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Morkonan
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Re: Trump

Post by Morkonan » Sat, 20. Oct 18, 16:44

Usenko wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 14:46
The question I would ask is simply whether a "Left" as I would understand it actually exists in the USA.

From my viewpoint - as an Australian conservative - it would appear that the US political scene consists of "Right Wing" and "REALLY Right Wing" . . .
It depends on how one defines "Left." Bernie Sanders is probably the furthest "Left" politician, according to how most people in the US define "Left," that could be said to be reasonably in the running as a possible candidate. We do have other parties that are much further "Left," going all the way to Communist/Socialist political parties and the like. But, they don't get much of a following.

Sanders has actually fractured the Democratic party a bit, simply because he is further Left than some Democrats would like. It also seems that younger voters tend to support such candidates, in my opinion. That's especially true when the candidate "speaks to them" using focused social media campaigns. Sanders didn't do as much of that as Ron Paul's campaign did when he ran. Ron is a Libertarian, not really Leftist, but the point is that those who appear to be successful on the Left in the US appeal to younger voters. And, young people don't typically show up to the polls as often as older people.

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Re: Trump

Post by Santi » Sat, 20. Oct 18, 19:42

The same can be said for Trump, but contrary to what you said, he got support from the elderly and the young nonetheless. And they turned up for voting to make it happen.

And I disagree, Sanders was stitched up by his own party the same way as the Republicans try to stitch up Trump with the Russian implication.
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 02:40

Usenko wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 14:46
The question I would ask is simply whether a "Left" as I would understand it actually exists in the USA.
From my viewpoint - as an Australian conservative - it would appear that the US political scene consists of "Right Wing" and "REALLY Right Wing" . . .
It's a matter of perspective. You can take the most conservative American politician and he still look like a leftist to a Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese or Japanese. Like wise, take the most liberal politician in those countries and present him/her to the West, and they still look like a far right. Ultimately the opinion and how outsiders define or where to draw the line is pretty irrelevant IMO. The only one who can define that are the people who live in their respective countries. It comes down where you define as your center, and left and right will be relative to that, and there is not a universal landmark for where that center is. :wink:

Instead of left and right, conservative and progressive are probably better term to describe the sides. Look at the values that a countries started with, or hold on to for a centuries or two. Conservative are the one who try to maintain it and progressive are the one want to change it.

About Sander, out of all the candidates in the last election he's the one I dislike the most. If I'm down and about, and someone come over offer me a meal and a few dollars, I will be grateful, and I know my fellow Americans are capable of that. I can hope that someone else will come around and actually give me a shelter, give me some clothes and direct me at a job ... that can happen too. But Sander, he's like someone who will come to me and say he will build me a mansion and bank 1mil in my name ... yeah right, I would more likely tell him to piss off than accepting his help. Because I think he's a fool to promise the impossible, and if I believe it just for a moment, that will make it 2 fools. :roll:
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Re: Trump

Post by Hank001 » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 03:01

Look like Trump is busy this weekend:

Trump says US is ending decades-old nuclear arms treaty with Russia

Hey Trolls! Go tell your boss his henchman Trump followed orders once again! Making the world safe for a Russian takeover. Putin HATED the IRBM treaty.
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 03:39

Just think I'll give you a bit of context here my dear: this is not new. Back in 2014 the Russian already violated it by developed and tested the 9M729 - SSC-8. Obama protested, Russian denied, and in the end everyone (Obama + NATO) decided to just forget about it, let mother Russia have her new toy instead of escalate it into an arm race. A report in 2017 indicated that Russia had two battalion with 8 launchers of this missile. So for all intend and purpose, that treaty was already scrapped, at least from the Russian side. Trump basically just shot the elephant in the room, the same one Obama should have shot 3 years ago.

And isn't this a trend with his presidency? Everyone's been complain about immigrant for years, yet no one doing anything. Everyone's been complain about China trade practice, yet no one doing anything ...etc... This is hardly a Trump's invented issue. We had plenty of times to fix most of these things, yet we didn't. Now come a guy who doesn't seem to be shy about it ... problem is he seems to fix thing with a sledgehammer. And well, if anyone don't like his fix, let's see if the can come up with a better one.
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Re: Trump

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 05:38

Santi wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 19:42
The same can be said for Trump, but contrary to what you said, he got support from the elderly and the young nonetheless. And they turned up for voting to make it happen.
As a group, young people in the US do not show up to vote as often as other demographics. That's just the way it is. They talk a good game, get excited, go to rallies, go to parties, then when The Big Day comes they're too hung over to bother going to vote... :)
And I disagree, Sanders was stitched up by his own party the same way as the Republicans try to stitch up Trump with the Russian implication.
Sanders refused to "mainstream" his message or tone down his rhetoric, so it ended up splitting a good bit of the party and the Dems got ticked off at him. That doesn't mean he wasn't as far Left as one can get and still be a Democrat. 1

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Re: Trump

Post by BugMeister » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 11:47

Mightysword wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 03:39
Just think I'll give you a bit of context here my dear: this is not new. Back in 2014 the Russian already violated it by developed and tested the 9M729 - SSC-8. Obama protested, Russian denied, and in the end everyone (Obama + NATO) decided to just forget about it, let mother Russia have her new toy instead of escalate it into an arm race. A report in 2017 indicated that Russia had two battalion with 8 launchers of this missile. So for all intend and purpose, that treaty was already scrapped, at least from the Russian side. Trump basically just shot the elephant in the room, the same one Obama should have shot 3 years ago.

And isn't this a trend with his presidency? Everyone's been complain about immigrant for years, yet no one doing anything. Everyone's been complain about China trade practice, yet no one doing anything ...etc... This is hardly a Trump's invented issue. We had plenty of times to fix most of these things, yet we didn't. Now come a guy who doesn't seem to be shy about it ... problem is he seems to fix thing with a sledgehammer. And well, if anyone don't like his fix, let's see if the can come up with a better one.
your second paragraph is completely untrue.. and is based only on your opinion..
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Re: Trump

Post by Hank001 » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 16:00

Well the local news dropped the bomb on my humble hamlet. With the potential stormfront moving in and due here by Saturday I and my copious family are planning to be leaving town without the need for a manditory evacuation. I'll be boarding up the windows and sandbagging the homestead in preparation for the high winds and dangerous conditions that are bond to prevail at the end of this week. Our main concern is the amount of loose trash and garbage the that is apt to be hurtling at us and we all figure it would be prudent to simply be as far away from the oncoming storm as possible.

Email indicates President Trump is planning potential visit to Carbondale

Most likely we'll rush back town the day after the holocaust moves through. Muck out what slime and debris the blew in and hope that whatever stench is left over quickly blows past and we can quickly clean up the devistation and move on with our lives.
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 17:19

BugMeister wrote:
Sun, 21. Oct 18, 11:47
your second paragraph is completely untrue.. and is based only on your opinion..
Then tell me why it is untrue, what is your take on it. Like I said if anyone have a brighter idea, I would love to hear it. See, because I can easily say something like "your one sentence is completely BS" and leave it at that, will that contribute anything meaningful to the discussion? I always find it cringy whenever someone feels the need to point it out "it's just your opinion". Of course it is, what I said is as much an opinion as what you said, but did you see I feel the need to point it out for you? No. The question is does your opinion have some merit, does it promote or provide some new avenue for discuss above the "hey you're wrong" :roll:
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Re: Trump

Post by Hank001 » Sun, 21. Oct 18, 18:32

@ BugMeister:
If you want to fix the problem here then come on over. I have a 16 pound sledgehammer I'll lend you. And if you happen to break it, I won't mind one bit. :mrgreen:

As for turning this forum into a big op-ed, well I'll go with the flow. Sure. So our beneficent US government indicted A Russian troll. They patted themselves for catching ONE drop of water from a very big bucket and parade the fact to the news so they can look like their doing something. Well I have news for you. (or maybe not news to you) The government (FBI, DHS, NSA etc) don't want to touch the problem. Hell I wouldn't doubt that they called Moscow first to ask PERMISSION to indict someone who was a little to inept! Can't have that can they?

Anyway, back to the news. Now here's a peek inside true American weirdness. Now I'm all for those who care to speak out against the far right wanting to turn the country into a carbon copy of Russia and crushing their opponents under the heels of their jackboots, but I'm not sure of the methods this group is using against Trump, Kavenaugh and their ilk. Witchcraft. :gruebel: Nope.

Putting the hex on Trump and Kavenaugh
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Re: Trump

Post by Grim Lock » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 11:03

Masterbagger wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 06:07
Observe wrote:
Fri, 19. Oct 18, 20:10
Here is how we defeat Trump in the next election: During the primary, If all democrats voted for whoever is the most liberal Republican, Trump would lose the primary and not be elected to represent the republican party. Then, for the general election, those democrats can switch sides and vote for the democrat candidate. Problem solved. Trump out of the way.

Worst that could happen, is we get a moderate republican. Nothing wrong with that. We need to reduce the impact of both far-left and far-right, while boosting the influence of moderates.
There is no moderate anymore. You can stand against the insanity of the left, you can partake in it, or you can wait for those opposed to save you from it or stop you from doing it. Go make your choice.
Still not over this one :) And you claim to be pro-freedom at the same time?
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Re: Trump

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 15:48

Usenko wrote:
Sat, 20. Oct 18, 14:46
The question I would ask is simply whether a "Left" as I would understand it actually exists in the USA.

From my viewpoint - as an Australian conservative - it would appear that the US political scene consists of "Right Wing" and "REALLY Right Wing" . . .
I dunno.
I always used to think this as well, with the US "left" always seemingly positioned pretty far to the right of the UKs Conservative party.
"Socialist" is term that American politicians have long liked to fling around to smear their opponents but its clear they have no idea what it means, even Bernie Sanders held up by the right as the arch-socialist of the Dems. is nothing of the kind, he's just a mildly different flavour of neo-liberalism.

But now, seemingly as a response to Trump we do have some (younger) politicans emerging who do actually look worthy of the label "socialist" albeit with a rather American twist . . . such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Sarah Smith. The latter not yet elected, but here's hoping.
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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 15:58

Grim Lock wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 11:03
Observe wrote:
Fri, 19. Oct 18, 20:10
Here is how we defeat Trump in the next election: During the primary, If all democrats voted for whoever is the most liberal Republican, Trump would lose the primary and not be elected to represent the republican party. Then, for the general election, those democrats can switch sides and vote for the democrat candidate. Problem solved. Trump out of the way. Worst that could happen, is we get a moderate republican. Nothing wrong with that. We need to reduce the impact of both far-left and far-right, while boosting the influence of moderates.
Still not over this one :) And you claim to be pro-freedom at the same time?
You do realize I was just joking don't you? I figured my suggestion was so outrageous, that it would have been clear I wasn't serious. :)

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Re: Trump

Post by Grim Lock » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 16:42

Observe wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 15:58
Grim Lock wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 11:03
Observe wrote:
Fri, 19. Oct 18, 20:10
Here is how we defeat Trump in the next election: During the primary, If all democrats voted for whoever is the most liberal Republican, Trump would lose the primary and not be elected to represent the republican party. Then, for the general election, those democrats can switch sides and vote for the democrat candidate. Problem solved. Trump out of the way. Worst that could happen, is we get a moderate republican. Nothing wrong with that. We need to reduce the impact of both far-left and far-right, while boosting the influence of moderates.
Still not over this one :) And you claim to be pro-freedom at the same time?
You do realize I was just joking don't you? I figured my suggestion was so outrageous, that it would have been clear I wasn't serious. :)
Oh hell, i quoted a wrong post!!!!, i meant to quote masterbagger another time when he said: "There is no moderate anymore. You can stand against the insanity of the left, you can partake in it, or you can wait for those opposed to save you from it or stop you from doing it. Go make your choice."

I accidentally cut his part and kept yours or something like that!! Whatever the case, im very sorry, as it wasn't directed at you!
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Re: Trump

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 17:07

I think I have it all figured out...

See, "voters" are like young children. They "want what they want" and that's really all they know.

"But, I want to eat the pancake batter!"

"You won't like it. It tastes like crap if it's not cooked."

"BUT I WANTS IT!"

"Well, OK. Go ahead then..."

"WTF THIS TASTES LIKE CRAP!"

"Told you so. And, we're not going to do that again, are we?"

"NO! Cook it first!"

"That's right."

But, politicians aren't like "good parents." They're the crappy parents that only want the kids to shut up and stop bothering them. They'll do anything to shut them up...

"But, I want to eat pancake batter!"

"That's your Right! Pancake batter is awesome. It's the best thing ever! Don't let anyone tell you that you can't have it! And, I'm the one who is going to give it to you!"

"WTF THIS TASTES LIKE CRAP!"

"Well.. uh... Hey, I know what! Playing in the mud is good for you! And, it's fun! Everyone should play in the mud! Don't let anyone take away your right to play in the mud! Anyone who says you'll catch diphtheria if you play in the mud is a liar and just wants to take away your Rights!"

"Uh... I LIKE playing in the mud! I WANT TO PLAY IN THE MUD, TOO!"

"I am the only one that can give you the mud you want! Here you go, kids!"

"WTF THIS SUCKS AND EVERYTHING IS DIRTY NOW AND I CAUGHT DIPHTHERIA!"

"Uh... You have the right to eat all the candy you want! ALL DAY! EVERY DAY! CANDY!"

"I LIKE candy..."

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Re: Trump

Post by brucewarren » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 17:15

I always thought American politics was more like

Politician: Too many people are dying for no reason. We need to build a hospital and hire some doctors.
Public: A hospital? Who's gonna pay for it? How dare you suggest we increase public spending. Cut taxes and shut everything down. 'Murica.

Politician: Some other country has increased it's military budget by three dollars a year.
Public. That's outrageous. We can't have that. Build 50 new fleet carriers immediately. We gotta maintain our supremacy at all costs.

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Re: Trump

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 22. Oct 18, 17:27

brucewarren wrote:
Mon, 22. Oct 18, 17:15
I always thought American politics was more like
Pretty much, except there are some slight corrections... ;)
Politician: Too many people are dying for no reason. We need to build a hospital and hire some doctors.
Public: A hospital? Who's gonna pay for it? How dare you suggest we increase public spending. Cut taxes and shut everything down. 'Murica.
"Doctors? Wait a sec... You ever notice that everyone who isn't a doctor but is near a doctor... gets sick? WTF? Not only do you want to take my money, you want to make us all sick, too! DOCTORS CAUSE PEOPLE TO GET SICK!

And, "hospitals?" Do you know what happens to people in hospitals? THEY DIE! Anyone who wants to build more hospitals wants to kill us!"
Politician: Some other country has a bigger aircraft than us.
Public. We can't have that. Build 50 carriers immediately. Take my money.
"We really should reduce military spending. We already-"

"What? "Reduce" military spending? WTF are you unpatriotic?"

"No, I'm a proud patriot! But, these new aircraft carriers aren't really needed and, besides, they don't really work right and there's a huge budget overrun on-"

"How big is it?"

"What?"

"You deaf, too? HOW BIG IS IT?"

"Well, the new Gerald R. Ford class is the largest carrier class ever and displaces 100,000 tonnes-"

"There ya go! Patriotism! That's 100,000 tonnes of pure Freedom, right there, buddy."

PS - I think if we started something like a new "Space Shuttle" program with some big flying thing that went into space, people's need for "Big Freedom Things" might be reduced a little bit...

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Re: Trump

Post by Hank001 » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 00:14

Well the Secret Service decended on the town and after taking it's temperature (rectally) Trump's planned visit was moved 15 miles down the road to the county seat of Murphysboro. Smart move. So we figured that since "Murphy" is famous for their Apple Festival, Annual "Pig Out" Barbeque Contest (No Joke) and the fact that there might be two minority families in living on the outskirts of town I doubt if there are three. Trump will love it and spare my town from leaving for that weekend. We're releaved.
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Re: Trump

Post by felter » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 01:41

So the truth has come out on why Trump is for leaving the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty, it has nothing to do with Russia or anyone else. It's all about his own obsession to play around with and add to Americas nuclear arsenal. He has wanted to do that since before becoming president and this is how he is going to do it.
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Re: Trump

Post by theeclownbroze » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 01:44

What's going to happen when this reaches the U.S. Border?

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