Brexit

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BugMeister
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Re: Brexit

Post by BugMeister » Wed, 23. Jan 19, 15:22

Dyson has become yet another oligarch..
having achieved his aim, he runs off giggling..

- recognise a pattern here..??
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 23. Jan 19, 16:37

To be fair to Dyson he always seemed to me to be pretty transparent about why he supported Brexit, he thought it would result in taxation arrangements beneficial to both himself and his company (and by extension others, but he can only really speak for his IMO). It doesn't come as much of a surprise (to me at least) that he has found such arrangements in Singapore, which also benefits from a recently signed trade deal with the EU . . . . something the UK won't be getting for quite a while once/if we leave. I never saw his support as being especially rooted in British patriotism.

This BTW is also the reason most other prominent Brexiteers are in favour. They might talk a good talk about fully bodied British nationalism but the real reason most of them are all for it is to protect or increase their own personal wealth*.
Its no coincidence that this has all kicked off at exactly the same time the EU began legislating to crack down on tax evasion by the rich. Just look at who funded the two major Leave campaigns.

*With the possible exception of the Weatherspoons guy. . . . its seems entirely likely that Brexit will do serious or even fatal harm to his business. He's either not the smartest cookie or pulling some elaborate insurance scam. :roll:
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Chips
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Re: Brexit

Post by Chips » Wed, 23. Jan 19, 19:57

BugMeister wrote:
Wed, 23. Jan 19, 13:19
- ah yas, Dyson got his favourable ruling on the EU regulations by virtue of actually being IN EUROPE..
- and having succeeded, he moves his operation abroad to take advantage of low pay-rates and poorer working conditions..

- what a guy! :evil:
Erm, the cleaners, washing machines and nearly all other things Dyson have been manufactured in Asia/Singapore since 2002 onwards. Only the research and development is in the UK - for which he does employ a large workforce of highly skilled folks. So "taking advantage of low pay..." it's been that way for years mate. Just like every other manufactured item you use. Dyson is no different in that respect. The R&D remains, HQ moves. It's not a biggy employment wise so nowt to do with wages in that respect.

Now he's shifted the HQ to take advantage of a trade deal - and considering everything is made there already - why not? Note he hasn't shifted it to the EU - wonder why. Probably because the biggest markets are in Asia for his future :P

At the end of the day - PEOPLE voted to leave Europe. Companies have, and always will, move for whatever reason. It's entirely possible that HQ move would have happened regardless of Brexit.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 23. Jan 19, 21:38

An interesting article, I'm don't know enough about parliamentary procedure to be sure its 100% accurate but it certainly rings true.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was the case.

Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you
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Re: Brexit

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 23. Jan 19, 21:48

Brexit: German government suggests UK should ‘think again’ about leaving EU with second referendum

Here's another:

Merkel’s minister demands second Brexit referendum after May's Plan B 'disappoints'

So, Germany/Merkel is suggesting the UK hold a "do-over" vote. But, that's not what I find the most interesting - Note how the headlines read.

"Suggests"

versus

"Demands"

Golly, it's almost as if where the news actually comes from has more impact than the news, itself. I can't find where there's any "demand" in any of this, but I guess Europe is a bit wary whenever Germany goes around "suggesting" things... ;) :)
Chips wrote:
Wed, 23. Jan 19, 19:57
...At the end of the day - PEOPLE voted to leave Europe. Companies have, and always will, move for whatever reason. It's entirely possible that HQ move would have happened regardless of Brexit.
A 2% margin is the only reasonable excuse I could find. The rest of what's claimed is BS in news articles, since they're only moving two employees to Singapore. Two. "2" <--- This many. And, perhaps, it may have to do with other Singapore tax laws involving inheritance taxes. Not sure how all that meshes with the whole "Commonwealth of Nations" agreements, but it must be significant even so.

Note: It's possible if they're expecting to do a lot of manufacturing that they are, indeed, taking advantage of labor/regulation issues. BUT, that's a manufacturing excuse, not an HQ move excuse. According to Dyson, they're moving two people, one of whom is himself, who plans on flying back and forth as needed. Like... yeah, that'll last. (Everyone things "Oh, I'll just fly back and forth and it will be just fine" at first. Then, they actually start doing it and discover how crappy that sort of life is.

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Re: Brexit

Post by BugMeister » Thu, 24. Jan 19, 15:32

- so Dyson's only in it for the money?
- gosh..!!

- hey, guess what, so are the people working for him.. :roll:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 24. Jan 19, 15:41

BugMeister wrote:
Thu, 24. Jan 19, 15:32
- so Dyson's only in it for the money?
- gosh..!!

- hey, guess what, so are the people working for him.. :roll:
/Agreed

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Chips
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Re: Brexit

Post by Chips » Thu, 24. Jan 19, 16:34

Morkonan wrote:
Wed, 23. Jan 19, 21:48
A 2% margin is the only reasonable excuse I could find. The rest of what's claimed is BS in news articles, since they're only moving two employees to Singapore. Two. "2" <--- This many. And, perhaps, it may have to do with other Singapore tax laws involving inheritance taxes. Not sure how all that meshes with the whole "Commonwealth of Nations" agreements, but it must be significant even so.

Note: It's possible if they're expecting to do a lot of manufacturing that they are, indeed, taking advantage of labor/regulation issues. BUT, that's a manufacturing excuse, not an HQ move excuse. According to Dyson, they're moving two people, one of whom is himself, who plans on flying back and forth as needed. Like... yeah, that'll last. (Everyone things "Oh, I'll just fly back and forth and it will be just fine" at first. Then, they actually start doing it and discover how crappy that sort of life is.
2% margin on what, corporation tax? I think that's not looking hard enough :D Are there any existing tax breaks for Singapore companies trading with different trading blocks? I don't know if (because all manufacturing for Dyson is done there) they would be exempt as it's manufactured in Asia, or whether there are other concerns (i.e tarrifs against EU companies would include Dyson despite manufacturing in Singapore in the event of China / EU tensions).

However, I'm fairly sure there's a different tax rate for Directors of companies and likely on dividends too - of significant benefit. That'd (depending upon how casual it is) make a massive difference to his personal wealth if he's paying himself dividends.

Bottom line, it's 2 people moving, not an entire workforce. There's very little difference in that respect - just in corporation tax and whatever happens to his own personal income by becoming a Singapore resident vs UK one ;) That personal benefit is wholly independent of Brexit. People have pointed out the entire EU->Singapore trade deal makes zero odds to his HQ movement as the production is there already, so it's not gaining anything in that respect by "escaping the UK" as it'd make no difference to his EU trading anyway. So ... is it a corporation tax difference (again, Brexit independent factor), personal wealth, or some mystical Brexit reason?

If it's really Brexit, what is the benefit of the move? Not read anything that says there is one yet! But people do love a good rant - often without foundation. So the initial post I responded to which claimed slave wages blah blah blah blah... is either without foundation, or 16 years of criticism too late.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 24. Jan 19, 16:43

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... rective_en
"Member States should apply these measures as from 1 January 2019."

The UK is still a member state. . . . . hmmmmm, gee I wonder why Mr Dyson has chosen January 2019 to personally move out of the EU? :roll:
If Brexit goes through, and if it results in the taxation policy he no doubt hopes it will then I'm sure he'll be back.
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Re: Brexit

Post by BugMeister » Fri, 25. Jan 19, 16:17

- a VERY large portion of the UK economy is being held to ransom through the use of (illegal) off-shore banking..
- we have known this for YEARS.. this is not news.. I agree, our leaving the EU will be of great benefit to these thieves..
- it is not just coincidence that the Tories (- and other oligarchs..) are all in favour of us leaving the EU, and basing their so-called "patriotism" and "sovereignty" schtick
- on the spurious (- almost dead draw..) result of a severely bent and twisted "referendum" speaks volumes..

- it's been a massive con since day one.. :evil:
Last edited by BugMeister on Fri, 25. Jan 19, 16:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 25. Jan 19, 16:20

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgXCKqdtBXU

Andrew Neil's This Week skewers the WTO / Brexit subject - worth a look if you have five minutes spare.
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020

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Re: Brexit

Post by BugMeister » Fri, 25. Jan 19, 17:14

when you factor in the offshore theft, the plot becomes clearer..
having robbed the exchequer (via favourable tax rates) and having sold off all National Assets to the lowest bidder - and silenced dissent via media manipulation..
- the easiest way to secure the proceeds is to funnel it off-shore into the morass of confusion that exists out there in the dark, for safe-keeping..

it's a plan that's been in the offing since before Thatcher's time..
and it demonstrates everything that's bad about a particularly nasty form of self-serving "Konservatism"

- the US is heading for the same iceberg..
the trillions that were robbed from the US exchequer when Trump came to power, will eventually be squirrelled away in nefarious activities..

- a dystopian view?
- not 'arf.. :wink:

- international agreement is required to ensure probity..
- rather like the Federation, in Start Trek..
- or the EU, NATO, DAVOS, G7 et al.

- notwithstanding the Klingons and the Romulans.. :lol:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Morkonan » Sat, 26. Jan 19, 19:41

I need some help understanding something...

A few days ago, I had a meeting with some smart people. Their answer is the same as mine, if anyone else had asked this question.

WHY is the U.K. STILL acting like they are on "Day 2" of this monumental point in their history?

Why?

Seriously - Why?

I'm an outsider looking in. I realize this. I don't have to live there. I interact with many of you good people here on the forums that do have to live there. And, there are plenty of E.U. citizens who we all enjoy interacting with on these forums, too. So, in a sense, we're "Forum Neighbors" and "Friends." So, I ask you, neighbors and friends, to help answer this damnable difficult to fathom question - Why is the U.K. still acting like they are on "Day 2" of this monumental point in their history?

What I see from here on the other side of the pond is a complete ___show of political incompetence and zero, and I do mean "zero", leadership. That's leadership on any side, since nobody has been able to get anything done after the most monumental political decision the U.K. has undertaken this generation. One can say what one wishes, but even Trump's administration isn't going to chew the U.S. apart as bad as this long moment of complete indecision has the potential to do for the U.K.

Picture this - A country has the most pervasive and significant economic decision to make in the lifetime of its citizens today and they've had almost three years to figure it out, but have done nothing except blankly watch the deadline head towards them like a deer caught in the spotlight of their own missteps...

No, it's not "my place" to just blithely criticize the leadership of another nation that I have little personal connection with and even less knowledge of... But, the U.K.'s leadership and their lack of responsibility here is going to eventually impact me in some way and certainly many of the lives of the good people on this forum. So, yeah, it is my place to offer such criticism in that respect.

To put it in a little bit of perspective, Brexit's impact on the daily lives of those in the U.K. will be orders of magnitude more significant and notable than Trump, then Obamacare, than anyone the U.S. feels like bombing next week, than U.S. debt, than anything short of another 2008 Financial Crisis x 1.5. And, the leadership is still acting like it's "Day 2" with little argument going further than "Day 2" concerns like "Well, I guess we're gonna have a lot of extra E.U. flags by the time all this is done."

There's the rising volume of a flushing noise in the background and U.K. leadership is still acting like they have all the time in the world...
BugMeister wrote:
Fri, 25. Jan 19, 17:14
...
- the US is heading for the same iceberg..
the trillions that were robbed from the US exchequer when Trump came to power, will eventually be squirrelled away in nefarious activities..
...
London is arguably the financial capital of Europe. Germany is certainly the financial powerhouse of the continental E.U., though. After Brexit, the E.U. will practically be "Germany et al." But, if someone wanted to hide money or steal it, they'd have a flat in Europe next to a bank... :)

Not sure which "trillions" you're talking about for the U.S., but what has been done with most of any of the surplus gained by corporations with the lowering of corporate tax has been used in stock buybacks, which was warned against by everyone except for the Trump Administration... That did have the effect of making certain people "richer." But, it's hardly theft - The money is still there, still working, still being invested, still being used to make more money. That's the thing about money - If it isn't working and moving, it's worthless.

The one issue is that many companies chose stock buy-backs rather than investing in company expansion, modernization, infrastructure, logistics, ie - All the things that would make them more competitive. Neglecting using that windfall to strengthen their competitive edge will have a negative effect in the long-term. But, nobody gives a crap about long-term plans, these days. Everyone is only concerned with next week or possibly, for certain foreward-thinking corporations, next month.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Chips » Sat, 26. Jan 19, 20:09

What do you mean by "Day 2", I'm not sure what you consider they've done?

I have to stress, for what feels like the millionth time (and it's depressing I feel the need to say it), I voted remain. However, there's lots of questions with little show of inclination to look at the actual figures.
a VERY large portion of the UK economy is being held to ransom through the use of (illegal) off-shore banking..
Which proportion and how? What on earth do you mean?
we have known this for YEARS.. this is not news.. I agree, our leaving the EU will be of great benefit to these thieves..
Why will it be of benefit? It (allegedly) happened during our EU membership.
it is not just coincidence that the Tories (- and other oligarchs..) are all in favour of us leaving the EU, and basing their so-called "patriotism" and "sovereignty" schtick
Demonstrably false. Some of the loudest remain voices are Tories - including Ken Clarke.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/h ... um-9187679
186 Tories voted to remain, 135 voted leave, 9 unknown.

So as the party with the greatest number of leave voting MP's, I'd agree (ignoring UKIP having.. 1 was it? :D ). But the majority? Absolutely balderdash from yourself - get a grip for Christ's sake.

However, can't "defend" Oligarchs, as I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I assume you mean "rich people", or do you mean business leaders? I'm definitely not aware of business leaders cheering for Brexit. Quite the opposite.
https://technation.io/news/tech-leaders ... ain-in-eu/
Seven out of ten tech business founders and investors intend to vote Remain in June’s referendum. Some of the UK’s fastest growing tech companies explain why they back the Remain campaign
So ... is it just rich people you meant? or Government?

It hasn't been a massive con since day one. People voting for exit didn't really vote to leave because a bus siding that they never even saw (only heard on the news) said "£350 million a week for the NHS" (was it a week?). Those people voted exit because it's been inbred into the British mentality for 30+ years that Europe is bad, not to be trusted, against us. Our entire media have been bashing Europe for decades. "We can't have bendy bananas, terrorist to be free because of European convention on human rights, they're fishing our waters..."
on the spurious (- almost dead draw..) result of a severely bent and twisted "referendum" speaks volumes.

1.3 million more people wanted to leave than remain. Not exactly "dead draw".

Said before I'll stop posting about political stuff -and I really should. Some of the posts read like a tabloid newspaper's comment section - depressing.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 26. Jan 19, 20:41

BugMeister wrote " it is not just coincidence that the Tories (- and other oligarchs..) are all in favour of us leaving the EU,"

I think you will find that in the Tory Cabinet, even the direct opposite may be closer to the truth - unless we are in parallel universes of course. :) This partly explains the confused logjam that we are currently in.
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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Sat, 26. Jan 19, 23:09

Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 26. Jan 19, 19:41
....Why...?
Bloody good question.

I'll have a stab at this, but I will need fortification. Back in ten minutes :P and it will likely take me an hour or so to actually write something up that's worth reading.
Last edited by RegisterMe on Sat, 26. Jan 19, 23:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Sat, 26. Jan 19, 23:11

@Mork

Put simply
- The British public voted for a Unicorn
- The politicians responsible for delivering the Unicorn know full well they don't exist, and knew so on day 1
- Who ever eventually has to tell the public this is ****ed
- Thus starts a 2 year long political game of "Hot Potato"
- Whoever loses has to sheepishly push out a donkey with a carrot taped to it's forehead
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 26. Jan 19, 23:38

Bishop149 wrote:
Sat, 26. Jan 19, 23:11
Put simply
- The British public voted for a Unicorn
And ... why did they? :?
Reading comprehension is hard.
Reading with prejudice makes comprehension harder.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Sun, 27. Jan 19, 00:43

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 26. Jan 19, 23:38
And ... why did they? :?
Because they thought the Unicorn would magically fix all of their problems.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Sun, 27. Jan 19, 00:54

Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 26. Jan 19, 19:41
Just quoting you because it seems to be the only way to poke somebody on the new format forums
Anyway, in answer to your question, I wrote an essay, and then distilled it down to this:-

On the part of the leaders of the UK; arrogance, complacency, ignorance, ambition on behalf of party, fear of opposition party, personal ambition, and a dose of "fug, looking around me, who is actually capable of pulling this off". With a healthy dose of stupidity and insensitivity added in for good measure. On the part of the people of the UK, wanting to believe in easy solutions that don't exist in reality (fed by those previously mentioned leaders).
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020

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