Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 14:49

Mightysword wrote:
Tue, 9. Apr 19, 23:52
I should clarify what I meant by professionals here. I didn't meant it to be taken as "expert on the subject matter". The UK is a developed country, I had heard it has a good education system (at least better than the US), and you have free access to free media platforms. To put it bluntly: it's not a country full of illiterates with a tightly controlled state run only media. I would like to think the UK people for the most part have the capacity and the mean to make a fully informed decision ... if they decide to do so. After all, who among us here is an "expert" on the subject matter? Anyone here a career economist or lawyer or have at least have formal education on the subject? So what is the differences between those of you who claimed to see through the lie, and those who you claim fell for such lie? I don't think it's patently false either, or are you saying in that 52% (almost 17.5 million votes) there are not at least some segments that are more informed on the issues than all of us here? That would be thinking ... unnecessarily high about ourselves don't you think? :doh:
Maybe this is a language thing, but a "professional" generally refers to someone who is doing a white-collar job. You can also describe someone as "professional" if they do their chosen work particularly well. Neither term can really be used to refer to the majority of people. The same goes for your point about people being informed. I acknowledged in an earlier reply to RegisterMe that it would be hyperbole to say that nobody really understood the situation, but I don't think it's exaggerating to suggest that the majority of the population didn't really have a clear understanding of the issues, and that many of those who thought they did were either mistaken or actively deceived.
Mightysword wrote:
Tue, 9. Apr 19, 23:52
Note that the focus here is I'm rejecting this specific notion:
Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 8. Apr 19, 18:08
...In that respect, one could argue the citizens of the UK are blameless here for making their choice...
That excuse may pass for the people who live in a country like North Korea, but not a place like the UK.
I'm not going to disagree with your point, because it is true that responsible adults in a free country have a duty to educate themselves on topics they are asked to vote for. However, the reality is that many people vote on the basis of their preconceived ideas, or on the basis of the campaigns that lead up to the vote. Given the fact that many of those preconceived ideas were formed from 40+ years of distortions and lies in the press, and that the campaigns were equally dishonest, it is hard not to lay the blame elsewhere. Where exactly were people supposed to get any real facts from, even if they wanted to? Do you really think that the average shop worker or bricklayer could be expected to go and research the economic impact of leaving the EU themselves? It's not a question of being "tricked", it's a question of there being no practical way to obtain genuine information, no way for them to determine the truth of the information that they were being presented, and no attempt made emphasise the importance of the decision being made on the basis of facts rather than a vague feeling that EU membership was a "good" or "bad" thing.

To put it in another context, if a school gets bad results, the pupils have to accept some responsibility, but the teachers have to shoulder the majority of the blame.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:12

CBJ wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 14:49
Do you really think that the average shop worker or bricklayer could be expected to go and research the economic impact of leaving the EU themselves? It's not a question of being "tricked", it's a question of there being no practical way to obtain genuine information,
They dont need to be in deep with economics, but I expect any adult to have SOME degree of ability to understand what they know and what not, then when faced with having to make any decision to get informed at least on the basics. I call BS on the "people cant be expected to educate themselves, bl bla..." this is just not true any more, there are plenty of ways to get information these days, if you want to. If you dont want, its ok, but that inaction does NOT excuse people from their responsibility, its a choice and as such will have consequences.

I recon if we look up the stats for how much time people spend watching nonsensical programs it will show that there is plenty of time that people COULD invest in scavenging for multiple sources of information to be somewhat informed. Here the old people at least have the excuse that they were actively brainwashed and coerced to have a specific mindset during the dictatorship, but that is also only really true for very old people. Yes there are forces that try to sell people stuff, some of it is bad, doesnt mean I'll buy everything, so yeah, people need to understand that they are in great part the culprits for how things are, pretty much anywhere without military juntas.

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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:22

Ketraar I don't disagree with that, but I do wonder whether people would have swallowed the Leave campaign's blandishments had it not been for two or three decades' worth of lies and anti-EU propaganda published in large swathes of the popular press (eg Daily Mail, Daily Express etc) in the UK.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:46

A perfect example of the kind of BS we're dealing with:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1115926046858047488

2015: "The EU is bad but the single market is good, I'd suggest we leave the former not the latter."
2016: The UK votes to leave the EU, completely in accordance with the position above.
2019: "Well because of the referendum result my position has changed, it is clear we must leave the single market"

AAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

This is pretty much emblematic of the entire Brexiteer position since 2016, they've been given an inch and are proceeding to take a mile. . . . . all whilst claiming it's "The will of the people".
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Last edited by Bishop149 on Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:48

I'm not dismissing anyone else's responsibility, the media included. I just keep trying to remind people that they DO have agency and democracy allows them to choose to do nothing if they wish. What I think most people dont realize is that both have consequences (I know I'm repeating myself here, but it is crucial). Eventually, people are also somewhat responsible for the daily mail too, SOMEONE had to read it for it to have the reach it got. Eventually we realize that people can act against the things they find is wrong, get up and change it. And no, "its not worth the trouble" or "its hard" are not a valid excuses.

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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:50

I don't disagree with that. Equally there are tried and tested methods of manipulating peoples' opinions, and the pronouncements of high profile people / "leaders" do impact the way people think.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 16:02

The one thing to bear in mind is that pretty much everybody in the UK knew what they had already, and whether they were content with it or not. If the press or politicians said 'The status quo is even worse or better than you think' then the people at least had the ability to compare those statements with what they had experienced and knew to be true.

What the people did not know much about was the likely outcomes of future changes (whether resulting from staying in an evolving EU or from leaving it) and that is where the media and politicians had the most influence because many people had little expertise or knowledge to judge those statements against.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 16:06

RegisterMe wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:50
I don't disagree with that. Equally there are tried and tested methods of manipulating peoples' opinions, and the pronouncements of high profile people / "leaders" do impact the way people think.
Agreed, which is why we need to double the efforts to implement better and more accessible systems of "education" and get back to a state where society values facts and science. Its also important to recognize that to achieve any meaningful change the active involvement of most people is not just welcome, but indeed required, be it only to be "in the loop".

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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 16:11

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 15:12
CBJ wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 14:49
Do you really think that the average shop worker or bricklayer could be expected to go and research the economic impact of leaving the EU themselves? It's not a question of being "tricked", it's a question of there being no practical way to obtain genuine information,
They dont need to be in deep with economics, but I expect any adult to have SOME degree of ability to understand what they know and what not, then when faced with having to make any decision to get informed at least on the basics. I call BS on the "people cant be expected to educate themselves, bl bla..." this is just not true any more, there are plenty of ways to get information these days, if you want to. If you dont want, its ok, but that inaction does NOT excuse people from their responsibility, its a choice and as such will have consequences.

I recon if we look up the stats for how much time people spend watching nonsensical programs it will show that there is plenty of time that people COULD invest in scavenging for multiple sources of information to be somewhat informed. Here the old people at least have the excuse that they were actively brainwashed and coerced to have a specific mindset during the dictatorship, but that is also only really true for very old people. Yes there are forces that try to sell people stuff, some of it is bad, doesnt mean I'll buy everything, so yeah, people need to understand that they are in great part the culprits for how things are, pretty much anywhere without military juntas.
None of what you say is wrong in principle, but it doesn't represent how things work in the real world. People should do those things, but they don't. Laziness and indifference are an unfortunate aspect of human nature, but they are real and you can hardly blame individuals for traits that affect all of us to some degree. I should also point out that not all of it is laziness and indifference; life is stressful, and people who have bills to pay, illness to contend with, family strife, and all the other things that modern life brings, are going to find it really hard to summon on the mental energy to engage with politics in their spare time. And for a good many people it's a lot less stressful to go with what they think they already know rather than having to confront the fact that they might be wrong, or that things might be more complicated than they realised.

Again, I bring up the teacher and pupil analogy. It is the responsibility of politicians to engage the public with politics, but what actually happens is that they spend so much time arguing among themselves, jostling for power, and lying through their teeth, that they end up doing the opposite.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:08

I'm aware of the complexities of life and I'm sure some struggle more than others, which is why I was talking in general terms. Being a rather active person I can find all sorts of "excuses" as to why I should not be involved in society and hope that some chap, for some reason is a "good" person and does what they set out to do. See if the "reality" is what it is for the "normal" people, then the same is true for the politicians, its how it is, politicians should be honourable, but SOME aren't.

I find this premise to not be acceptable, if so many people are unhappy with politicians, its also their "job" to change that. Say run for office, partake in the local associations, there are plenty of way for people to contribute to improve things, being somewhat informed is the LEAST people can do.

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Re: Brexit

Post by BugMeister » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:24

- after the unions were destroyed by Thatcher's ugly mob, the average British worker no longer had access to informed politics - particularly regarding industrial matters
- this was an intentional move by the Konservatives, they knew exactly what the outcome would be..
- they came armed with the intention of removing the union movement's teeth - and it worked exactly as planned.. they rendered the average worker powerless at a stroke..

- this is how, coupled with their idiotic crusade for de-regulation and small government, along with their theft of all national assets - they effectively dismantled the state..
- the country is now in the hands of about 150,000 upper and middle-class, card-carrying power-crazy twits.. it is they who decide what we can and can't vote for..

- what care they for our opinions, when the game is forever rigged in their favour..??
- Brexit is being rigged especially for this gangster class..
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:37

BugMeister wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:24
- what care they for our opinions, when the game is forever rigged in their favour..??
Ask Louis XVI I guess... :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:41

The EU seems remote to most people and they don't understand how it works. ( It is complicated!)

Although it is a separate subject, Scottish independence has many similar reasons why the SNP want to leave the Union. ( Remote government etc.) Trouble is some of the politicians who want to leave the EU for those reasons, think that Scotland shouldn't and the opposite is also true.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Observe » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:45

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:08
...if so many people are unhappy with politicians, its also their "job" to change that. Say run for office, partake in the local associations, there are plenty of way for people to contribute to improve things, being somewhat informed is the LEAST people can do.
I understand what you are saying. Certainly, joining or starting an organization is a good way to have one's voice heard. Force in numbers. Still, not everyone is cut out for such things.

If a person thinks some feature is missing from all smartphones, it may not help, to tell that person to become an engineer so they can design their own phone. Some will do it and may become wealthy as a result. Many fortunes have been built that way.

For others, all they can do to complain and hope someone else will take charge. Such people cannot be faulted. They are probably doing the best they can.

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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:52

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:08
I find this premise to not be acceptable, if so many people are unhappy with politicians, its also their "job" to change that. Say run for office, partake in the local associations, there are plenty of way for people to contribute to improve things, being somewhat informed is the LEAST people can do.
You can say it's their job all you like, but unless you make it a legal requirement then people are not going to do it. As for running for office, we run into the H2G2 scenario, where fundamentally the people most suited to of political office are precisely the ones who don't want to do it, and vice versa. And don't forget that when people do run for office because they are unhappy with politicians, what you usually end up with is a populist movement full of policies that satisfy people's immediate, short-term demands at the expense of any kind of longer-term vision.

Regarding being informed, how do you know whether you are informed? If you read a newspaper then you think you are informed. If your friends down the pub relate the same anecdotes that appeared in the newspaper, because they read them in theirs, then that backs up what you thought you knew. So you chose your friends, and your newspaper, because they tend to agree with how you see the world, but how will you even be aware of that a chunk of what you thought you knew was untrue? Clue: the average person won't. And again, where are people supposed to find the real, unbiased information? The reason most people don't read the Economist or Financial Times, mentioned by RegisterMe earlier, is partly because most of it doesn't mean anything to them. Someone who struggles to balance their fairly simple household budget is hardly going to be able to pick up an article about the complexities of supply chain management across borders with different customs regimes and work out what the that means to them when considering whether they want to leave the EU or not. Where are they supposed to get this information, and how do they know whether it's true, or just as unreliable as the newspaper they started with?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 19:04

Observe wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:45
If a person thinks some feature is missing from all smartphones, it may not help, to tell that person to become an engineer so they can design their own phone.
This is a bit of stretch for comparison, still most political systems in place in modern democracies allow for various degrees of involvement, voting is one that does not require you to have a masters degree in political science, as per your analogy.
CBJ wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 17:52
Regarding being informed, how do you know whether you are informed?
This is easy, just reading 2 distinct sources of information will grant, what I personally think is the minimum of information on most subjects, preferably contradicting ones. Doing this over time will also grant people a "skill", called critical thinking and it gets better the more one uses it. So again, this is not hard at all.

Again though, I dont expect nor demand that people do any of it, all I want is for them to be AWARE that they are contributing to shape society REGARDLESS if they are active or not, BOTH have consequences and as such will be (at least partially) their responsibility. You CANNOT opt out of society.

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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 19:50

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Re: Brexit

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 20:48

Mightysword wrote:
Tue, 9. Apr 19, 23:52
...So what is the differences between those of you who claimed to see through the lie, and those who you claim fell for such lie? I don't think it's patently false either, or are you saying in that 52% (almost 17.5 million votes) there are not at least some segments that are more informed on the issues than all of us here? That would be thinking ... unnecessarily high about ourselves don't you think? :doh:
No, that's not what I am saying at all. In previous posts I already denied legitimacy for what little actual discussion of the "facts" were made available to The People during the run-up to the Referendum. That was just complicated even more by the propaganda pushed by those who had interests other than what may be ultimately best for those People. In such a crazy environment compounded by the ease-of-access of biased and dubious information available online and through social media, how can we expect even very intelligent and educated common people to actually ever stumble across accurate and reasonable discussion of "the facts" they would really need to understand before they cast their vote?

Hindsight is 20/20... kind of. At least that's the way the saying goes. So, upon reflection, we eventually have the time to ferret out some details. Turn the tables on that and what would the referendum environment have been like if there had been an equal three years of debate and discussion leading up to it?
Note that the focus here is I'm rejecting this specific notion:
Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 8. Apr 19, 18:08
...In that respect, one could argue the citizens of the UK are blameless here for making their choice...
That excuse may pass for the people who live in a country like North Korea, but not a place like the UK.
Blameless in that the referendum was misleading and, IMO, illegitimate. The People did not "vote to have a referendum about a Brexit Referendum." They were fed a referendum by their government and it was conducted very poorly. The government seemed to accept that there was a need for it and, apparently, felt that The People already knew enough about the subject to vote on it with the facts they had in hand, even if many of those "facts" were dubious at best. The evidence that the government did not have any sort of strong hand on the situation is very clear in that they have been unable to figure out how to empliment any of it.. They didn't even bother trying to think up a workable "plan" to present as part of this referendum. It was simply "Do we jump off a cliff or not" and that's just plain irresponsible, since someone in favor of jumping off the cliff is going to falsely claim there's a lion chasing them and jumping is the only sane solution.
.. But I don't think that absolved them the responsibility of their vote, they maybe the victim, but they are also their own victim. .. But telling them "you made a bad vote because you were tricked" is a different, and more likely a greater insult. :)
There's no insult here. One can't blame the victim for being a victim if they were made so by someone else, right? I'm placing any "blame" here in the hands of the government and their chasing of politically polarizing rhetoric to shore up their unstable political positions. And, I'm not calling the people of the UK ignorant, either, since it's pretty evident all the complications of actually enabling the UK to withdraw from the EU did not come fully into light until after the referendum. In that situation, it would be very difficult to find ANYONE in full possession of the facts before the referendum took place.

Look at what is in front of our faces, right now, for the evidence and you'll see it. Parliament and the collection of the finest minds and most politically astute people in the entire nation are habitually throwing up their hands and saying "Lolz, I dunno" for three years. The only people that made any rational arguments for or against Brexit may have been a very few low-key commentators who's opinions were asked in passing and in which the questions posed to them contained very little detail or complication.

An equitable situation in the US would be if "teh gubbermint" proposed a referendum to The People that consisted of the question "Should the government have a healthcare policy for all citizens in which it pays for primary care?" No discussion of how or who and what would pay for or manage such a beast, just the question. And, the result of that referendum would then be that Teh Gubbermint would then fully act on it in whatever direction was chosen by the people... That would be criminal. It would result in the most extreme situation for ALL healthcare in the US imaginable. And, that's what's going on in the UK right now.

"No plan. Just do. Should be fun..." - Teh Gubbermint :/

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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Wed, 10. Apr 19, 22:39

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 19:04
This is easy, just reading 2 distinct sources of information will grant, what I personally think is the minimum of information on most subjects, preferably contradicting ones. Doing this over time will also grant people a "skill", called critical thinking and it gets better the more one uses it. So again, this is not hard at all.
Yes, it IS hard. People could have read half a dozen different sources and still got false information in this case, because there was little else circulating. And asking people to read contradicting sources, in this case probably reading a newspaper whose politics they disagree with, is, I'm afraid, a fantasy. People don't do that. Again, you can say that they should do it until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that most people don't want to be confronted with uncomfortable information that doesn't fit their world view, and certainly won't go out of their way to seek such situations.
Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 19:04
Again though, I dont expect nor demand that people do any of it, all I want is for them to be AWARE that they are contributing to shape society REGARDLESS if they are active or not, BOTH have consequences and as such will be (at least partially) their responsibility. You CANNOT opt out of society.
Tell that to someone who is unemployed and sees no benefit to them in anything that politicians say or do, and whose opinion on EU membership is therefore much the same. The fact that other people's jobs might depend on the economic support of our international neighbours is of no consequence to them, so they might just as well vote on the basis of what they think of the neighbours in their own street who happen to be from some other EU country and who do have a job. They are not "opting out" but their perspective doesn't include the bigger picture, and nor can it realistically be expected to.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 11. Apr 19, 00:34

CBJ wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 22:39
Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 10. Apr 19, 19:04
This is easy, just reading 2 distinct sources of information will grant, what I personally think is the minimum of information on most subjects, preferably contradicting ones. Doing this over time will also grant people a "skill", called critical thinking and it gets better the more one uses it. So again, this is not hard at all.
Yes, it IS hard.
No it is not. I did it all the time, I don't see what's difficult about it, and I don't see anything special about myself. It's not like I'm bending myself backward, twisting my arm or giving up my first born to do it, I'm sure there are others who do it too. Even if you can not obtain all the facts, at the very least it will provide a "balance" view. Hard cold fact is not the only way to make an "informed" decision. Students are taught how to check their answer even in the absent knowledge of what is the correct answer. You may not know what it is, but you can also deduce what it can not be. I said it before: I'm naturally suspicious of what I don't agree with, and I am extra suspicious of what I do agree with. And that's not a new thing: "keep your friend close and your enemy closer", "if something sounds too good to be true then it's probably not true", these have been wisdom through the age, people just don't want to apply it.

Especially when most of the lie are spread through the appeal of emotion and fear mongering, just keeping yourself a level head is often enough to avoid being misinformed. On the contrary, the more people indulge themselves in the echo chamber, the less effort it takes to trick them. :sceptic:

And asking people to read contradicting sources, in this case probably reading a newspaper whose politics they disagree with, is, I'm afraid, a fantasy. People don't do that. Again, you can say that they should do it until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that most people don't want to be confronted with uncomfortable information that doesn't fit their world view, and certainly won't go out of their way to seek such situations.
This view has been brought up repeatedly in the last two pages by you and others, and in summary the tl;dr is: people just don't want to do it. I can accept it if I am given a demonstration of "people want to do it, but can not". But here, we talk about people having the tool and the mean to do something that will benefit, yet don't want to do it, than there can be no excuse. Again saying it's a common issue doesn't make it a non-issue, just like we don't accept wrong doing is not wrong just because "lots of people do it too!".

But here is the my main counterargument for you and others: so if your reason on this is "it's too hard, you can't expect people to do that", this means the only way for them to get the truth is being spoon-fed it by others. And who gonna be these "others"? The Politician and Media? Tell me, if you think expecting people to read a source of contradicting opinion is a fantasy ... then how realistic it is to expect politician and media to tell no lie? :P

And before you say something like "but speaking the truth is the duty expected of them!", I can also reciprocate that in the same manner: "taking things seriously and ensure they are informed are also the duty expected of the voters". You see how this game gonna go? In the end people prefer to talk about expectation of others instead of what expected of them, but ultimately it's easier to control your own action than the action of others. Especially - and I want to put an emphasis on this part - when you have the necessary mean to do so, all you need is a will. There are other places in the world the mean doesn't exist even if people have the will. ;)
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