Book recomendations

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 31. Oct 18, 04:57

BugMeister wrote:
Tue, 30. Oct 18, 23:05
The Kingdom Of Speech by Tom Wolfe
- brilliant, insightful and often hilarious.. well worth a read.. :lol:
Ah, the Man in the White Hat. :) Love his stuff and he's certainly a worthy author. I'd have to say, though, that he may have stepped out of bounds a little bit on this one, but that's what any worthy author is supposed to do, right? :)

Fiction Recommendations:

I generally steer a bit clear of Christopher Tolkien's spinoffs from Tolkien's notes. I've read several, but nothing in years. I recently picked up "The Children of Hurin" because I just finished reading the Silmarilian twice, for want of something to read, and once again became a fan of Hurin. The book actually turned out to be pretty good. It didn't have any great revelations, but was still worth reading. It is not quite as derivative as I feared it might be, so I may buy some more of his other stuff. (I've already read the Unfinished Tales books, but he's got one on Gondolin that I'm sort of interested in.)

Clen Cook brings us another episode in the manfold tale of "The Black Company," with "Port of Shadows." It's a "good" book. It doesn't suck. :) It's not wonderful or great nor does it stand out as some masterwork fantasy - It is what it is. BUT, and I think it's important to note, "The Black Company" are what they are, in their fictional setting. Cook, IMO, transfers some of that attitude towards how he writes for The Black Company, no matter what he writes about them. It's not quite as "gritty" as some other works, but it does not shirk from controversy and displays the mostly amoral activities of The Black Company as fans would expect. It focuses on Croaker as the Annalist during a period while they're still serving "The Lady," but after the Battle of Charm. (For fans in the know)

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 31. Oct 18, 08:21

Morkonan wrote:
Wed, 31. Oct 18, 04:57
I generally steer a bit clear of Christopher Tolkien's spinoffs from Tolkien's notes. I've read several, but nothing in years. I recently picked up "The Children of Hurin" because I just finished reading the Silmarilian twice, for want of something to read, and once again became a fan of Hurin. The book actually turned out to be pretty good. It didn't have any great revelations, but was still worth reading. It is not quite as derivative as I feared it might be, so I may buy some more of his other stuff. (I've already read the Unfinished Tales books, but he's got one on Gondolin that I'm sort of interested in.)
It's worth noting that the Silmarillion was essentially reconstructed from Tolkien's notes by Christopher after his death. He even mentions in one of the "history of Middle Earth" books that he regrets some of the editorial decisions he made at the time, since he thinks he would have chosen differently with his current knowledge of the legendarium.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Aye Capn » Wed, 31. Oct 18, 21:33

Glen Cook has this amazing ability to show through Croaker's moral lens that when he says some version of, "They had it coming," you know damn well Croaker knows he's lying.

His description of Soulcatcher's tyranny as "The Protector" is so remarkably human you have to imagine Mr. Cook worked for someone like her at some point in his life. We all kind of know or have known someone like that, entitled to and by power.

Croaker going off on Tobo was also epic. "I've spent my whole life watching people like you treat people like me as disposable playthings," or something close to that. I wish I could remember the exact quote. He was so done with Tobo's crap. Raise this kid right or he'll be another Soulcatcher, you can almost hear him thinking it.

The Black Company series is so old I was a kid when I read the story of the Company in the North. It'll feel strange to revisit that era as an adult.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 1. Nov 18, 21:56

pjknibbs wrote:
Wed, 31. Oct 18, 08:21
It's worth noting that the Silmarillion was essentially reconstructed from Tolkien's notes by Christopher after his death. He even mentions in one of the "history of Middle Earth" books that he regrets some of the editorial decisions he made at the time, since he thinks he would have chosen differently with his current knowledge of the legendarium.
He mentions some of that in the "Children of Hurin." But, it's also true that the focus of the Silmarillion is still correct. It wouldn't have been possible, for instance, to add some of the other material to the book, like the Gondolin tales or what's in The Children of Hurin or the various bits in Unfinished Tales, which was originally intended to be it's own "book." So, the Silmarillion stands "as is" and, IMO, it's good the way it is. Though, strictly speaking, Turin and Neinor/Niniel might not have been appropriate in the Silmarillion. But, their tale is mixed up in with the Noldor et al, so it was probably unavoidable.
Aye Capn wrote:
Wed, 31. Oct 18, 21:33
Glen Cook has this amazing ability to show through Croaker's moral lens that when he says some version of, "They had it coming," you know damn well Croaker knows he's lying.
^--- THIS! And, all the other stuff you posted!

When you're reading Cook's "Black Company" you "feel" the moral relativism that he develops with this band of mercenaries. No matter who the "Annalist" is, you can see that there are two sets of rules: One for the members of The Black Company and who the F cares about anyone else?

And, Cook doesn't point this out for readers... No, nothing so simple. Cook relies on the reader being drawn in by the narrator to see through their eyes, adopt their view, and realize that in order to make sense of some of what is written, the reader must understand that The Black Company does not operate under the same ethical or moral codes that one uses when going to the grocery store. The Narrator's are not "Unreliable Narrators." They are moral relativists and that's part-and-parcel to what he's creating. He's not making any moral or social statements, either - He's simply telling a tale at the Company/Platoon level of a band of mercenaries.

I love this series. It's definitely in the top three of my favorites, perhaps even my most favorite due to how its written. People that don't like it often point out things that other stories with other writers would have included in it.

"It's a fantasy story about a bunch of guys fighting stuff and so why isn't there a big battle scene with somebody writing about how swords were being swung by warriors with mighty thews?"

That's NOT what the series is about, even though The Black Company is, deservedly and undoubtedly, the most feared Mercenary Company in the land. :)

Yes, you're absolutely right - The reader absolutely knows, or should, what's going on in a character's head and what they're basing decisions on, even though, or actually because of, Cook not plainly writing it in.

There was one passage towards the end of the series (So far! There is supposed to be one very last book that takes place at the "end" of the Black Company series.) where the Black Company was preparing for a big battle. There was quite a bit of buildup. And then, when another writer writing a different sort of story would have embellished a big battle sequence into the story, the "climax" was something like "Yeah, so there was this big battle an' stuff and we won."

At first, I was taken aback and felt let down. Then, seconds later, I cheered. :) I realized that a narrator who's a merc in a mercenary company isn't going to sit there and "bore" some anonymous reader with the stuff that they do every day, which is killing people and breaking stuff. They're going to get right to the point, cover the big highlights, and then get to the stuff that is interesting to them. It was a brilliant decision and if he had written out some long battle sequence, at that point, it would have been the wrong decision.

Yeah, so I love me some Black Company!

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Aye Capn » Fri, 2. Nov 18, 02:04

The best of all "They Had It Coming" moments was when the Company set the flying poles so that if their enemies triggered the self-destruct the poles would blow up the Shadowgate.

When this inevitably happens it unleashes hell on their enemies' world, killing off half the population and reducing the wizard population -- the only people who could fight off the Shadows -- to I think three "Royal Families" who become obsessed with finding good wizard genes and having lots of children to rebuild their decimated populations. So much for your Wizard Kingdom.

Croaker's attitude is, "Their fault for destroying the Shadowgates." Of course they had it coming. They crossed the Company.

The way they twist the pacifists' peaceful, self-sacrificing protests of Soulcatcher's cruel reign into dire warnings -- "The Black Company Lives. Beware!" -- had me laughing as well. It's this flavor of evil bastardry that makes us love the Company.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Bishop149 » Fri, 2. Nov 18, 13:16

Less of a book, more of an author.

Suzanne Palmer.

She hasn't yet written a novel (first one in the works) but I absolutely LOVED two short stories from her (both received via Clarkesworld magazine), "The Secret Life of Bots" and "33% Joe". The former won the Hugo award for "Best Novelette" this year so it seems that the critics also loved it. Both have a similar theme, that of a community of sentient machines in service to humans who have an entire society of their own of which humans are almost entirely unaware, or simply pay little attention too providing the machines work as they should.
I would highly commend them to you.

I also recently listened to another short story that will stay with me for a while: "The Foodie Federation's Dinosaur Farm" which I hope you'll agree is worth checking out for its title alone.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 2. Nov 18, 18:58

Aye Capn wrote:
Fri, 2. Nov 18, 02:04
..Croaker's attitude is, "Their fault for destroying the Shadowgates." Of course they had it coming. They crossed the Company.
That's the stuff I love - Everything is about "The Black Company" and nothing else matters. It's a sentiment that has a lot of military veterans become fans of the series. They all understand the bonds that Cook is using, not directly writing about, to develop the character behind what it means to be one of The Black Company.
The way they twist the pacifists' peaceful, self-sacrificing protests of Soulcatcher's cruel reign into dire warnings -- "The Black Company Lives. Beware!" -- had me laughing as well. It's this flavor of evil bastardry that makes us love the Company.
One thing I love about that part in the books - There wasn't any question revolving around what they were going to do even though they were decimated and scattered to the winds. No question whether or not the ones that were left would just roll over and become "civilians." That was not an option.

ie: "They've got us surrounded - the poor bastards."

Goblin and One-Eye, cookin' up shennanigans, cackling gleefully as their brethren look on with concern... and not a little bit of excited anticipation.

There is one thing that is required for someone to really like the series - They have to understand that it's about the bond and the shared "brotherhood" among the members of The Black Company and "The Company" as something living that can't be killed, even though its members die. For many of the members of the company, all they have is to die for The Black Company and have their names remember in the Annals. That's it. That's what so many of The Black Company fight for. It shows how they have only been able to find a meaning for themselves as a member of the Company, no matter what they were before they joined. And, those who join later? In the books, we see them gain the same status as any other member. They're not "the f'ing new guy." They're a brother in arms and the Company treats them the same. In the end, their name will be alongside their brother's in the Annals.
Bishop149 wrote:...Suzanne Palmer...Clarkesworld magazine..
I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for both! Am pondering a subscription, but would like both e-pub and hardcopy I think. If I was a Patreon or Paypal or any sort of online third-party group, things like this would not cause me as much hesitation. I should probably do both.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 5. Nov 18, 22:33

Re-reading this, now: The Red Knight - Miles Cameron in the "Traitor's Son Cycle."

It's a good series and a lot of fun, with something in it for everyone. (Poetry ain't my forte'. So to write it, I ain't the one...) In tone, it's pretty grim/dark, eventually moving from mystery, hack-n-slash, to high-sorcery an' stuff. There's some "they're not all bad, just somewhat misunderstood" things in there, too. And, there's a potential "Evil Overlord Megalomaniac Sorcerer" to deal with as well as an "Ultimate Evil Thing" too. Mercenaries with relative morality, battles, religion, sorcery, blood and guts... What more could one ask for? I'm re-reading it by choice, not necessity. :) As my memories get refreshed, the first book is pretty "action packed" after the customary lead-in for all the characters. It also uses a great opening "hook" to get the reader interested in "what happens next." Nicely done by Cameron. If you're a fantasy and swords&sorcery fan, you'll like it.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Bishop149 » Tue, 6. Nov 18, 10:33

Morkonan wrote:
Fri, 2. Nov 18, 18:58
I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for both! Am pondering a subscription, but would like both e-pub and hardcopy I think. If I was a Patreon or Paypal or any sort of online third-party group, things like this would not cause me as much hesitation. I should probably do both.
I support Clarkesworld via Patreon (and primarily consume the podcast, Kate Baker's narration is top notch) but I probably wouldn't recommend it as a support platform. A while back they announced they'd be making sweeping changes to how the money was distributed, this caused one hell of a fuss and the plans were eventually dropped but not before large numbers of subscribers quit the platform in protest . . . . . which obviously directly impacted the income of the creators to the point they started to struggle financially.
Partly as a response to this Clarkesworld founded their own support platform:
https://clarkesworldcitizens.com/

I'd recommend going this way.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Aye Capn » Thu, 8. Nov 18, 00:23

@Morkonan:
There is no fight scene in The Black Company as important as knowing that One-Eye cheats at cards.

This is according to the author the art that best captures the spirit of The Company, complete with playing cards, thousand-yard-stares, and dark tower of sketchy employer in the background.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 8. Nov 18, 21:01

Aye Capn wrote:
Thu, 8. Nov 18, 00:23
@Morkonan:
There is no fight scene in The Black Company as important as knowing that One-Eye cheats at cards.
In the latest installment, Croaker talks about it in one scene. Paraphrased - "Goblin cheats, too. But he does it just to see if he can. He wouldn't do it maliciously, for real sums of money. One-Eye, though...."

:)
This is according to the author the art that best captures the spirit of The Company, complete with playing cards, thousand-yard-stares, and dark tower of sketchy employer in the background...
Very nice!

The original cover-art for the series print in the US wasn't too bad, but it didn't capture the spirit like that one. The omnibus editions had some really nice cover art, but they were all focused on "Epic Battle Scenes" for the most part. Most books focus on covers that "draw the eye," usually with a piece of art from a pivotal action-scene in the book. Though, even "relevance" can be completely ignored for "shelf presentation."

Note: In "The Red Knight" I posted about, above, the mercenary company's members are treated much the same by the author as Cook treats the members of the Black Company. Each has their own personality, their own acquired nickname, a usually "shady character on the fringes of the law backstory" and much the same in the way of peculiar habits and the like. The similarities are too close to be accidental, I'm sure. :)

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 9. Nov 18, 02:19

Morkonan wrote:
Thu, 8. Nov 18, 21:01
In the latest installment
There are new / recent Black Company books?
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Aye Capn » Fri, 9. Nov 18, 03:58

@Morkonan: Glen Cook invented the "Dark Fantasy" genre. Without Cook there's no Game of Thrones.

"Make people real people and now how you imagine them to be," was his motto (or close to it).

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 9. Nov 18, 22:35

[/quote]
RegisterMe wrote:
Fri, 9. Nov 18, 02:19
Morkonan wrote:
Thu, 8. Nov 18, 21:01
In the latest installment
There are new / recent Black Company books?
Absolutely! "The Port of Shadows" just released this September. It's counted as a "spin-off" in terms of "series" but it's all about The Black Company and stars Croaker in his old role as Annalist during a period they were serving "The Lady" after the Battle of Charm.
Aye Capn wrote:
Fri, 9. Nov 18, 03:58
@Morkonan: Glen Cook invented the "Dark Fantasy" genre. Without Cook there's no Game of Thrones.

"Make people real people and now how you imagine them to be," was his motto (or close to it).
That's a bold statement. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasy

HOWEVER, Cook has done something that has won him wide acclaim, nonetheless! He successfully translated the flavor of common "war stories" to fantasy. I don't mean "battle stories," but the sort of stories told or written by veterans of the Korean or Vietnam wars or a sort of "All's Quiet on the Western Front" or "Catch 22" sorts of stories, where the real soldiers are portrayed as they would be seen through the eyes of their comrades, not as set pieces on some battlefield. He's got a large fanbase of military veterans who claim "he got it right" in how he portrays the spirit and life of the members of a company of soldiers. In much the same way as Weber did with translating the spirit of "The Navy" into his Honor Harrington books, Cook successfully translated the spirit of "A Band of Brothers" into his Black Company books. AND, he did it without resorting to "military fiction" tactics, like those used in many "military science-fiction" books.

An ode to a masterpiece is warranted, here: Cook's "Ten Who Were Taken" and how he builds a character around a "nickname" hearkens back to the ancient edifice of classic Fantasy "The Gormenghast Trilogy" by Peake. It's strongly "Dickensonian Fantasy" with deep, dark, places and some wonderful characters in it. I "see" some correlations there with the Ten Who Were Taken. It might just be coincidental, since Cook's subject lends itself directly towards creating memorable "individuals" and naming them in a memorable way seems appropriate.

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by BugMeister » Mon, 31. Dec 18, 10:59

- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Re: Book recomendations

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 31. Dec 18, 12:24

BugMeister wrote:
Mon, 31. Dec 18, 10:59
some good choices here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQeVOyR_cP0
Interesting. There are some good titles on there, but he also mentioned Lev Grossman's "Magicians" series, which sucks. It's a vacuum. It sucks so much it actually shrinks in on itself after awhile, causing pages to be lost. But, you won't care, since it already has too many pages you don't want to read, anyway. Like... all of them. It's a mountain of suckitude in multiple volumes. If you have a cat and a paper-shredder, you'll appreciate this series's absorption strength.

At least he only gave it an "Honorable Mention." Maybe because it has "Magicians" in the title and it's also a fantasy story? Which kinda matches if you think about it. So, 5/7 for an appropriate genre title might have pushed it into his Honorable Mention category. And, yes, as he says, all the characters are a-holes. (And, written badly, which is worse.)

There's also a television series on SyFy. It's like 90210, but without the intellectual depth. It's probably their attempt at a "What if the Kardashians were magicians" show. Less badadonkadonk, more jigglywigglies. With magic.

"Why are you taking so long to make my soy latte(pic)"? (Be careful, the angsty condescending ignorant and oversexed adolescents may dislike you on Facebook if you don't like their Weezer playlist.)

It's like Harry Potter meets the Kardashians meets 90210 meets a less interesting Buffy the Vampire Slayer and... something. And, no, I didn't watch much of it so my opinion of it is formed entirely from the little bit I saw, commercials, and then pics like that one above. :)

PS - I just felt like some creative criticism meant to elicit a chuckle or two. But, I really thought "The Magicians" was terrible. It's a straight rip-off of Harry Potter. Straight. It's like he just said "@@$$% it, I'm tired of being an editor and publisher! I'll write something really awesome, like that one series of books that one chick in the UK wrote. But, I'll make it betterer!" and then forget to make it not suck. *Added: But, seriously - Anyone can like anything. I don't care! I like people liking books, so there's no problem if anyone hates me dissing on "The Magicians" if it's their favorite series! No problem at all - You do you. There's obviously something in there the publishers thought would sell and attract enough fans to push out a series for. And, considering it spawned a TV series, some people must love the books. I just don't know why.

PPS - Copied the list, so I'll take a look at the recommendations. I need something new, since I've already caught up on every series I was reading with the exception of one, which I might have to order.

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