Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

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Bishop149
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 3. Apr 19, 15:30

pjknibbs wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 12:31
I don't give half a withered poop about the theme tune, the reason I don't like Enterprise is because it's a massive wasted opportunity, IMHO. Everything was just too similar to the original series, despite supposedly being a century before it--so instead of shields, which are a percentage-based thing that blocks damage, we have "polarised hull plating", which is a percentage-based thing that block damage. The ship originally left dock with practically no weapons, but they had "phase cannons" (aka phasers) before the end of the first season, and "photonic torpedoes" (aka photon torpedoes) at the beginning of season 3. It just struck me as the laziest of lazy writing--everything works exactly as it does in the later series, we'll just call things by different names and hope nobody notices!
Late response!

I dunno, you raise a valid point in regard to technology but I don't think it changes the fact that Enterprise did have a distinctly different feel to all other Star Trek series that is appropriate to the setting and mostly has little to do with the specific tech jargon employed.

Most notably in the sense of threat, most of Star Trek can be characterised as: Cruising round the galaxy in my invincible death machine (but peaceful explorers!), rarely encountering any serious external threat unless it's being presented by what amounts to a God. Even the Borg who were initially introduced as a means of balancing this were a serious threat for about as far as Wolf 359 and little further. Voyager was the worst offender (as is often the case), when first encountered a single cube or even sphere was suitably scary . . . . a season later and they're going toe to toe with a Tactical Cube for half an episode whilst nicking it's warp drive.

By way of contrast every single hostile encounter in Enterprise feels as though they could get their ass kicked, and frequently they do. I can think of multiple episodes of the top of my head where the win condition is just straight up "RUN AWAY!", and / or begging for help from more advanced species.
I like the fact that in the first series they're all starry eyed and "Weapons? We won't need those much will we? Explorers!!" and by the beginning of the second they're "WE NEED GUNS!! UPGRADE THE DAMN WEAPONS!! NOW!!! . . . . ACTUALLY WE CAN'T WAIT WE'LL DO IT OUR-BLOODY-SELVES"
The whole Xindi mission (although I do think this was the point it went downhill) was approached very much with a sense of "This is probably a suicide mission".

That's the biggest single "feel" difference but there are many more:
- Everyone is terrified of the transporter (fair. . . ) and whilst they show some signs of starting to get used to the idea it never become routine.
- Nationality is a real and impactful thing . . . . more than just an amusing association between Picard and wine.
- Racism is VERY overt and pretty much everywhere pre-Federation, explored most in regard to the Vulcans.
- The culture of non-human crew members (mostly the Vulcans but to a lesser extent the Denobulans, sadly as I'd have loved more on them) are explored in a depth that is matched only by DS9 (which I agree is the best Trek).
- The military is still a distinct thing from Starfleet, and pure militaristic thinking is unashamedly on show.

My personal biggest single criticism of Enterprise is the treatment of T'Pol . . . . there really is no excuse for how often she's half naked, nor for the fact she seems to be allergic to wearing a bra. . . . . especially as it's clearly Hoshi who's "the sexy one". :roll:
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Wed, 3. Apr 19, 16:52

If you have read any Star Trek books ( especially the adaptation of the first Star Trek movie) it states it states that most Vulcans find the smell of humans quite revolting.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 3. Apr 19, 21:10

You don't need to read the books to know that, T'Pol in the series was quite up front (if you'll pardon the pun) about finding humans very smelly indeed. Oh, and there was an episode where Hoshi ended up naked from the waist up (although, this being a US prime-time show, you didn't actually see anything much).

[EDIT] Know I said I probably wasn't going to be following Discovery into season 3? I'm thinking I'll bring that timetable up. I've watched most of this season during lunch breaks at work. Been off work this week (just at home, not going anywhere) and I've found I really don't have any desire to watch the next episode--I have better things to be doing in my free time!

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 09:41

The most recent episode was . . . complicated. Some of the most egregious treknobabble I've ever heard, yet . . one is prepared to forgive a lot for THAT Captain Pike scene. :)
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 10:49

This last episode is again in line with the same inconsistent and shallow writing. They keep trying to add meaning to the ships characters, but its written like it was aliens trying to tell a human story. The concept of "show dont tell" is lost on any of them. So we get scenes with disconnected dialog that EXPLAINS us how the characters feel and we just need to (literally) take their word for it. Putting a few people on a table and "play" a stupid game was supposed to mean something I have missed. Are we supposed to know who these characters are?

I'm rambling again and its getting on my nerves, possibly on yours too, so I'll just leave it at this last thing put into spoiler tags just in case some one cares.
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So Control has these superduper nanites that can emulate a body to perfection by just moving a "a few" nanites around, also have super strengths but fights like a person without taking advantage of its shape shifting ability when its needed? I call bull on that "I'm trying to infect you with nanites but I need to do it with a syringe so we can have a struggle, but then for some reason its a moot point and I'll just try and invade you "manually" because... plot reasons".
This is why this show sucks, its Dark Matter season 3 level of atrocious
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 12:11

so we have time travel and nanites what are the odds that they will create the borg
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 12:41

Now that you mention it, really looks like it. :shock:

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 17:40

Just as I thought it may have been getting better. :roll:

What a load of nonsense. The Pike bit was good but contrived and you knew what it was going to be as soon as a "price" was mentioned. The complete "time crystal" thing was unbelievable.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 24. Apr 19, 00:32

So just watched the last episode of season 2 and I guess no one really cares about anything and now season 3 will be set in a completely different setting, making 2 seasons pointless? By the end as they pan over the crew of the Enterprise it felt like they were promoting a Enterprise Season instead of Discovery? Was a bit confused, hopeful and sad at the same time.
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Also anyone noticed how pointless the whole "lets go to the future" ended up to be since control was killed before they went? Also if they went to the future 950 years (for whatever reason) and control did not kill all living stuff, will they not be in a populated universe with still some AI around and still the data on the discovery? They just arrive in the Beta quadrant with 1000 year old tech and hope to survive?

Also also, does the time suit define where you can jump? Why would it not allow to set any date and only specific ones in a specific order, its a freaking time suit, even the DeLorian could set the time you wanted to go.
The more I think about the plot the more frustrated I get... cant wait for The Expanse S4 to release...

MFG

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PS.: In the previous Episode "we" tried to blow up Discovery to get rid of the data and the data magically made Discovery impenetrable due to survival instincts of the data, but then in this episode somehow the data is ok to be killed off?
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by berth » Wed, 24. Apr 19, 23:32

Yeeaahh, looking for something positive to say...it was very colourful?

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 26. Apr 19, 01:56

This might be enjoyed by some of the fans, here: Nickelodeon and CBS TV Studios team up for animated 'Star Trek' series
The show is billed as a chance to introduce the "Star Trek" universe to a new generation of viewers.
The CG-animated series "follows a group of lawless teens who discover a derelict Starfleet ship and use it to search for adventure, meaning and salvation," a news release states.
Enjoy!

(I guess it's kind of like using "Teen Titans" to broaden a DC Comics audience? Or, at least "like" some of the other "comic book franchise-inspired" series that appeal to younger audiences? (Star Wars "Rebels" or whatever, etc. "Batman" series thing with Hammil's Joker voicework and the like.)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 1. May 19, 13:44

berth wrote:
Wed, 24. Apr 19, 23:32
Yeeaahh, looking for something positive to say...it was very colourful?
I think Discovery is trying to be Dr Who . . . . a time travel show that somehow manages to get away with: "Ok that's really cool and rather pretty but it makes no damn sense and isn't even internally consistent from 5 minutes ago" being one of its central pillars.

I'm curious what the hell Series 3 is going to be. . . . at one point I was thinking "Huh, the writers have realise they have a Micheal Burnham problem and are writing her out". . . . just as from Season 1 -> Season 2 they seemed to realise they had a "No one is invested in our characters because we've given them no reason to be" problem and clumsily tried to fix it.

I have one good thing!
I watched the finale with a friend who during the recap bit at the beginning said "Ooooo they're including stuff from the shorts!", to which my response was "The shorts?"
It turns out that buried in the "Trailers and more" section of the show listing on Netflix are 4 little short stories (about 15-20 mins each).
I watched the first two (because I was told those are the ones somewhat relevant to the finale) and they were pretty damn good, especially the second one. FAR better than most of the main series.
Its also a bloody brilliant idea, vignettes set in the Star Trek universe. . . . someone commission a whole series of these immediately and why the hell hasn't it been done already.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Wed, 1. May 19, 15:27

Wow, just wow... When I thought that STD could not be more schizophrenic, here we get examples on how to do Star Trek right from the same show that fails at it. :roll:

Thanks for the pointer I'm glad I watched these now and sad at the same time on knowing of more missed potential.

As for what the Season 3 will be, I think it will be Voyager style in the sense of they will be lost in space, but instead of being in the Delta quadrant, they will just be as far away from cannon as they possibly can, which they should have been from the start.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by berth » Wed, 1. May 19, 23:14

Bishop149 wrote:
Wed, 1. May 19, 13:44
...I watched the finale with a friend who during the recap bit at the beginning said "Ooooo they're including stuff from the shorts!", to which my response was "The shorts?"
It turns out that buried in the "Trailers and more" section of the show listing on Netflix are 4 little short stories (about 15-20 mins each).
I watched the first two (because I was told those are the ones somewhat relevant to the finale) and they were pretty damn good, especially the second one. FAR better than most of the main series.
Its also a bloody brilliant idea, vignettes set in the Star Trek universe. . . . someone commission a whole series of these immediately and why the hell hasn't it been done already.
Thanks for this. I was thinking I'd dozed off at some point when Tilly's old chum Po turned up in the "previously" bit!

I've also only watched the first two so far. Not sure of the relevance of the second one to the main plot but it was enjoyable nonetheless.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 2. May 19, 12:29

berth wrote:
Wed, 1. May 19, 23:14
I've also only watched the first two so far. Not sure of the relevance of the second one to the main plot but it was enjoyable nonetheless.
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It's Discovery (made clear by the big logo in the hanger bay), seemingly inhabited by an AI that has been drifting alone for 1000 years . . . . the other character is seemingly human but pretty obviously not from a society rooted in the Federation.

We learn in the finale (and build up) that the sphere data has apparently become integral to Discovery and is at least self aware enough to defend itself against a variety of attacks. The genesis of that AI?
Discovery then jumps 900 years into the future. . . . supposedly, but where does it actually end up in time? We've established the suit isn't exactly reliable or predicable.
The human society that isn't Federation based . . . . origins in Terralysium? It's in the beta quadrant, and where discovery was supposedly headed?

Some interesting food for thought / speculation, especially in regard to Season 3
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 2. May 19, 13:05

At the end of season 2 we know where Discovery ended up. Its made clear with the last sign and its the same(ish) spot where that "Empty ship" short takes place.
Which is what I said about it being similar to Voyager, as in it taking place in a region/time that does not conflict much with cannon and thus hopefully avoiding the idiotic red-coning. What I'll say is that sadly the most interesting characters wont be there (Pike and Georgiou, with the later already having a spin-off series confirmed).

My hope is that they just start from scratch and lets just take these 2 seasons as warm up and quickly move on to new and better writing.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 2. May 19, 13:19

Ketraar wrote:
Thu, 2. May 19, 13:05
At the end of season 2 we know where Discovery ended up. Its made clear with the last sign and its the same(ish) spot where that "Empty ship" short takes place.
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We know where, but I'd contest that when is still something of an open question, given that that suit only seems to sometimes work as intended. . . and who knows how much subjective time could have past for whoever sent that last signal (probably Micheal)
If it is 900 years in the future as stated then we are completely out of any and all Star Trek canon. 100 years after the return of Voyager but 100 before the bits of Enterprise that dealt with the deep future.
The primary touch point from the latter, the Enterprise J in a battle with the sphere builders is from a timeline we know was prevented.

It certainly could be an utterly fresh start.
Question is are they simply gonna spore drive back to the Federation of that time? Or will they be hanging out in the Beta Quadrant. How does the 1000 years of Discovery alone fit in?
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 2. May 19, 16:49

Bishop149 wrote:
Thu, 2. May 19, 13:19
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If it is 900 years in the future as stated then we are completely out of any and all Star Trek canon. 100 years after the return of Voyager but 100 before the bits of Enterprise that dealt with the deep future.
Um, what?
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Voyager is launched in 2371, only a little over a century after the original Discovery timeline--it certainly doesn't take 700 years to travel back to the Alpha quadrant. Heck, it could have done it in a tenth of that time even without the time and space travel cobblers from the last season. Daniels from Enterprise was from "the 31st century", which would still be 100 years before "900 years after Discovery timeline".

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 2. May 19, 17:20

pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 2. May 19, 16:49
Um, what?
Ooops yep I misread the time line
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Discovery - 2250s
Return of Voyager - 2404

So presumably Dscovery (if it went as planned) would be some point in 3100s which is either after any event we've seen or roughly contemporaneous with the time Daniels was from.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Sun, 19. May 19, 13:19

Star Trek Discovery Season 3 in Question After Netflix Rejects Picard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tCvJ4MsAFQ
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