December when congress didn't give him money for that dumb wall.

The house is doing everything it can. Without a significant number of defections in the senate, most legislation dies there, and the rest, most likely, dies with Trump. At present, there is little that can be done.

And that is why i am maintaining that US politics is broken to the core, if a president can get away with that many blatant lies just because it's dependant on how much power the party that opposes him by default anyway has or has not, that country doesn't actually have any unbiased checks and balances in place. Justice in the US is not blind when it should be.

[Vertigo 7]

It's never quite that simple.

By and large, the US government has done quite a lot of good for the country, until recently. The problem is, when the world became connected through the interwebs, the government did not move to keep pace with this new world. Now we have open platforms where any politician can spin their own version of events without debate, other entities can say whatever they want to influence public opinion, foreign powers are able to reach American voters to push their agendas. It's become such a dizzying onslaught of BS, the truth gets lost among the noise.

The result is you have more and more people that give up thinking for themselves and blindly accept political opinion or agenda as factual information. That is where we've lost several steps. Critical thinking needs to take a higher priority.

We want to believe our political leaders have our best interests in mind. But they need to earn that trust instead of it being blindly granted, and then call them on it if they abuse that trust.

[Grim Lock]

It's never quite that simple.

By and large, the US government has done quite a lot of good for the country, until recently. The problem is, when the world became connected through the interwebs, the government did not move to keep pace with this new world. Now we have open platforms where any politician can spin their own version of events without debate, other entities can say whatever they want to influence public opinion, foreign powers are able to reach American voters to push their agendas. It's become such a dizzying onslaught of BS, the truth gets lost among the noise.

The result is you have more and more people that give up thinking for themselves and blindly accept political opinion or agenda as factual information. That is where we've lost several steps. Critical thinking needs to take a higher priority.

We want to believe our political leaders have our best interests in mind. But they need to earn that trust instead of it being blindly granted, and then call them on it if they abuse that trust.

I'm sorry, still nothing there to convince me the US doesn't have an serious fundamental problem baked right into the political process. You just don't seem to aply your justice system equally it totally depends on who is in power and where.

[Vertigo 7]

It's never quite that simple.

By and large, the US government has done quite a lot of good for the country, until recently. The problem is, when the world became connected through the interwebs, the government did not move to keep pace with this new world. Now we have open platforms where any politician can spin their own version of events without debate, other entities can say whatever they want to influence public opinion, foreign powers are able to reach American voters to push their agendas. It's become such a dizzying onslaught of BS, the truth gets lost among the noise.

The result is you have more and more people that give up thinking for themselves and blindly accept political opinion or agenda as factual information. That is where we've lost several steps. Critical thinking needs to take a higher priority.

We want to believe our political leaders have our best interests in mind. But they need to earn that trust instead of it being blindly granted, and then call them on it if they abuse that trust.

I'm sorry, still nothing there to convince me the US doesn't have an serious fundamental problem baked right into the political process. You just don't seem to aply your justice system equally it totally depends on who is in power and where.

Generally speaking, most of the elected officials are more moderate than what you're seeing today. I wouldn't even call Trump "extreme right". I would call him a self absorbed imbecilic racist that's forced hard divisions between the left and right.

I said it a while back, we're in a unique situation with this current administration. He has made the republican party leaders swear oaths of fealty to him that has made his parties priority to Trump, party, country - in that order. And with the current stack of officials, the best way to fight back is to stalemate the administration as much as possible.

[Grim Lock]

Yeah and then once a democrat gets into power, the republicans will stalemate them as much as possible and after that vice versa again. I am maintaining my it's broken to the core opinion. So sorry

[Observe]

One thing is clear. Criticisms leveled against Trump personally, are taken personally by his supporters. When we rail against Trump the liar, his supports feel that we are calling them liars. When we call Trump a racist, his supporters hear us calling them racists. When we criticize Trumps misogyny, his supporters hear us saying that they hate women. When we attack Trump directly, we are attacking the identity of people who voted for him.

That approach won't work. Instead, we need to focus on what's wrong with America and how to fix it. Clue number one: the problem is not Trump and it is not his supporters.

[Grim Lock]

Though i agree with you totally Observe, i'm not super-interested in helping solve the problem (ill reserve that particular energey for my own country, i'm sure patriots understand), so ill mostly be making fun of Trump.

Though it seems to me the biggest problem the US is that they can't even begin to come together on agreeing what the cause of the problem is, let alone a solution, so i might be rather cynical again, but i've only seen or read about changes like that happen after something truly horrible on a massive scale happened. Not that i think something horrible is gonna happen that soon, i think this is going to eb and flow on for twenty years orso before some global economic crash either caused by or massively amplified by climate change and massive inequality will cause some powder keg somewhere to explode and snowball into something i can't really begin to imagine what it will look like.

Any positve suggestions on how you think this will play out on the longer term?

[Observe]

Not that i think something horrible is gonna happen that soon, i think this is going to eb and flow on for twenty years or so before some global economic crash either caused by or massively amplified by climate change and massive inequality will cause some powder keg somewhere to explode and snowball into something i can't really begin to imagine what it will look like.

Any positve suggestions on how you think this will play out on the longer term?

We have a several-pronged pitchfork aimed at us. Climate change, extinction of species, robotics, AI and danger of nuclear war. As these forces continue to converge, we will be faced with large scale human displacement (read refugees), shortages of food and massive unemployment. In my mind, we need to re-invent our economic system, do what we can to mitigate climate change, see that we don't continue to destroy life on this planet and reverse the popular fantasy of nationalism and separatism.

If we are to hold on to Capitalism, we need to invent a new version that maximizes human well-being. Our current form, is resulting in a huge increase in suicide, violence, drug addiction etc. Life expectancy in the United States is continuing to decline. Local shops are laying off workers and are closing in favor of Amazon production lines.

So, we create an economy where humans are more important than money and where the unit of value is people not dollars. We can still have Capitalism, but the incentive is to enrich human creativity and freedom, rather than to amass endless cash.

The trouble with Trump's approach, is he doesn't understand the trajectory that we are on. The coal mining industry is in decline. No matter what Trump does, those jobs won't be coming back. Truck drivers will be soon be threatened by self-driving vehicles. The list of things that Trump does not understand is long. All these challenges and realities affect conservatives and liberals alike. Whether it be a powder keg as you fear, or that people come to their senses before such harshness, is hard to predict.

[Masterbagger]

@Masterbagger, you do realise there is a good chance that one of those so called Democrats are going to be your next President. Think on it like this, at least if that happens you will know how that 60% feel about Trump.

I do expect democrats to someday win again and start enacting their policies. Congress and the Executive branch have flipped many times in my lifetime. They will again. I'll survive them until they piss people off enough to vote them out. It's our way.

One thing is clear. Criticisms leveled against Trump personally, are taken personally by his supporters. When we rail against Trump the liar, his supports feel that we are calling them liars. When we call Trump a racist, his supporters hear us calling them racists. When we criticize Trumps misogyny, his supporters hear us saying that they hate women. When we attack Trump directly, we are attacking the identity of people who voted for him.

That approach won't work. Instead, we need to focus on what's wrong with America and how to fix it. Clue number one: the problem is not Trump and it is not his supporters.

It would be accurate to say that accusations of that sort are not being listened to on my end anymore. I don't expect the hatred and derangement to stop. There is no point now. That ship has sailed.

[Mightysword]

Though i agree with you totally Observe, i'm not super-interested in helping solve the problem (ill reserve that particular energey for my own country, i'm sure patriots understand), so ill mostly be making fun of Trump.

The thing is, you don't have to be a non-American to adopt that attitude as I can assure you many American have the same attitude. And I'm pretty sure whatever country you hail from a lot of your compatriots have the same attitude about your own nation. It 'feels good' to get angry and enrage of what you perceive as injustice, it's like a dose of drug that give people the occasional high. But to be arsed doing SOMETHING about it? Too much work. Ask people these two questions:

- Which country do you hail from?
- And what have you done personally to help improve the most pressing and critical issue of your own country?

For most people, the answer would be "I feel enrage and talk shit about it", and that's it. There is simply too much cynicism. It will take a certain type of leader to stand up and side "I don't give two shit about whose fault it is, we are in a mess and we need to find a way out!". But that's not gonna happen, because these days it's better to blasting the voters the flaws of your opponents then talking about your own merit. The more you can convince others their problems is that other guy's fault, the higher your stock can be as comparing to just offering your own solution. And it's the same with US or UK, or anywhere else. When I watched the Brexit stuffs when Theresa May was the PM, Jeremy Corbyn was the most punch-able guy for me. Because holy crap I think every single vid that I saw him talking in the parliament it's always the same script. I was like "dude, you have something else to say beside repeating "the government has failed" for the 100th time?"


I know most of you guys will not agree with whatever Masterbarger said, just like neither of the party will agree with anything the other side regardless of it's right or wrong. But there is one thing he often said:

- If you want to beat Trump, all you have to do is to present a better candidate then him.

That's absolutely correct, and you don't have to be a Trump supporter to say that. And you know what, I don't believe anyone can convince others people of that as long as they have an obsession with Trump. Why? You won't change the opinion of his hardcore supporters, and if he's as bad as people claim him to be, then do you think the "reasonable and informed" really need to be convinced daily? That is why I'm actually ok with the current Democrat debate pre-primary, for the most part their candidates are being moderated about it. It's also why it kinda piss me off that after each debates, I see the so called "political" strategists saying that Candidate should be focus on Trump's fault more. It makes me worry that once the real primary season starts all the Democrat candidates gonna go full retard again.

And if the let themselves pull into that kind of game, then guess who have more experience on the field.

[Grim Lock]

I've done most drugs, shaking a fist at government can't be described as a dose of drug to give you an occasional high. But i get your point, on the other hand, even though i've plenty of energy actively trying to affect some positivity in my own country, most of that isn't politically colored at all btw. But currently im pretty happy with the status quo, we dodged a bullet two years ago, and boy did me and my family work to prevent our own blond idiot to arise over here. (my half sister and a handfull of relatives are actual politicians, so i've got easy access to al kinds of things i can do politically)

But to be fair, a lot of people just have too ****** jobs and living conditions that having dealt with the BS they are confronted with every day you can't fairly expect them to do more then vent their frustrations. I'm not a fan of putting people down just because "they aren't actively doing something about it" there's plenty of respectable reasons not to. Hell ideally that's why we've got politicians, they are there to do the legwork based on the opinions of people that actually work for a living.

[Bishop149]

The house is doing everything it can. Without a significant number of defections in the senate, most legislation dies there, and the rest, most likely, dies with Trump. At present, there is little that can be done.

This is all true.
It does not, however, constitute an excuse not to make the attempt.
Resistance, even if token and doomed to failure, must be offered. Otherwise it will be interpreted as tacit acceptance of the unacceptable.

[Vertigo 7]

The house is doing everything it can. Without a significant number of defections in the senate, most legislation dies there, and the rest, most likely, dies with Trump. At present, there is little that can be done.

This is all true.
It does not, however, constitute an excuse not to make the attempt.
Resistance, even if token and doomed to failure, must be offered. Otherwise it will be interpreted as tacit acceptance of the unacceptable.

They are fighting back. Like I said, they sue the administration every time he does something stupid - that's always a back and forth legal battle that takes months if not years to resolve. And now with democrats having a 36 seat majority in the house, BS republican bills never make it to the senate floor.

[Mightysword]

But to be fair, a lot of people just have too ****** jobs and living conditions that having dealt with the BS they are confronted with every day you can't fairly expect them to do more then vent their frustrations. I'm not a fan of putting people down just because "they aren't actively doing something about it" there's plenty of respectable reasons not to. Hell ideally that's why we've got politicians, they are there to do the legwork based on the opinions of people that actually work for a living.

It's not about putting people down, it's about stating facts. That's simply age old human's mentality. Like how you can get the youth and students to scream and protest, they can sign up for 100+ online petition, they can +like 1000 rant post on the forum, they can skip line to join protest downtown. But get up early and get in line to vote? Sorry can't be arsed.

And I always say: you have time to complain about something, you have time to do something about it. Your life suck? Complaining about it won't make it better, do something meaningful about it will often improve it.

This is all true.
It does not, however, constitute an excuse not to make the attempt.
Resistance, even if token and doomed to failure, must be offered. Otherwise it will be interpreted as tacit acceptance of the unacceptable.

Yeah ... like how Republican mounted repeated attempts (somewhere around 70 attempts) to repeal Obama care when there wasn't a snowball in hell it could have passed? They were done as nothing but putting a show for their own voters. A lot of people were quite annoyed at that, it clogged up legislation, it wastes time and money, money that politicians were getting paid for doing nothing but putting these so called "token and doomed to failure" action in your own words. Congress got its lowest approval rating during this period for a reason. So I think it's fair to say many of us does not agree with the notion you offer, I want my politician to solve problems, not putting up shows.

[Grim Lock]

But to be fair, a lot of people just have too ****** jobs and living conditions that having dealt with the BS they are confronted with every day you can't fairly expect them to do more then vent their frustrations. I'm not a fan of putting people down just because "they aren't actively doing something about it" there's plenty of respectable reasons not to. Hell ideally that's why we've got politicians, they are there to do the legwork based on the opinions of people that actually work for a living.

It's not about putting people down, it's about stating facts. That's simply age old human's mentality. Like how you can get the youth and students to scream and protest, they can sign up for 100+ online petition, they can +like 1000 rant post on the forum, they can skip line to join protest downtown. But get up early and get in line to vote? Sorry can't be arsed.

And I always say: you have time to complain about something, you have time to do something about it. Your life suck? Complaining about it won't make it better, do something meaningful about it will often improve it.

That implies some lack of empathy to me, also from my frame of reference i can't really identify, in our last national election turnout was 82%, so the voting part is imo pretty well covered over here, most people that bitch and moan also go out and participate.

From where i am standing, saying if your life sucks and you've got time to bitch about so instead you could also do something about it, ignores the reality of the capacity of many people.

[fiksal]

But there is one thing he often said:

- If you want to beat Trump, all you have to do is to present a better candidate then him.

That's absolutely correct, and you don't have to be a Trump supporter to say that.

The last part of the sentence is missing one key element - "better candidate than Trump, for Trump supporters"
There were (arguably) several better candidates than Trump that ran in primaries, and one during the actual election.

So that didnt work.


One can try to win differently. What's the current voter turn out, 40%? Get more people to vote, to drown out the pro-Trump voices.

[Vertigo 7]

But to be fair, a lot of people just have too ****** jobs and living conditions that having dealt with the BS they are confronted with every day you can't fairly expect them to do more then vent their frustrations. I'm not a fan of putting people down just because "they aren't actively doing something about it" there's plenty of respectable reasons not to. Hell ideally that's why we've got politicians, they are there to do the legwork based on the opinions of people that actually work for a living.

It's not about putting people down, it's about stating facts. That's simply age old human's mentality. Like how you can get the youth and students to scream and protest, they can sign up for 100+ online petition, they can +like 1000 rant post on the forum, they can skip line to join protest downtown. But get up early and get in line to vote? Sorry can't be arsed.

And I always say: you have time to complain about something, you have time to do something about it. Your life suck? Complaining about it won't make it better, do something meaningful about it will often improve it.

That implies some lack of empathy to me, also from my frame of reference i can't really identify, in our last national election turnout was 82%, so the voting part is imo pretty well covered over here, most people that bitch and moan also go out and participate.

From where i am standing, saying if your life sucks and you've got time to bitch about so instead you could also do something about it, ignores the reality of the capacity of many people.

people can bitch and moan while simultaneously work on whatever it is they're bitching about. Multitasking ftw

[Grim Lock]

That also ofcourse, actually migthysword proves that point himself too, as i'm pretty sure he doesn't put his life on hold whenever he posts one of those super long essays

[Chips]

So it's what, about 14 months until the election?

I'm assuming it's Trump vs whomever the Democrats chose? So, how is all this going? As in, are there any decent contenders, or is it now 10 months of ripping each other apart to try and oppose Trump?

I am going to assume that, as always, regardless of WHO is the candidate, Democrats will ultimately vote for the Democrat, Republicans will vote Trump. Any initial starters on the ones who are unaligned? Any initial polls that indicate Trump is in trouble, or the opposite?

[Observe]

And I always say: you have time to complain about something, you have time to do something about it. Your life suck? Complaining about it won't make it better, do something meaningful about it will often improve it.

Money = Power
People with money = Power
People without money = Zilch

It is easy to tell a Zilch to suck it up, lift themselves up by the bootstraps and become someone they are not. The thing is, all these Zilches who are working their fingers to the bone on a daily basis, should have the same power as the high paid executive in some ivory tower.

I am not saying that the Zilch should have the same amount of money as the billionaire. What I am saying, is that money should not be the determiner in a person having the freedom to "do something meaningful" as you put it. We all should have sufficient finances to support ourselves in society and be able to contribute our creativity in ways that are meaningful to us and to our community.

All we need to do, is re-invent our economic system. After all, our existing system is only a human invention to start with. We don't need money as a carrot to force people to work. People want to work and always have. People are creative, energetic beings. Sure, there are some, who for one reason or another suffer from laziness, but I'll bet there would be far fewer of such people, if the sense of hopelessness and powerlessness wasn't so prevalent.

Sometimes people complain without action because they don't know what to do, or they don't have it in them, when the odds are stacked against them.

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society

There is no question that we do have a profoundly sick society. I think on that, most will agree.