Brexit

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felter
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Re: Brexit

Post by felter » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 17:06

pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 13. Feb 20, 08:45
Have to say, I'm a little puzzled about the tunnel thing myself. It's a train tunnel--nobody is going to actually walk through all 20+ miles of the thing to reach the UK without getting spotted, and hiding directly aboard the trains is impractical,
How do you know no one has not managed to walk through the tunnel without being spotted. Admittedly there have been more than a few that have been spotted, meaning people have tried it. There is actually no way of knowing if anyone has managed to get through without being spotted, as you have to spot them to know they are there and made the attempt. If one manages to get through without being spotted, then no one will even know that they were ever there as they would never have been spotted. We can only surmise that no one has made it through without being spotted due to the fact that others have been spotted but that doesn't mean that they haven't been able to do it without being spotted. :wink: :wink:
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Re: Brexit

Post by red assassin » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 18:40

I get 90 by the looks of it. Yay for working in tech?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 20:03

felter wrote:
Wed, 19. Feb 20, 17:06
pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 13. Feb 20, 08:45
Have to say, I'm a little puzzled about the tunnel thing myself. It's a train tunnel--nobody is going to actually walk through all 20+ miles of the thing to reach the UK without getting spotted, and hiding directly aboard the trains is impractical,
How do you know no one has not managed to walk through the tunnel without being spotted. Admittedly there have been more than a few that have been spotted, meaning people have tried it. There is actually no way of knowing if anyone has managed to get through without being spotted, as you have to spot them to know they are there and made the attempt. If one manages to get through without being spotted, then no one will even know that they were ever there as they would never have been spotted. We can only surmise that no one has made it through without being spotted due to the fact that others have been spotted but that doesn't mean that they haven't been able to do it without being spotted. :wink: :wink:
I'm not familiar with this tunnel off hand but, I would have to imagine, in the current day in age of terrorist threats that there are cameras monitoring it 24/7, ya?
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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 20:52

Well, there have actually been a few instances of people getting through, but it's not a common occurrence and I don't think it's happened for some time.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 20:58

I really don't see what Channel Tunnel security has to do with the Brexit debate. Pretty much the same level of British national security precautions and measures against threat and unsanctioned or illegal entry would have to continue whether the UK is in or out of the EU. Think of airport level security for unscheduled access/departure for the Tunnel and you probably won't be too far off.
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Brexit

Post by felter » Sat, 26. Dec 20, 22:52

I got to say this, while it is good that they have managed to get a trade deal with the EU, what the UK Government has been saying is total lies and BS.

Take a few weeks back, Johnson was adament that the the UK would do perfectly fine without a deal, that everything would be OKAY, to now saying, we have a deal and that means safety and security for the UK. So what one was it, I mean with what they are saying now, does that mean we were not safe and secure without the deal.

Then you also have now saying that both sides got exactly what they wanted, if that's the case, what have they been arguing about for the past year, what has all of Johnson's statements about there is a massive divided between the two parties over the deal that it looks like no deal will come pass. If they got exactly what they wanted, then what have they been doing and why was he trying to terrorise the UK population over the no deal. Either he has been telling lots lies to all of us or he is telling lots lies to all of us, you cannot have it both ways and be telling the truth.
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Re: Random News not worthy of own thread

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 27. Dec 20, 01:20

It's called being a 'popularist' politician.

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but you can’t lie to all of the people all of the time”

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Re: Brexit

Post by Stars_InTheirEyes » Sun, 27. Dec 20, 18:40

Its like we had a successful store in a shopping mall then someone said "well we pay so much for rent! we should move to the bottom of town where the rent is cheaper", then we realised how bad for business being out of shopping mall will be and haggled over a deal to put a small kiosk back in the mall and laud it as a great victory.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Chips » Sun, 27. Dec 20, 19:30

felter wrote:
Sat, 26. Dec 20, 22:52
I got to say this, while it is good that they have managed to get a trade deal with the EU, what the UK Government has been saying is total lies and BS.

Take a few weeks back, Johnson was adament that the the UK would do perfectly fine without a deal, that everything would be OKAY, to now saying, we have a deal and that means safety and security for the UK. So what one was it, I mean with what they are saying now, does that mean we were not safe and secure without the deal.

Then you also have now saying that both sides got exactly what they wanted, if that's the case, what have they been arguing about for the past year, what has all of Johnson's statements about there is a massive divided between the two parties over the deal that it looks like no deal will come pass. If they got exactly what they wanted, then what have they been doing and why was he trying to terrorise the UK population over the no deal. Either he has been telling lots lies to all of us or he is telling lots lies to all of us, you cannot have it both ways and be telling the truth.
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Re: Brexit

Post by felter » Sun, 27. Dec 20, 21:40

It's not the political side of it that bothers me, especially seeing as Johnson tells so many lies that if you ever see his lips move, you have to accept he is telling a lie. No, my problem is with the fact that no one is holding him to account for his lies, the press are all yeah great and just what we need, while even his political rivals aren't holding them accountable and that's what pisses me off.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Chips » Mon, 28. Dec 20, 14:33

felter wrote:
Sun, 27. Dec 20, 21:40
It's not the political side of it that bothers me, especially seeing as Johnson tells so many lies that if you ever see his lips move, you have to accept he is telling a lie. No, my problem is with the fact that no one is holding him to account for his lies, the press are all yeah great and just what we need, while even his political rivals aren't holding them accountable and that's what pisses me off.
I don't think most are saying it's brilliant yippee, I think most are saying "thank Christ it's not a no deal". As it is, they've got 1200+ pages to wade through and interpret to find out what's actually been achieved.

Now if you want to say his feet should be held to the fire over prior rhetoric about deals, then fine. But please keep in mind that (from what we know?) it'd have been no deal if he were forced to adhere as there's 2 sides to every negotiation and obviously 1 had zero requirement to give everything away as they knew it'd hurt us more. Whether you think the deal obtained is a "great deal for Britain" is up to you to decide; I'm of the opinion we were backed into a position with 2 outcomes and we've got the more preferable one - but I literally have no idea as I don't know everything about everything (sadly). Parliament will get to vote on it and at that point there are some going to vote in order to hold feet to fire. It's hugely unlikely to be voted down as if it does, it's no deal afaik? But we'll see.

I'm mostly disappointed about missing out on free movement and right to live. Why? Because it's the one thing that affected me directly - the rest is indirect. The amount of Europeans I met at uni and through travelling was awesome. If that's vanishing it's a huge shame. As I advance in life perhaps I'll come to realise more that's been lost and stop worrying about something I never really exercised - but for now I can stop looking at foreign properties and thinking "wow, look what you can get for your money!". After all, I've known for > 6 months all I had to do was buy a little french property and move in and register myself living there in order to be given freedom to remain post 31st Dec. I haven't done so though. Not brave enough to take the big steps. Kinda regretting it but... my current job is rather specialised and paying rather well. So easy to regret a decision you could easily have taken but were never brave enough to do so :D Just like most who complain about it.

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Re: Brexit

Post by felter » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 19:20

So it's been 3 weeks since we left the EU trade market, finally finishing the leaving of the EU for the UK. Nearly every day there is another moan and groan about what has happened, with many of them saying they did not realise it would be like this, what did they think was going to happen, that nothing would change.

So what's happened. truckers were surprised when they had to give up their cheese and ham sandwich before the could enter the EU, as it is now illegal to take meat, fruit and veg products into the EU from the UK without the proper licence to do so.

The fishermen and fish sellers are up in arms as they have nowhere to sell their fish too, as the fish markets have closed down in the UK and moved to EU, and they can't sell directly to those EU markets easily, Scottish fishermen are selling their catch in Denmark, meaning less fish in the UK, ultimately this will lead to the price of fish rising here in the UK, as they will eventually have to start importing fish.

Performing artists are complaining, as they can no longer just nip over to Europe for a performance, they now have to go get the proper paperwork first, which can take time.

The expats have had to leave Spain and their Spanish houses that they normally spent 6 months of the year in, as they can now only spend 90 days a year in Europe. To stay over the 90 days, you now need to be an EU citizen and have a sizeable yearly income coming into the bank, for a family of 4 that's around £42,000 per year. Also if you are going to be spending more than 90 days you need to have an EU driving licence if you intend to drive, meaning you would have to sit your driving test in an EU country.

Because of the new trade laws, this is leading to Northern Ireland having food shortages with many of the shelves currently empty, granted some shortages are due to the current covid lockdown, but nowhere else are having the same issues meaning it is being largely blamed on Brexit. It is also leading to problem for bigger corporations as they can no longer just import items from the EU and sell them on. While some EU importers from the EU are no longer willing to sell to the UK as it is not worth the hassle of doing so, as they have to setup UK bank accounts and employ UK accountants to take care of new tax laws, and as the EU is their main selling zone, it is not financially worth the effort and it is difficult for UK importers to import the goods. This is leading to quite a few people moaning that they can no longer get their goods as they can only get them from the EU. not just that but due to the new tax laws the prices have gone through the roof, as you have to pay import tax and UK tax on top of what you have already paid leading to item being 40% more expensive, for example a £200 coat bought from a EU retailer will cost you around £80 to import it into the UK now.

The thing is a lot of these moaners voted for Brexit, they wanted to leave the EU, the fishermen were really pro Brexit thinking it would be good for them, but it has backfired as a lot of them lost their jobs, with them saying I didn't think it would be like this. All I can say is welcome to Brexit, they got what they wanted, now they should STFU and live with it.
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Re: Brexit

Post by matthewfarmery » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 19:31

felter wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 19:20
Stuff ..
While I did vote to leave, I do think Borris and others have a lot to answer for. I dont think we really were given a clear picture on what it would be like once we do leave. And those saying that we should stay, probably didn't do a good enough job of explaining stuff either. I think there was a lot of misinformation and I also blame the media. Then again, the problem is, the trade deal, it probably could have been a lot better. But both parties dragged this on, (I do blame the EU for this more then the UK) is that they did drag things, and made it more difficult.

At this rate, I think the vote to leave was a bad one. But I still blame the EU for how they treated the UK, especailly immigration. And I think that was the main reason why quite a few in the north voted to leave. As we wanted more control over who came in. But sadly, this hasn't been very good for the UK. I wish that there was a second vote, and I would have changed my mind. But to me, I feel that Borris and others weren't upfront and I still don't really think he is suitable as a good PM. So I lay a lot of blame on his shoulders.
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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:19

With all due respect, the people who were saying that we should stay did explain exactly what would happen, but they were repeatedly dismissed as alarmists and moaners. We can all agree that Boris has a lot to answer for, because he was at the forefront of those doing the dismissing, but blaming the remainers for that is a bit rich. Some elements of the media are indeed guilty of dismissing valid points and supplying misinformation in its place, but everyone has a choice about which media they consume, and both sides of the argument were available to anyone who was open-minded enough to look beyond their own echo chamber. As for blaming the EU, they looked after their interests during the negotiations, just as they were always going to; how anyone could ever have thought they would have done differently is beyond me. Those who voted and are now regretting the way they voted can't just blame everyone else for their decision.

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Re: Brexit

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:47

"Boris and others weren't upfront"? He flat-out lied--pretty sure he was one of the main instigators behind the now-notorious claim that £350 million a week extra would go to the NHS if we left Europe. If Cameron and his mob had actually been halfway competent they could probably have raised a good argument for staying, but instead they sat on their butts assuming they couldn't possibly lose until maybe a week before the actual vote. And yet, the information was out there for anyone who chose to look for it.

In an ideal world we'd round up Boris, Cameron, Farage, and probably a few other choice individuals, put them all in a closed room with a baseball bat apiece and tell them nobody is coming out until only one is left standing. Sadly, that seems unlikely to happen.

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Re: Brexit

Post by matthewfarmery » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:48

But considering it has taken a long time to come up with some kind of trade deal, and that the general public should have had another choice to vote. I feel that we were pushed into this. The EU sure looked at their own interests. But again, the trade deal, took a long time, even then I don't think there were all that fair.

But yes, I do blame Boris, he was afterall the one in front of the camera promoting that we should leave. I just felt that the other side, were a lot of fear mongering, rather then hard facts. Still, those north of London, wanted their voices heard. Many were sick on how London, and the rest of the EU treated the north. I guess many thought London was putting its own interests first. And those in London (mostly) wanted to remain. But really, there been large north / south divide. And I think those in power more or less forget that we in the north existed. If parliament wasn't so blind, and put the rest of the UK on an equal footing to London, then I suspect that the vote would have been to stay.

But certainly the farther you go north, Immigration was one of the key reasons for leaving, as many were getting sick to the back teeth of having those from middle east coming to live here, and lets not forget the deal that the EU made with Turkey. even that has more or less backfired on Germany, and Angela Merkel and her party lost a lot of power due to the way that Germany handled it's immigration policies.

If the UK had more control over who we allowed in, that would have been better, but no, we had to abide by EU rules. And look where that got both the UK and the EU. So yes, people were fed up with that. And one reason why it was a huge reason for northerners to vote to leave. But in truth, I admit we have made a big mistake. But again, I still feel that the public should have had a one final choice to vote to remain or leave, once we got the trade deal. Even that was more or less lies. Because promises were made, but in time, it was looking like we were not going to have a deal full stop. That is how bad things nearly got. But anyway, Boris should be made to answer for this. and the future troubles that we are now facing. But again, the north and south divide and how poorly those in the north didn't really get enough attention. Thatcher and her meddlings etc also a lot to answer for.. So this goes back years.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 21:17

matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:48
If the UK had more control over who we allowed in, that would have been better, but no, we had to abide by EU rules.
I keep reading this over and over and am baffled that people seem to not understand that the UK did NOT sign the Schengen Agreement, thus having FULL control of their borders wrt to People. :gruebel:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 21:22

"it has taken a long time to come up with some kind of trade deal" Well that's hardly a surprise. In international negotiations where compromises on both sides *have* to be offered for anything meaningful to happen, the arguing, posturing, accusation and counter-accusation, bluff and counter-bluff are always going to continue right up to the wire. It's de rigeur in such cases where both parties have to appear to their national audiences to be 'arguing tirelessly for the ultimate benefit of their own people'.

Did the majority of the British people really want another vote on it towards the end? I suspect not. By the end of the process, most people were so weary of it that almost anything that actually stopped the confusion and not knowing would seem like a godsend.

Lastly, when was British immigration policy from 'say the Middle East' ever an EU issue? All we have really done by leaving is to make it harder for the skilled and unskilled EU workers that the UK actually needs to work and prosper to get their work and entry permits (or even to want to try to get them).

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Re: Brexit

Post by matthewfarmery » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 22:03

Ketraar wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 21:17
matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:48
If the UK had more control over who we allowed in, that would have been better, but no, we had to abide by EU rules.
I keep reading this over and over and am baffled that people seem to not understand that the UK did NOT sign the Schengen Agreement, thus having FULL control of their borders wrt to People. :gruebel:

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But there was still free movement. And part of the issue is the deal that the EU made with Turkey. To allow migrants into the EU. And Germany was one of those that help to settle a good number of migrants, but like I said, that did backfire.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/02/euro ... index.html

Certainly the more north you go, the more that immigration was one of the main reasons for leaving the EU. If you never been in North Yorkshire, or even farther up north, then you probably won't really understand.

Still, its pointless now, because its done, and pointless now, that we have left, and might regret it. But all in all, along with the pandemic, things will hit the UK pretty badly.
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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Thu, 21. Jan 21, 22:03

matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:48
But considering it has taken a long time to come up with some kind of trade deal, and that the general public should have had another choice to vote. I feel that we were pushed into this. The EU sure looked at their own interests. But again, the trade deal, took a long time, even then I don't think there were all that fair.
Of course it took a long time. It was always going to take a long time. Everyone said it would take a long time, apart from the politicians on the leave side, who were lying.
matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:48
I just felt that the other side, were a lot of fear mongering, rather then hard facts.
You can't have it both ways. A moment ago you said that the "other side" didn't present their case, and now you are dismissing what they said as fear-mongering. It wasn't fear-mongering; those were the facts, and what you are seeing now is precisely what those people said coming to pass. The fact that it was dismissed as fear-mongering was precisely the problem. Again, the people who did that were just lying, but people chose to believe them because they were saying what they wanted to hear.
matthewfarmery wrote:
Thu, 21. Jan 21, 20:48
But again, I still feel that the public should have had a one final choice to vote to remain or leave, once we got the trade deal.
The irony is that when remain-voters proposed that at the time, they were, once again, dismissed and accused of moaning and fear-mongering.

Even more ironic is the fact that the real fear-mongering was coming from the people claiming we had no control over our borders.

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