Chinese lander heading for far side of Moon

[Morkonan]

Seems like they are taking the New Silk Road to the next level Very exiting news!

It's a pretty big deal and is having a huge impact on the regions its passing through. BUT, there's some caveats. For one, there's some disruption going on in far-flung regions, with people barely out of their yurts dealing with rapid-transit and modern economies. Then, there's the absolute fact that China is getting into some questionable economic areas in establishing a practical "New Deal" economy. This is an example of that, but maybe one of the more productive ones if they can make it work quickly enough. There have been some disturbing stories that hint at desperation, in my opinion. Empty construction, developments in remote locations that just sit there, waiting for people that didn't show up, etc.. Infrastructure is great, but you have to get a return from it soon enough that the development costs don't become an increased burden the economy can't sustain. (ie: You don't build a bridge-to-nowhere when you desperately need a real, working, profitable bridge...)

And, this isn't quite the topic for the thread, so I'd imagine it may get split.

For OT Consideration: SciAm: With First-Ever Landing on Moon's Far Side, China Enters Luna Incognita - An interesting short article on some of the geopolitical ramifications of the "Moon Race." For instance, NASA would love to get China to put some laser reflectors on their landers, but they can't even ask since it requires a Congressional vote...

[felter]

Just discovered a video on the landing of the landing and it's from none other than Mr Scott Manley . A very good video and quality.

[Morkonan]

Just discovered a video on the landing of the landing and it's from none other than Mr Scott Manley . A very good video and quality.

Thanks for that! Great vid!

[Bishop149]

Very cool

A Seed Has Sprouted on the Moon for the First Time [Update: It Died]

I did not know the lander contined such an experiment although the following quotes raise some questions

A built-in heat system facilitates growth and prevents the biological material from freezing

Sunday January 13, the Chang’e 4 probe entered into hibernation mode as the lunar night set in. With temperatures as low as minus 170 degrees centigrade, life in the canister “would not survive the lunar night,” according to Xie. The death of the plant, therefore, was not completely unexpected.

So the biosphere is heated but this is presumably powered by solar power, and the available battery power is presumably insufficient to run this system through the lunar night.
This somewhat begs the questions:
a) What was the point?
b) Did they land it at Lunar dawn, to give the experiment as much time as possible (~ 2 weeks)? . . . . . I guess its possible they did, I haven't been keeping track of the mission time.

[Morkonan]

...a) What was the point?...

So they can say "First."

There's some legit reasons, I suppose, but I don't think there's anything much there that couldn't have been accomplished benchtop. When I first saw the headline, I thought they had used lunar soil and almost pooped myself... Unfortunately, that's not the case. (Not that I'm lamenting the fact that I didn't poop myself. )

Sidetrack - PLOS: Mars soil may be better for crop growth. At least Mars has a fairly active atmosphere, even if it is kinda thin. Moon regolith = nasty Mixed with poop/water/additional organics/nutrients/other though, it might serve OK as filler or something.

Anyway, I see little in the benefit other than a PR pic of a cotton-seed sprouting. But, I'm no plant guy, so I'm probably missing something here.

More info: SDC: Plants died Interestingly enough, there are other things in that experiment, including fruit-flies! No news, there, but I'd assume they're dead too. They should have maybe included some arctic frog tadpoles or something?

[Usenko]

The whole thing reminds me a little of the FAST telescope - the urge to make something bigger and more powerful (or firster in this case! ) but without any real substance (in that the FAST telescope, big though it is, is not as practically useful for science as a large array of mobile telescopes).

[Morkonan]

Looked up some stuff on FAST. Wow... Uh, impressive, but not that effective for all its size and likely expense. And, it so far out in the middle of nowhere that nobody seems to want to run the thing. /cringe

"Hey! Anyone want to be the director of this awesome new big dish radio telescope that is really awesome and not quite as sensitive as Arecibo, but it's still pretty cool? It's awesome big, too!"

"Well, I might be interested. So, where is it? Can I go take a look at it?"

"Sure!"

"Uh... Who's that?"

"Oh, that's Chonesh, a Mongolian Mountain Guide, and this is his donkey Mr. Bonaduce Airhumper. They'll be your guides to the telescope!"

"I- I gotta go. I gotta go buy a dog to wash."

"But, it's big! Really big! And it's awesome!"

* In all fairness, there are telescopes located in all sorts of remote locations. But, for some reason, this one is so remote they seem to have issues getting people to work there. Voluntarily, that is. I wouldn't think they'd force people to do that, but it is China, after all, and this is a matter of National Pride.

[Usenko]

* In all fairness, there are telescopes located in all sorts of remote locations. But, for some reason, this one is so remote they seem to have issues getting people to work there. Voluntarily, that is. I wouldn't think they'd force people to do that, but it is China, after all, and this is a matter of National Pride.

This isn't really the biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that it was an attempt to outdo the Aricebo telescope in Puerto Rico. All good so far, except since that telescope was built, developments in computer networking have made it advantageous to network a bunch of smaller antennae together (in fact one of the people at the NASA Deep Space Tracking Centre near Canberra told me that for a lot of jobs networked steerable antennae are FAR BETTER than a similarly-sized large antenna - you can count the distance between them as equivalent to a big dish that size). In fact the funding for Aricebo has been chancy for this reason.

It's kind of like the Chinese trying to get prestige by building the world's most efficient carburettor. . . .

[Morkonan]

...It's kind of like the Chinese trying to get prestige by building the world's most efficient carburettor. . . .

"But, it's YUUUUGE! So big, much science!"

It's still "useful." It's just a bit wasteful, I guess. But, there is a "positive" in projects like that - They encourage related STEM fields and industries and help refine hi-tech manufacturing and the like.

The Chinese build a bunch of railroads. They can build the heck out of railroads! It doesn't mean that the rails won't be made of substandard materials or that the wheels won't crack when stressed or that the railbeds will be improperly laid... But, they can build the heck out of railroads!

I am really happy that their lander actually made it, though. It appears to be working, doing its job, etc. For now, it's not just another piece of litter that a lot of people worked hard to get there.

[pjknibbs]

The biggest problem is that it was an attempt to outdo the Aricebo telescope in Puerto Rico.

Couldn't you do that just by making your telescope steerable? Arecibo is fairly limited in what directions it can point!

[Morkonan]

The biggest problem is that it was an attempt to outdo the Aricebo telescope in Puerto Rico.

Couldn't you do that just by making your telescope steerable? Arecibo is fairly limited in what directions it can point!

It's got a huge field of view, can be "steered" a little bit (the receiver can be moved), and is mounted on the largest gimbal on the Earth - The Earth.

[Usenko]

This might go in this thread . . .

[Bishop149]

This might go in this thread . . .

First reaction. . . seems a little premature.

I'm far from an expert but I though that (with current technology) microwave transmission of power from space was rather inefficient. Isn't any efficiency gain from putting the panels in space merely going to be offset again by transmission losses. As / when the technology improves it will just be one long ongoing upgrade job.
Also, over twice the mass of the ISS in an orbit over 80 times higher. . . . . yeah good luck getting all that up there.

[Usenko]

I'm afraid I'm with you, Bishop. When I first saw the article, my immediate question was "Which of the technical problems have they solved?"

The answer being "None of them. . . ."

[Mightysword]

As always, any kind of technological breakthrough from China always need to be taken in measured expectation. They're fairly good at taking what already there and scale it up, but very rare they offer anything original on their own. I remember a few years ago there were quite a few buzz about new urban public transportation models, including an overhead bus system running parallel on top of the street. Last year it turns out all we saw were some hyped up scam and fraud. I'll take the news from South Korea and Japan then I would China. With them, I'll believe it when I see something concrete.

[Morkonan]

I'm afraid I'm with you, Bishop. When I first saw the article, my immediate question was "Which of the technical problems have they solved?"

The answer being "None of them. . . ."

^--- This.

This "announcement" is complete horsecrap... First of all, the "microwave solution" to power transmission has already been studied. It can't be done. Not with microwaves, it can't, using any form of technology currently known to mankind. So, yeah, that's right out as one may as well try to get heat from a candle to a cold cup of coffee by locking that candle in a refrigerator.

And, a LAZOR? Look... I know a laser and a microwave transmitter aren't the same thing. But, they're the same thing... just different. The atmospheric effects on a laser beam are WELL FRIGGIN' KNOWN. They are used in every darn half-decent observatory to calculate atmospheric effects so that the telescope can be adjusted. They are used to range distance to the Moon. Idiots use them to blind commercial pilots... The uses and capabilities are known variables up to the point where someone gets stoopid and say's "It's gonna be so stronk it can transmit huge amounts of collected energy."

That's not power-transmission.

That's a weapon.

The technical hurdles of mounting a laser in space capable of transmitting enough power to render usable energy "on the ground" are the same technical problems of creating space-based laser weapons platforms... And, we know that. China knows we know that. Everybody who's thinking about putting any sort of weapon's delivery system in space without having to pay for and hide the act of hauling up projectiles knows that.

All this talk of "collecting energy and beaming it down to Earth" is B.S. It'd be much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient to just cover a suitable area of land at the equator with extremely efficient solar panels and a closed steam system. Or, maybe, just build some of the great nuclear reactor systems that are out there to solve any "energy" problem.

It's friggin' B.S. It's dumb. It's propaganda that isn't intent on solving any dumbcrap "energy" issue, but is specifically designed to threaten "We're gonna build a space-based weapons platform and call it "clean energy," lol." Prepare for 100 bajigawatts of "clean energy to the face, lol."

:/

Added: This crap gets me mad... Seriously. This is about implying that China is threatening to violate the Space Treaty by cloaking a laser-based weapons platform in space by calling it an "energy transmitter." It won't happen, of course. But, it's the implied threat that is what they are trying to communicate. It's just a nudge, designed to inflame tensions. IF they actually started trying to do this? If they launched systems into orbit that were specifically designed to support this effort? It'd be grounds for a tactical strike to destroy such systems. This is much, much, more than what the US "Star Wars" program was designed for. This proposed "energy transmission system" is designed to kill people and break things on the ground anywhere on Earth from the relative (in today's terms) safety of space.

They're talking about building the Death Star.