Brexit

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felter
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Re: Brexit

Post by felter » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 18:38

There is a story in the BBC today with Nissan cars which builds and employs 7000 people in Sunderland, there is one part of the story that I find pretty amazing considering that there is only probably 3 weeks till we leave the UK without a deal. Anyway the Nissan boss man said:
We do not know still what a no-deal means.


Why with such a short time till we leave and Johnson screaming we are leaving even if we don't get/have a deal. Yet these major manufacturers who rely on EU exports and employ thousands have not got a clue what a no deal means to them, and how it will effect their business. What the hell is the government doing and playing at.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Chips » Thu, 10. Oct 19, 18:50

felter wrote:
Wed, 2. Oct 19, 19:46
It's interesting listening to the views of the Brexiteers and others and just how insane some of them can be, just never ask them for facts on what they are talking about.

Insane views.

I liked the first one.
I liked 31:30 - completely bonkers :D

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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Fri, 11. Oct 19, 09:57

RegisterMe wrote:
Tue, 8. Oct 19, 17:47
While I agree with you in that I think that's what he was aiming for all along I haven't actually seen anything that states that Johnson has said he's going for no deal. Have you got a link? Especially if it explains how he's going to get round parliament?
Just to say, I wasn't ignoring this. I've looked for a link to the article, but I can't find it. When I said "come clean" I meant more that he'd done so in private and that it had been leaked than that he'd actually stated it publicly. This came from an article based on "a source close to the government" as usual, and based on the BBC's recent record of reporting such sources, I'm more inclined to believe them than any public statements by Boris and co. Regarding getting round parliament, it essentially said that he would deliver the letter as required by the law, but also threaten any country that agreed to the terms requested by the letter with various forms of non-cooperation.

Incidentally, I'm aware of the irony of me trusting the BBC's word on things like this, given my usual position on "the press". I have to say, though, that the political team at the BBC, particularly Laura Kuenssberg and Katya Adler, have been doing an excellent job of making the Byzantine complexity of the whole Brexit process, and all the political wrangling around it, accessible to those who want to know what's going on. It serves as a salutary reminder that good quality journalism is a positive thing, and that it can still be found amid all the sensationalist rubbish.

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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 11. Oct 19, 10:07

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 11. Oct 19, 09:57
RegisterMe wrote:
Tue, 8. Oct 19, 17:47
While I agree with you in that I think that's what he was aiming for all along I haven't actually seen anything that states that Johnson has said he's going for no deal. Have you got a link? Especially if it explains how he's going to get round parliament?
Just to say, I wasn't ignoring this. I've looked for a link to the article, but I can't find it. When I said "come clean" I meant more that he'd done so in private and that it had been leaked than that he'd actually stated it publicly. This came from an article based on "a source close to the government" as usual, and based on the BBC's recent record of reporting such sources, I'm more inclined to believe them than any public statements by Boris and co. Regarding getting round parliament, it essentially said that he would deliver the letter as required by the law, but also threaten any country that agreed to the terms requested by the letter with various forms of non-cooperation.

Incidentally, I'm aware of the irony of me trusting the BBC's word on things like this, given my usual position on "the press". I have to say, though, that the political team at the BBC, particularly Laura Kuenssberg and Katya Adler, have been doing an excellent job of making the Byzantine complexity of the whole Brexit process, and all the political wrangling around it, accessible to those who want to know what's going on. It serves as a salutary reminder that good quality journalism is a positive thing, and that it can still be found amid all the sensationalist rubbish.
No problem. I was just curious because I hadn't seen anything definitive either, and was interested if I'd missed something :).
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Re: Brexit

Post by Santi » Thu, 17. Oct 19, 21:01

Will Boris get the deal approved in Saturday? Seems people are optimistic that he will prevail where May failed. I think it will be down to how much discipline Corbyn can enforce within the Labour party. If it gets approved that will be a huge boost for Boris and the Conservative party in electoral terms.

Then we will see how the economic deal pans out, that I believe is where people is expecting to make significant gains compared to being in the EU.
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Re: Brexit

Post by pjknibbs » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 08:52

At this stage I think it's down to how many politicians are willing to vote for what's best for the country rather than along party political lines. When all's said and done, this is the deal we have, it's not going to change between now and October 31st and the EU have ruled out another extension, so if it gets voted down we're leaving the EU with no deal no matter what Parliament wants. We already know that's really what Boris wants, so to my mind a vote for this deal is actually a vote *against* Boris, which everyone should be happy for.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 10:08

The EU ruled out an extension? Are you sure? I dont recall reading or hearing that on any of my sources, granted I'm starting to phase out when Brexit is on the news and maybe I just didnt listen.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 10:28

Ketraar wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 10:08
The EU ruled out an extension? Are you sure? I dont recall reading or hearing that on any of my sources, granted I'm starting to phase out when Brexit is on the news and maybe I just didnt listen.

MFG

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This is a slight (and probably very deliberate for clickbait) misrepresentation of what Junker said.
I tried to find the video again but can't, forgive me, I will have to paraphrase from memory

When asked if there would be an extension he said
"There is no need, we have agreed a deal"

When asked the obvious follow up question of "What if the British parliament don't agree?" he said something along the lines of:
"That is a matter for the UK, I can not comment"
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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 12:48

There was definitely an article on the BBC front page yesterday which said, fairly clearly, that Juncker had said there would be no extension. Typically, however, I can no longer find it. The latest articles, however, are suggesting that while this is the public position, primarily to try to push the deal through, privately there are people saying that an extension would be granted if necessary.

The problem is that there is a lot of double bluffing going on, with off-the-record briefings being used to push different agendas just as much as the public ones. In fact, my last post on the subject notwithstanding, I'm increasingly leaning towards the idea that Boris' apparent embracing of no deal is just such a double bluff, intended to frighten people into supporting whatever else he comes up with.

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Re: Brexit

Post by pjknibbs » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 12:57

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 12:48
There was definitely an article on the BBC front page yesterday which said, fairly clearly, that Juncker had said there would be no extension.
Yeah, that's the one I remember, but like you, I can't find it again now.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 13:11

To comment briefly on the deal.

It would seem that in almost every regard this deal is inferior to the one secured by Theresa May and voted down 3 times.
The much vaunted solution to "the backstop" appears to be transforming it into "the frontstop", and people who objected to a thing that might kick in under certain circumstances years down the line are now apparently cheering basically a very similar thing just in effect from the jump.
Edit: Also I have NO idea how its going to work. . . . how the hell are they going to identify goods "at risk" of entering the single market via NI? I suspect tariffs will just apply to everything with a few VERY specific exceptions.
If, and its a big if but looking at least somewhat possible, Boris get this new and anti-improved Withdrawal Agreement 1.02 through the Commons it might be a quite stunning demonstration of what mere possession of a penis (and an Etonian one no less) can do for you. :roll:

Actually, that's slightly disingenuous, whilst I'm sure there is a fair degree of good old fashioned misogyny at play here there's doubtless a larger portion of Brexiteer vs Remoaner going on.
- "May was a bloody Remoaner, OF COURSE she got us a bad deal"
- "Boris is a courageous Brexiteer, OF COURSE his deal will be better"
pjknibbs wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 12:57
Yeah, that's the one I remember, but like you, I can't find it again now.
Funny how these things vanish, huh?
I encountered the same when looking for the actual video of Junkers comments, which I think was also hosted by the BBC.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Golden_Gonads » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 14:18

pjknibbs wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 12:57
CBJ wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 12:48
There was definitely an article on the BBC front page yesterday which said, fairly clearly, that Juncker had said there would be no extension.
Yeah, that's the one I remember, but like you, I can't find it again now.
Regardless, Juncker gets no say as to if there will be an extension, that's up to the members.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Grim Lock » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 14:21

In any case i hope they don't give it or preferably don't need to give it, this nonsense needs to be over with.
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Re: Brexit

Post by CBJ » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 15:00

I don't disagree with you that we need an end to the uncertainty, but please bear in mind that for some of us the way in which the uncertainty is resolved is really quite important for our future. And please don't fall back on blaming us for getting ourselves into this situation, because those of us who voted against all this nonsense and are as infuriated by the damage it's causing, and will continue to cause, as you are.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Grim Lock » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 15:09

Don't get me wrong, i sympathise very much with whoever did not want this to happen and voted against it, but personally i never was too fond of Britain's political behavior within the EU, so as bad as i feel for the people who'd like to stay in, the decision to go has seemingly been made without the possibility of it getting reversed. That said, it's now not about blame for me,, it's about getting it over with, as you said, if you feel frustrated because you didn't get the vote to go the right way, please also consider those in Europe who didn't ask for all this BS in the first place.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Bishop149 » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 15:11

I suspect legal Twitter is subjecting this bloody thing (a nearly 600 page long document) to FAR more scrutiny than those who will be voting on it tomorrow.
Take the following for example.
ARTICLE 166 - Decisions and recommendations
1. The Joint Committee shall, for the purposes of this Agreement, have the power to adopt
decisions in respect of all matters for which this Agreement so provides and to make appropriate
recommendations to the Union and the United Kingdom.
2. The decisions adopted by the Joint Committee shall be binding on the Union and the United
Kingdom, and the Union and the United Kingdom shall implement those decisions. They shall have
the same legal effect as this Agreement.
3. The Joint Committee shall adopt its decisions and make its recommendations by mutual
consent.
Rule 10 - Publicity and Confidentiality
1. Unless otherwise decided by the co-chairs, the meetings of the Joint Committee shall be
confidential.
2. Where the Union or the United Kingdom submits information considered as confidential or
protected from disclosure under its laws and regulations to the Joint Committee or any
specialised committee, the other party shall treat that information received as confidential.
3. Without prejudice to paragraph 2, the Union and the United Kingdom may each decide
individually on whether to publish, the decisions and recommendations adopted by the Joint
Committee in their respective official publication journals.
So, this outlines that there shall be a body responsible for facilitating and administering this agreement (composed of members from both the EU and UK) whose decisions are to:
a) Carry the full weight of both UK and EU law.
b) Be confidential by default.
c) Not even subject to even basic scrutiny by either elected government.
I can not find anything in there about how this body is to be appointed.

It is essentially the most fevered conspiracy theory of the most fervent Brexiteer made manifest.
What the actual. . . .


Edit: Also quite a bit of evidence emerging that this deal is just a ploy to deliver no deal by the back door anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... itics-live
- Pass this deal.
- Benn act circumvented.
- Sit on hands for 2 years / actively sabotage the next phase.
- No deal by default again.
This seems like a plan contingent on winning a GE at some point which is by no means certain, but I guess would be at least a little more likely if this deal does pass.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Observe » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 17:25

I wonder how Brexit will affect trade between Britain and non-EU nations?

Case in point is the collapse in UK-New Zealand trade when Britain joined the EU. In 1960 Britain received over fifty percent of New Zealand exports; by 2007 it had dropped to around five percent. After Brexit, Britain be free to strike trade agreements with other nations independent of the EU. This may not necessarily be a bad thing for non-EU countries.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ketraar » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 19:25

They were always able to do trade deals with nations outside EU. Not sure why this is a notion that keeps popping up.

Chances are that deals from one nation goes down or up depending more on money than anything else. In fact I know of non-EU countries that use strong relations of EU nations as a starting point to get into the whole EU market, cases of Angola or Brasil for example.

If the UK has no deal than maybe prices go up enough to make non-EU countries "competitive" in some sort of negative benefit, but if the deal is done there wont be much difference especially wrt to trade anyway (which is the whole point of the deal to begin with).

As some have pointed out, the UK is likely to end up in pretty much the same spot as before (slight generalization) but without the ability to influence EU policy directly.

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Re: Brexit

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 20:49

Ketraar wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 19:25
They were always able to do trade deals with nations outside EU. Not sure why this is a notion that keeps popping up.
Eh? If you're a member of the EU then trade becomes the responsibility of the EU as a bloc rather than at the individual member state level.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Grim Lock » Fri, 18. Oct 19, 21:48

RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 20:49
Ketraar wrote:
Fri, 18. Oct 19, 19:25
They were always able to do trade deals with nations outside EU. Not sure why this is a notion that keeps popping up.
Eh? If you're a member of the EU then trade becomes the responsibility of the EU as a bloc rather than at the individual member state level.
Edited, well kindoff lol :oops:

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/policy-making/

Edit2: Also would like to add that you can trade with whomever you want pretty much though, if the EU hasn't made any deals with a specific country WTO rules apply.
Last edited by Grim Lock on Fri, 18. Oct 19, 23:42, edited 1 time in total.
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