Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Sat, 30. Mar 19, 19:41

pjknibbs wrote:
Fri, 29. Mar 19, 12:02
I haven't seen the new episode yet, but the last Star Trek series I watched in its entirety was DS9. I found Voyager and Enterprise both disappointing, albeit for different reasons, and I'm seriously considering not bothering with S3 of Discovery when it comes out, unless I read reviews suggesting the showrunners change their direction.
DS9 fans, the ones who really loved the show, tend to not be as enthusiastic about other Star Trek offerings. Just in general, from my own personal, likely flawed, observations. :)

If you had some kind of spice shaker filled up with the "it" that you liked about DS9, what would "it" be? What was the flavor, mechanics, setting or general theme that you really liked about the show that you might wish other similar television shows had?

Note: Just checked to see if I could start watching Discovery and see the old episodes and kind of catch up. After all, I pay about thirty bajillion monies a month for "Cable Television" and it has a bunch of stuff for all the channels including past shows, series, movies, etc, etc... I can watch so many "series" using it.

Except for this one...

"Can I watch CBS's "Star Trek:Discovery" series? All the guys online seem to like it, so I thought mayb-"
"@%^%@%^ YOU YOU @@$%'IN PLEBE! SIGN UP FOR CBS STREAMING NAOW U DEGERNERATE UNDESERVING MINKEY"
"But..."
"@$^% OFF! PAY US AGAIN U DROOLING !$%$%!"

So, yeah... no. :/

ie:Streaming killed the radio star...

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 30. Mar 19, 21:40

Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 30. Mar 19, 19:41
DS9 fans, the ones who really loved the show, tend to not be as enthusiastic about other Star Trek offerings. Just in general, from my own personal, likely flawed, observations. :)
Yes, it's definitely flawed, because I also watched all of TNG. I do think DS9 is the best Trek series, mainly because it had a bit of darkness to it while still being recognisably Trek--in DS9, people had flaws and occasionally made flawed decisions, which made the whole thing a lot more believable. (And the flawed decisions they made weren't generally along the lines of "I'm going to wipe out 20 years of history just so I can change the past and rescue the couple of hundred people aboard my ship" that Janeway did in the last couple of episodes of Voyager).

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 31. Mar 19, 01:24

pjknibbs wrote:
Sat, 30. Mar 19, 21:40
Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 30. Mar 19, 19:41
DS9 fans, the ones who really loved the show, tend to not be as enthusiastic about other Star Trek offerings. Just in general, from my own personal, likely flawed, observations. :)
Yes, it's definitely flawed, because I also watched all of TNG. I do think DS9 is the best Trek series, mainly because it had a bit of darkness to it while still being recognisably Trek--in DS9, people had flaws and occasionally made flawed decisions, which made the whole thing a lot more believable. (And the flawed decisions they made weren't generally along the lines of "I'm going to wipe out 20 years of history just so I can change the past and rescue the couple of hundred people aboard my ship" that Janeway did in the last couple of episodes of Voyager).

So, maybe it was because it felt more "intimate" and was on a smaller "scale" than the others that you found really appealing? For instance, no matter what happens, somehow something someone does on some Star Trek show before or after this is "gonna affect teh universe and kill it all." Meanwhile, back on DS9, there's an intense, personal, intimate, problem going on with one of the characters and a reoccurring protagonist. Except, this time it's for "realz" and somebody might get hurt.

Something like that?

One of the things Voyager suffered from was thrusting a collection of characters together in an intimate, "us against the galaxy" kind of setting where there camera is going to be focused on their face every darn week. Even "Star Trek" had lots of walk-ons, planetary hops, shore-leave, etc. Then, they were expecting not to have work hard to make those characters sympathetic without pandering to the audience. Add in the curse/bonus/complication of Chekotay's Maqi <sp> (who the F spells this crap right on the first go-round) crew who are supposed to be hyper-angsty teens-with-teeth rebelling against their Federation parents... Yeah, a crap show for at least the first Season.

"Let's pit two teams against each other, but they have to work together to get things done in order to survive in a dangerous setting!"
"Oh, I heard of that show. "Survivor," right?"
"No, no, no, this is a sci-fi show."
"AH! "Lost," then."
"No, dangit! Nobody important can die since we have "contracts" and stuff."
"Then... wtf is it?"
"Something Star-Trekky. But, low impact, not too much drama and something the kids can watch."
"Someone is going to pay for that?"
"Already did..."

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 31. Mar 19, 09:35

Morkonan wrote:
Sun, 31. Mar 19, 01:24
One of the things Voyager suffered from was thrusting a collection of characters together in an intimate, "us against the galaxy" kind of setting where there camera is going to be focused on their face every darn week.
If they'd actually remembered the fact that half of the crew were Starfleet and the other half Maquis and played on that rivalry it would have been better, IMHO. Instead, all the ex-Maquis pretty much instantly integrated into the crew, and there was barely any friction even between Janeway and Chakotay--he just slipped into the role of second-in-command and hardly ever questioned Janeway. "Year of Hell" was great until they hit the literal reset button at the end, and the episode where they met other ship that was using aliens to fuel their warp drive was good too, but the dross far outweighed the good bits.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Sun, 31. Mar 19, 13:52

Voyager also suffered from inconsistent writing, where Janeway would contradict herself every other decision. She pissed me off the most on that cast for the same reasons STD gets on my nerves, inconsistency. Characters that switch back and forth on their core values with little or no lasting consequence, a captain no less. BUt that was the 90s so they get a pass, but STD should know better, we are in 2019 and people want good writing. If you want to make a story based series you better know the story you want to tell, but I fear STD has no clue what it wants to say or wants to say it all, which has the same result.

Anyway, saw the latest episode and again it was cringe inducing acting from the lead, forced and unearned attempts at emotional payoffs. I mean all life in the universe is at risk of being wiped out, but lets make sure we risk it all so Micheal can attempt to fix her mommy issues. Lets not listen to the person doing it for how many years.

I would have loved for the show to switch the POV for at least one episode so we could see Micheal mother in action around these events and her struggles to cope with the solitude, THAT would have been interesting and add some context and then they could have the cheese emotional moments but earned. But again that would have required some writing and storytelling skills/effort.

I dont even want to go deep on the whole time-line/time-travel issues the writers clearly skimmed over, setting the "clock" back 10 minutes but still landing 950 years in the future for "plot" reasons, then being able to jump in at any time, but not before the attack on her house? So saving the village including the building can be done but her family not? Why not? Does suit require the infinity stones to be able to overcome plot limitations?

This is why people should NOT write time-travel stories unless they KNOW how, its an interesting gimmick that will make your plot have as many holes as a swiss cheese otherwise.

MFG

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 31. Mar 19, 17:22

Ketraar wrote:
Sun, 31. Mar 19, 13:52
This is why people should NOT write time-travel stories unless they KNOW how, its an interesting gimmick that will make your plot have as many holes as a swiss cheese otherwise.
Best for that was TNG, "Timescape". That was an absolutely fantastic episode/

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Sun, 31. Mar 19, 22:14

so one thing has to be remembered here (its star trek jim but not as we know it) so star trek discovery and the new Star Trek Picard shows are set in the alternative star trek universe based on the 2009 move re-boot
look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OvDbBU7eQ
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 31. Mar 19, 22:27

Ketraar wrote:
Sun, 31. Mar 19, 13:52
...
This is why people should NOT write time-travel stories unless they KNOW how, its an interesting gimmick that will make your plot have as many holes as a swiss cheese otherwise...
Writes dramatic scenes.
Characters really shine. Their values and beliefs are being challenged by an overwhelming force.
Crisis strikes and desperation reigns as everyone is on edge and the Biggest Stakes of All become known.
Time travel...
@^@%^WR@Y@Y%@@@Y PLOT BREAKS EVERYTHING WRITTEN BEFORE IS HORRIBLY BROKED

"The next @$%@%$ who writes one friggin' Star Trek time-travel episode is going to be shot in the face with a bazooka!"
<fifty-eleven scripts are accepted for time-travel stories>

Time-Travel in Star Trek means nothing ever matters. Ever. Forever. Because there is no "ever." F' "time travel." (There are only a couple of episodes where I think it served the story, but the stories where it really mattered really had nothing at all to do with "time travel." Kirk sacrificing love for "the Greater Good," etc.

Oh, and by the way, how in the heck do you "save the universe" more than once and make any of it really matter?

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Olterin » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 01:06

Ronald Sandoval wrote:
Sun, 31. Mar 19, 22:14
so one thing has to be remembered here (its star trek jim but not as we know it) so star trek discovery and the new Star Trek Picard shows are set in the alternative star trek universe based on the 2009 move re-boot
look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OvDbBU7eQ
This claim is at best half-true: In the 2009 movie reboot, the planet Vulcan is destroyed. In Star Trek: Discovery, the very same planet is alive and well. It thus a logical conclusion that they cannot be set in the same universe. As far as we're aware, Discovery is supposed to be set in the actual prime universe.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 05:03

Olterin wrote:
Mon, 1. Apr 19, 01:06
Ronald Sandoval wrote:
Sun, 31. Mar 19, 22:14
so one thing has to be remembered here (its star trek jim but not as we know it) so star trek discovery and the new Star Trek Picard shows are set in the alternative star trek universe based on the 2009 move re-boot
look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OvDbBU7eQ
This claim is at best half-true: In the 2009 movie reboot, the planet Vulcan is destroyed. In Star Trek: Discovery, the very same planet is alive and well. It thus a logical conclusion that they cannot be set in the same universe. As far as we're aware, Discovery is supposed to be set in the actual prime universe.
well yes but this is a much earlier point in time look see Christopher Pike is still running around this is long b4 the time of kirk
you may not be aware of who he is so look here https://uk.ign.com/articles/2019/01/16/ ... nson-mount
Last edited by Ronald Sandoval on Mon, 1. Apr 19, 05:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 05:19

Ronald Sandoval wrote:
Mon, 1. Apr 19, 05:03
Olterin wrote:
Mon, 1. Apr 19, 01:06
Ronald Sandoval wrote:
Sun, 31. Mar 19, 22:14
so one thing has to be remembered here (its star trek jim but not as we know it) so star trek discovery and the new Star Trek Picard shows are set in the alternative star trek universe based on the 2009 move re-boot
look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7OvDbBU7eQ
This claim is at best half-true: In the 2009 movie reboot, the planet Vulcan is destroyed. In Star Trek: Discovery, the very same planet is alive and well. It thus a logical conclusion that they cannot be set in the same universe. As far as we're aware, Discovery is supposed to be set in the actual prime universe.
well yes but this is a much earlier point in time look see Christopher Pike is still running around this is long b4 the time of kirk
you may not be aware of who he is so look here https://uk.ign.com/articles/2019/01/16/ ... nson-mount and no it is the alternative star trek universe that is a fact sorry
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 08:09

I don't believe Discovery is set in the Trek reboot universe for one reason: the aesthetic is completely different. The ships look far closer to the way they did in TOS than the ones in the reboot movies do. There's also the point that the Enterprise was on her maiden voyage in 2258 in the 2009 movie, whereas she was definitely launched earlier than that in the Discovery timeline because it's been stated that the Enterprise and her crew were kept out of the Klingon war (which started in 2256). (The events of the original series pilot "The Menagerie" are also canon in the Discovery timeline, because we just re-visited Talos IV a couple of episodes ago--those also could not have taken place in the movie timeline given the launch date of the Enterprise).

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 09:37

so well i would guess there was many ships called enterprise at different times and the main fact that there are two star trek franchise one held by cbs one held by paramount guess which one this is
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Golden_Gonads » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 16:50

Ronald Sandoval wrote:
Mon, 1. Apr 19, 05:03
well yes but this is a much earlier point in time look see Christopher Pike is still running around this is long b4 the time of kirk
you may not be aware of who he is so look here https://uk.ign.com/articles/2019/01/16/ ... nson-mount
Discovery season 1 is set 10-years pre-Kirk, which is years after the movie-verse diverged. The creators, producers and writers stated this a few thousand times. Discovery IS set in the main (prime) Trek universe/timeline.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 1. Apr 19, 23:23

Ronald Sandoval wrote:
Mon, 1. Apr 19, 09:37
so well i would guess there was many ships called enterprise at different times and the main fact that there are two star trek franchise one held by cbs one held by paramount guess which one this is
^--- Darn good point.

Licensing/rights can have a big impact on story-related stuff. Obviously, each licensee is going to try to differentiate their offerings. But, in today's world... That could get as complex as a Marvel "Multiverse."

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 3. Apr 19, 15:30

pjknibbs wrote:
Mon, 25. Mar 19, 12:31
I don't give half a withered poop about the theme tune, the reason I don't like Enterprise is because it's a massive wasted opportunity, IMHO. Everything was just too similar to the original series, despite supposedly being a century before it--so instead of shields, which are a percentage-based thing that blocks damage, we have "polarised hull plating", which is a percentage-based thing that block damage. The ship originally left dock with practically no weapons, but they had "phase cannons" (aka phasers) before the end of the first season, and "photonic torpedoes" (aka photon torpedoes) at the beginning of season 3. It just struck me as the laziest of lazy writing--everything works exactly as it does in the later series, we'll just call things by different names and hope nobody notices!
Late response!

I dunno, you raise a valid point in regard to technology but I don't think it changes the fact that Enterprise did have a distinctly different feel to all other Star Trek series that is appropriate to the setting and mostly has little to do with the specific tech jargon employed.

Most notably in the sense of threat, most of Star Trek can be characterised as: Cruising round the galaxy in my invincible death machine (but peaceful explorers!), rarely encountering any serious external threat unless it's being presented by what amounts to a God. Even the Borg who were initially introduced as a means of balancing this were a serious threat for about as far as Wolf 359 and little further. Voyager was the worst offender (as is often the case), when first encountered a single cube or even sphere was suitably scary . . . . a season later and they're going toe to toe with a Tactical Cube for half an episode whilst nicking it's warp drive.

By way of contrast every single hostile encounter in Enterprise feels as though they could get their ass kicked, and frequently they do. I can think of multiple episodes of the top of my head where the win condition is just straight up "RUN AWAY!", and / or begging for help from more advanced species.
I like the fact that in the first series they're all starry eyed and "Weapons? We won't need those much will we? Explorers!!" and by the beginning of the second they're "WE NEED GUNS!! UPGRADE THE DAMN WEAPONS!! NOW!!! . . . . ACTUALLY WE CAN'T WAIT WE'LL DO IT OUR-BLOODY-SELVES"
The whole Xindi mission (although I do think this was the point it went downhill) was approached very much with a sense of "This is probably a suicide mission".

That's the biggest single "feel" difference but there are many more:
- Everyone is terrified of the transporter (fair. . . ) and whilst they show some signs of starting to get used to the idea it never become routine.
- Nationality is a real and impactful thing . . . . more than just an amusing association between Picard and wine.
- Racism is VERY overt and pretty much everywhere pre-Federation, explored most in regard to the Vulcans.
- The culture of non-human crew members (mostly the Vulcans but to a lesser extent the Denobulans, sadly as I'd have loved more on them) are explored in a depth that is matched only by DS9 (which I agree is the best Trek).
- The military is still a distinct thing from Starfleet, and pure militaristic thinking is unashamedly on show.

My personal biggest single criticism of Enterprise is the treatment of T'Pol . . . . there really is no excuse for how often she's half naked, nor for the fact she seems to be allergic to wearing a bra. . . . . especially as it's clearly Hoshi who's "the sexy one". :roll:
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Wed, 3. Apr 19, 16:52

If you have read any Star Trek books ( especially the adaptation of the first Star Trek movie) it states it states that most Vulcans find the smell of humans quite revolting.
A flower?

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 3. Apr 19, 21:10

You don't need to read the books to know that, T'Pol in the series was quite up front (if you'll pardon the pun) about finding humans very smelly indeed. Oh, and there was an episode where Hoshi ended up naked from the waist up (although, this being a US prime-time show, you didn't actually see anything much).

[EDIT] Know I said I probably wasn't going to be following Discovery into season 3? I'm thinking I'll bring that timetable up. I've watched most of this season during lunch breaks at work. Been off work this week (just at home, not going anywhere) and I've found I really don't have any desire to watch the next episode--I have better things to be doing in my free time!

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 09:41

The most recent episode was . . . complicated. Some of the most egregious treknobabble I've ever heard, yet . . one is prepared to forgive a lot for THAT Captain Pike scene. :)
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 8. Apr 19, 10:49

This last episode is again in line with the same inconsistent and shallow writing. They keep trying to add meaning to the ships characters, but its written like it was aliens trying to tell a human story. The concept of "show dont tell" is lost on any of them. So we get scenes with disconnected dialog that EXPLAINS us how the characters feel and we just need to (literally) take their word for it. Putting a few people on a table and "play" a stupid game was supposed to mean something I have missed. Are we supposed to know who these characters are?

I'm rambling again and its getting on my nerves, possibly on yours too, so I'll just leave it at this last thing put into spoiler tags just in case some one cares.
Spoiler
Show
So Control has these superduper nanites that can emulate a body to perfection by just moving a "a few" nanites around, also have super strengths but fights like a person without taking advantage of its shape shifting ability when its needed? I call bull on that "I'm trying to infect you with nanites but I need to do it with a syringe so we can have a struggle, but then for some reason its a moot point and I'll just try and invade you "manually" because... plot reasons".
This is why this show sucks, its Dark Matter season 3 level of atrocious
MFG

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