Brexit

[RegisterMe]

Thanks. Regarding Ireland and the "backstop", what's to stop leaving EU if must be, negotiate border "density" with Ireland and move on? Isn't that between Ireland and U.K? Nothing to do with EU.

I'll likely get some of this wrong, but it should be there or thereabouts:-

1. The EU needs to maintain the integrity of its internal Common Market. This necessitates "hard" borders with countries outside of that Common Market.
2. The EU, the Republic of Ireland and the UK were signatories to the Good Friday Agreement, this gives them all a say in anything that jeopardises it.
3. The EU, the Republic of Ireland and the UK all agreed that, as part of the UK's leaving the EU, a hard border was to be avoided.
4. Leave aside concerns about terrorism and ~50% of the Republic's exports are to the UK. Of the remainder the majority go to the EU, and the majority of those go via the UK.
5. Each of the 27 EU countries has to agree to the Brexit deal, in effect this gives the Republic a veto.

To resolve this "need a hard border but can't have one" problem a backstop was agreed upon. Essentially this says that Northern Ireland will stay in the Customs Union. However the Democratic Unionist Party (the DUP) perceives this to be a separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK, which they abhor. And Theresa May's Conservative Party is dependent on the DUP to maintain their majority in the House Of Commons. To add yet more complexity to it the EU require the backstop to be legally binding, and it will only be lifted when such "technological solutions", as promised in such an offhand fashion by senior Brexit leaders, come to fruition.

Of course those same senior Brexit leaders reject the idea of a backstop out of hand, believing that it means, essentially, that the UK will remain in the customs union in perpetuity.

tldr it's a mess.

[JSDD]

here's my suggestion:

- secure the border, put troops from the EU and ireland all over the place!
(split say: shoot first, ask questions later ..)
- tomorrow, sign a hard brexit deal, get over that negotiation mess!
- let britain decide if they want to have the 4 ESSENTIAL freedoms of the EU which are
--> free movement of goods
--> free movement of capital
--> freedom to establish and provide services
--> free movement of persons

there are only 2 options: yes or no. no negotiating. amen! very easy.
if brits dont want to have romanians and polish to work in their country, forget about joining the customs union. go for india and china, the US, or ethiopia, whatever ... but dont bug the EU and their territories (which includes ireland by the way)

free trade agreement ?! ... i'm all for it, but under our (= the EU's) conditions.
otherwise, a few % customs tarif doesnt mean the end of the world ...

[Morkonan]

Why can't U.K. simply exit the EU and be treated the same as any other non-EU country? Why all the fuss?

Because they wouldn't get to keep all the good stuffs they like and they'd have to deal with stuffs they don't like! I mean, come on, golll....

I get if a country is part of the EU, that country will enjoy certain benefits. Surely UK doesn't expect to be the recipient of any of those benefits - otherwise they wouldn't have voted to leave? But so what?

Look. There's only so much common sense allowed in this thread. You're getting dangerously close to the limit.

Leave, cut the strings of advantage and go about business like the rest of us and as UK did before EU inception.

But, they're Special!



They're a strong contender for the First Place "We screwed up our entire civilization" trophy for this epoc.

Oh, I forgot, it's more complicated than that....Sorry.

No... No, you are not.

[Mightysword]

Why can't U.K. simply exit the EU and be treated the same as any other non-EU country? Why all the fuss?
I get if a country is part of the EU, that country will enjoy certain benefits. Surely UK doesn't expect to be the recipient of any of those benefits - otherwise they wouldn't have voted to leave? But so what?
Leave, cut the strings of advantage and go about business like the rest of us and as UK did before EU inception.

I consider Obamacare is a shit law, from the way it was passed to the way it's implemented. But if I have to give it credit for one thing, then it is from this point onward we will always have a healthcare law in place (good or bad). No matter what Republican wants to say, they know they will never be able to remove it without offering something in its place, since simply going back to the time before we had it is not acceptable to many people who are benefiting from the current law. The idea is once you give people a taste of the few good things they didn't have before, most will not part with it willingly.

It's the same for Brexit. The problem is when life is good, people always have a tendency of focusing on the bad things and generally not aware of the good things they had taken for granted. Objectively, being in the EU has its benefit and also baggage to carry, but I feel it's not a discussion that had received a balance and honest debate. People believe they can get rid of all the bad things and still keep the good things, in fact, I bet many people were enjoying the good things without knowing they come with the bad things they hate as a whole package, and are now terrifying with the reality that if you let go of one. Strangely this is the only time I think the saying "you can't have a cake and eat it too" is actually appropriated. People have been told we can eat the cake and it still will be there. Well, I think upon realizing if you eat a cake, it's not gonna be there no more, UK is antagonizing with the question "should we really eat the cake then!?".

IMO, a healthy relationship -whether it's on the international relation state or personal- have to be maintained that both parties feel they are mutually in need of each others. The moment you start putting up the question "which one of us need the other more?" then it doesn't matter what you will find as an answer, that relationship is going south.

[Bishop149]

To resolve this "need a hard border but can't have one" problem a backstop was agreed upon. Essentially this says that Northern Ireland will stay in the Customs Union.

Slight correction here.
Its not just NI that has to stay in a Customs Union with the EU in order to avoid a hard border under the backstop, its the entirety of the UK.
I believe there's some fine print that hints and some degree of deviation, but not much.

Just aligning NI with the EU and essentially shifting that "hard border" so that it runs down the middle of the Irish Sea instead of between I and NI is perhaps a reasonable solution to the whole issue and was indeed suggested.
It was THAT which was rejected by the DUP who's whole raison d'etre is that NI must remain 100% identical to the rest of the UK
The Tories who need the support of the DUP (having paid £billion for it) to maintain their majority, so anything the DUP don't like won't pass.
Given that the Irish border issue was entirely predicable the Tories choosing hard-line Unionists to prop up their government was SPECTACULARLY stupid and yet another example of our politicians valuing power over the national interest.

[RegisterMe]

@Bishop149 cheers!

[Chips]

I think there are two problems with this suggestion - one is that it's very much not 52% of the nation, it's 52% of people who actually voted.

A very good point.

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit- ... ts-7399226
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-p ... -chart.jpg
But secondly, the alternative is telling the 48% of people who voted (who are also the 48% that actually had a clear idea of what they were voting for!), and not to mention the large number of people affected by it but who couldn't vote, that they're stupid, you do not care what they think, and you're not going to do what they wish... which is exactly why this whole thing was so stupid in the first place. It was only ever going to be divisive - even if as they expected Remain had won easily, it would have produced divisions that weren't there before because hardly anybody cared. Literally all of this was foreseeable, but they did it anyway.

Disagree on that one - as it's a vote and a majority of the voting public had their say. Just like an election - a proportionate amount of the electorate didn't get what they voted for - but they're the minority and that's how an election works.

So it's not saying "you're stupid" to 48%, it's just saying "you were outvoted". That's all. That's how votes work. But to turn around and say to the majority of voters "meh, we don't care you were the majority" is dangerous ground. The reason for why? What's the point in having elections full stop? Go full on dictatorship if you're going to not enact what's voted for by the public.

This is the sort of stuff I worry about happening post all this though:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

It heavily criticised the current NHS drug approval system, pointing to the cap on the price of drugs as too restrictive, and highlighting insufficient healthcare budgets and "rigid" national processes.

Meaning - we want more money and to bleed you dry. Healthcare could take a hit again, and that could be just catastrophically bad. Add to that their demands our food standards are lowered, eurgh, no thanks. Then again, the recent cows that are at deaths door with illness being slaughtered doesn't fill you with confidence in the system we have anyway!

[Morkonan]

...Meaning - we want more money and to bleed you dry. Healthcare could take a hit again, and that could be just catastrophically bad. Add to that their demands our food standards are lowered, eurgh, no thanks. Then again, the recent cows that are at deaths door with illness being slaughtered doesn't fill you with confidence in the system we have anyway!

All of that is valid.

I'd also say that all of it is typical when countries with differing "standards" attempt "Trade Negotiations." BUT, I'd also say that each country has to work to protect the interests of its citizens.

Some things could be good, though. For instance, some "standards" might be better in one place vs the other. Some standards might not be acceptable due to differing cultures, too. And, some are most definitely a result of B.S. that occurs in one country that doesn't occur in the other.

In my experience, compliance with trade or regulatory issues in the international arena is a friggin' nightmare... It IS a barrier that can be hard to get over. In my opinion, for those in Europe et al, you all can thank Germany for that... (The powerhouse of powerhouses for regulatory compliance issues. )

Eventually, if the US and UK want to negotiate trade-related regulatory issues, they will. The absolutely will. And, it's possible that some common UK regulations that UK citizens feel are superior will, in fact, disappear.

But, make no mistake - US Industry, if they want to trade in the UK bad enough, will make changes on the US side of manufacturing and compliance to produce special "UK ONLY" products. That will absolutely happen if they feel it is necessary.

PS - Screw the drug companies and their predatory practices in that regard. They just want to make up profits for loss-leading the way into other markets. That begins said, though, if they get into UK markets with favorable treatment, dump some money in stocks or mutual fund shares that focus on those companies. They will have a FIELD DAY! I wouldn't be surprised if they change UK broadcasting standards and UK citizens end up watching tons of television commercials for prescription pharmaceuticals. (So, invest in private television companies in the UK, while you're at it. )

[BugMeister]

Floyd got it right - hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way..
mind you, it's about time we changed and started taking politics seriously..
- Screaming Lord Sutch had his merits, but hey..

[Bishop149]

Ugggggg
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46959545
We now go live to Theresa May arriving at Brussels to renegotiate with the EU


Seriously. . . how bloody long do we now have to wait until the EU just says "No" and we're right back to where we were yesterday.

Mrs May is now in the unenviable position of having to:
- ask the EU to renegotiate the the thing they have repeatedly stated is not open for renegotiation.
- explain to them that she and all three of her Brexit secretaries just voted against the deal they themselves negotiated.
- tell them that the main sticking point is an item that the UK side insisted upon.
- Tell them that if they can't do a deal there is also a parliamentary mandate rejecting "no deal".
Utter farce.

It also worth noting the following
- Our future outside Europe will depend heavily on our ability to negotiate effectively with other countries, we are currently showing ourselves to be incapable of negotiating in good faith.
- In order to leave the EU with "No Deal" the first thing we will need to do is transfer all of EU legislation into British law, this is a colossal legislative undertaking requiring effective and efficient governance . . . . does it look for a second like that is what we have? Frankly it would have been challenging if we'd devoted the whole 2 years to it, as it stands we have about a month left and we've barely started.

[pjknibbs]

Seriously. . . how bloody long do we now have to wait until the EU just says "No" and we're right back to where we were yesterday.

We don't have to wait at all, they've already said that the deal already on the table is the only one there is. This is why this whole situation is more than usually futile. I genuinely wonder why the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg think we have any cards at all in this negotiation, and how they're thinking anything is going to change.

[Bishop149]

I just kinda assumed we would have to somehow be formally told "no", seeing as all the "We will say no" from the EU to date has only resulted in the UK's response being "Yeah, you say that. . . but will you REALLY?!"

[BugMeister]

- things don't look too clever:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... urn-corbyn

We’re here, then. The point at which a Labour leadership that won support for being different ends up being the same.
The stage that jaded observers warned was an inevitability of politics, no matter who was in charge.
The day that a political project with impeccably pro-migration credentials triangulated into abstention on a miserable, destructive Conservative immigration bill.

eeek - the draconians are coming..!!

[BugMeister]

just because someone wears a top hat and double-breasted suit, doesn't mean he's not a gangster..
- look at Roger Stone - look at Arbuthnot Rees-Smegg, Oberleutnant Farage or Lord Snooty Boris-Johnson..

..on second thoughts don't - it's just more of that old klash-kulture konflict..
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ss-leavers
- onward into the bright new future, and all that other "referendum" klaptrap..

[BugMeister]

the Specials - The Lunatics..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THjBJk8R2MY

- currently No.1 on the UK album charts..
- most excellent..!!

[BugMeister]

examples of crass hypocrisy by Brexiteers in the UK..

freedom of movement - quick, before it's gone:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... onaco-move

- he calls it saving tax..
- we call it stealing from the rest of us..
- with the added advantage of the theft continuing year-on year..
- and no way to get caught
- orchestrated by thieving accountants

- yeah, I know - it's legal..
- but it sure as hell ain't right..

[Bishop149]

Brexit just isn't happening fast enough for these people.
The EU is cracking down on tax avoidance by the rich
- That's why they funded the Leave campaigns
- That's why they're all leaving the UK/EU now (within a month of the new laws coming into effect),
- That's why they're so keen on "no deal", it's by far the quickest option and will leave the UK so weakened its more likely to become the tax haven they want it to be.
Once we've left and not subject to all those pesky EU laws they may well all come back if we give them nice the nice juicy tax breaks they want.

On another subject, this is nuts.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... itics-live

We have the weakest most shambolic government of my lifetime (likely ever) and some how its the sodding OPPOSITION that have managed to fall apart.
Labour are an utter catastrophe, they should be 15 points ahead in the polls instead they trailing by 6, periodically surging forward to. . . . . ummmm near parity whenever they have the occasional outbreak of common sense.

Oh, as an aside: Worst. Name. Ever.
They sound like insurance brokers, one that was forced to think of a name in 5 seconds flat at that.

Edit:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... w-14015437
[Apologies for redtop link, couldn't find a better source]

"We are leaving to found a new party because Labour is institutionally racist!"
[half a morning later]
"We are sorry to announce that our new party is institutionally racist"

Christ on a bike.

[Mightysword]

We have the weakest most shambolic government of my lifetime (likely ever) and some how its the sodding OPPOSITION that have managed to fall apart.

Said last weekend I know the UK won't take it lying down after Trump's national emergency.

On the bright side, now this theatrical is entering a new act with Trump declaring a national emergency, I'm eagerly awaiting what the UK gonna cook up over the weekend in their own play of Brexit. I doubt our brothers and sisters over the Atlantic will sit down and let us outshit them without a response.

Reading the BBC on Monday morning ... wasn't disappointed

[BugMeister]

popcorn sales sky-rocket..
shares in the popcorn industry reach record levels

PREDICTION>>
six months from now several MP's face charges of insider trading, as the popcorn bubble bursts..
- it's just more of the same..

- nurse, the screens..!!
*yawn*

[Grimmrog]

popcorn sales sky-rocket..
shares in the popcorn industry reach record levels

PREDICTION>>
six months from now several MP's face charges of insider trading, as the popcorn bubble bursts..
- it's just more of the same..

- nurse, the screens..!!
*yawn*

better stock up on popcorn if you are form UK, might be after brexit that you have a shortage there