Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

[pjknibbs]

They did, indeed, go with that in the first season. Mudd had some sort of time travel device and was messing up the timeline.

[Morkonan]

They did, indeed, go with that in the first season. Mudd had some sort of time travel device and was messing up the timeline.

So, from "Loveable Rogue" to "Time-Traveling Psychopath?" Oh, noes! Another dream dashed against the rocks of retconning reboots... {roducers/writers "doing stuff just to do it" is just... wrong. Next up - Carnivorous Tribbles.

[Usenko]

They did, indeed, go with that in the first season. Mudd had some sort of time travel device and was messing up the timeline.

So, from "Loveable Rogue" to "Time-Traveling Psychopath?" Oh, noes! Another dream dashed against the rocks of retconning reboots... {roducers/writers "doing stuff just to do it" is just... wrong. Next up - Carnivorous Tribbles.

It's difficult to explain, but he works. He's definitely more or less the same character, but in the darker universe he comes across darker.

He's a conman, through and through. And he's funny. But he's willing to hurt people if it suits his goals (which, to be fair, is not actually contradicting his original character; just we never got to see him during an actual shooting war).

One of the Short Trek series is a 15 minute Harry Mudd story, and it is absolutely brilliant. It's enough to say that you're never quite sure whether Mudd is telling the truth or not right up to the end; but no matter what you're expecting, you're wrong.

[Bishop149]

5) The personality of Tilly is adorable; but she appears somewhat incompetent, and it's hard to see why they're giving a mere ensign such a lot of responsibility. We need to see why they put up with such a dweeb on one of the most advanced starships in the fleet.

I have never seen her as being the slightest bit incompetent. She's ditzy, and tends to stumble over her words, but in her field she's every bit as good as Stamets is. It was her that came up with the plan to capture the asteroid, after all.

To me Tilly embodies what the federation should be and indeed likes to promotes itself as. Competent and strong sure, but first and foremost compassionate, cooperative and kind.
The fact she's such a stark contrast to most of what she's surrounded by is, I like to think, something of a commentary on what Starfleet has generally been portrayed as to date.
Up to a point I see Stamets in a similar way, and I really think he encapsulated Tilly beautifully in the first episode of season 2 with: "You're going to be great Captain, you do everything with love."

BTW whilst googling to see if I spelt his name right I discovered this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Stamets

[Usenko]

5) The personality of Tilly is adorable; but she appears somewhat incompetent, and it's hard to see why they're giving a mere ensign such a lot of responsibility. We need to see why they put up with such a dweeb on one of the most advanced starships in the fleet.

I have never seen her as being the slightest bit incompetent. She's ditzy, and tends to stumble over her words, but in her field she's every bit as good as Stamets is. It was her that came up with the plan to capture the asteroid, after all.

To me Tilly embodies what the federation should be and indeed likes to promotes itself as. Competent and strong sure, but first and foremost compassionate, cooperative and kind.
The fact she's such a stark contrast to most of what she's surrounded by is, I like to think, something of a commentary on what Starfleet has generally been portrayed as to date.
Up to a point I see Stamets in a similar way, and I really think he encapsulated Tilly beautifully in the first episode of season 2 with: "You're going to be great Captain, you do everything with love."

BTW whilst googling to see if I spelt his name right I discovered this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Stamets

I would agree with this entirely, but it doesn't invalidate my concern - I want to actually SEE Tilly's ccmpetence. Some people are saying her awkwardness is irritating; not at all, that's fine. Just let us see what she's good at, not just tantalising hints when she's actually done something amazing off screen!

[Morkonan]

...It's difficult to explain, but he works. He's definitely more or less the same character, but in the darker universe he comes across darker.

I can understand that, it's just that I think they may have reached for him as a crutch to draw on some nostalgia value rather than starting off by writing a good, new, character.

"We need a Big Bad."
"Let's make him an arch-criminal!"
"Harry Mudd?"
"Awesome! Whew, for a minute I was worried we'd have to really try to get fans interested in him!"

So, "Harry Mudd" enters the scene and the fans coo and drool. Great, a one-shot has its effect and they can start making a story. But, then the value of "Harry Mudd" has been used up after the episode is over.

Or..

"Villain X" gets created and all the same story is told. Well, except for one dilemma that the crew can't solve - "How do we outsmart this criminal?" A quick journey to an out-of-the-way starbase in a practically lawless region of space, the bridge doors slide open and Harry Mudd steps through... "So, you need to outsmart a criminal? I'm your man!" /scene /fans go crazy /next-episode-is-most-viewed-ever

I guess I gotta watch the show. I've been hesitant and have had a severe lack of interest, but it's all going to end up being wound into the rest of the series spinoffs I'm sure.

[Usenko]

No and no.

Harry Mudd isn't really an arch-criminal. He's a rogue, but a rogue who doesn't mind shooting the person he feels has wronged him with a phaser (especially when he thinks there won't be any consequences - but that's about as much as I can tell you without spoiler tags! ). His actions DO have an impact on the storyline, though, in a peripheral (but nevertheless reasonably clever) way.

He could be called "lovable", for a given value of lovable (i.e. one that has to include the ability to love someone who is selfish, greedy and too clever by half. ).

[berth]

Well, just watched ep2 and enjoyed it a lot more than the first one - very much more old Trek style scenario.

One thing bugged me though:

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They used the dark matter asteroid to divert the debris away from the planet by towing it in the tractor beam and letting it attract all the bits. I'm willing to accept that our current theory of dark matter being the same as normal matter, mass-wise, could be incorrect but why not just use the tractor beam if it's strong enough to tow the dark matter during a "space doughnut"?

But maybe it's just me

Tl;dr I'll carry on watching.

[Usenko]

I just watched Ep2 with my daughters.

You know what I said about Tilly?

THAT. That was what I was wanting to see.

Thoroughly enjoyed the episode. A few science fails, but generally well done.

[pjknibbs]

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They used the dark matter asteroid to divert the debris away from the planet by towing it in the tractor beam and letting it attract all the bits. I'm willing to accept that our current theory of dark matter being the same as normal matter, mass-wise, could be incorrect but why not just use the tractor beam if it's strong enough to tow the dark matter during a "space doughnut"?

Pretty simple explanation there:

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The tractor beam is a highly directional gravitational source--it has to be, to be useful--and they simply can't spread it out enough to capture all the bits. Therefore, they have to use the dark matter asteroid to do that job while they steer it using the tractor beam.

[berth]

Spoiler

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They used the dark matter asteroid to divert the debris away from the planet by towing it in the tractor beam and letting it attract all the bits. I'm willing to accept that our current theory of dark matter being the same as normal matter, mass-wise, could be incorrect but why not just use the tractor beam if it's strong enough to tow the dark matter during a "space doughnut"?

Pretty simple explanation there:

Spoiler

Show

The tractor beam is a highly directional gravitational source--it has to be, to be useful--and they simply can't spread it out enough to capture all the bits. Therefore, they have to use the dark matter asteroid to do that job while they steer it using the tractor beam.

Yeah, I know what you're saying but

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it depends on how one imagines a tractor beam would work. If it generates a field of say, 10 Newtons at a remote point (in order to tow something) then surely that is equivalent to there being a mass of 10N at that point. In which case, they wouldn't need to actually tow the asteroid as the beam end would be equivalent to a point with a mass at least equal to that of the asteroid.

[pjknibbs]

Well, in that case: to borrow a phrase I've heard used by content creators online before, instead of making assumptions that don't fit with the narrative and then complaining about plot holes, why not make assumptions that *do* fit with the narrative?

[berth]

Who's complaining? I'm just looking for consistency.
Anyway, I shall try your approach henceforth

[esd]

I always imagined a tractor beam generated directional "gravitons" that travel from target to starship, thus being a highly directional effect. You'd need to target each peice of debris individually with the tractor beam, or use the asteroid as a big magnet on the end of a fishing line while playing hook-a-duck.

[berth]

Ep 3. Hitting its stride now I think.

I like how they are identifying the bridge crew more now - I couldn't have told you their names at the end of season 1, even after the second watch.

[pjknibbs]

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good episode, and it's clear that the showrunners listened to some of the criticisms of the Klingons from the first series--giving them hair again and having them speak at a decent pace were both good changes. I do wonder if the Empress''s stealth ship is the beginnings of Section 31, that caused so much trouble in the DS9 days?

[Golden_Gonads]

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good episode, and it's clear that the showrunners listened to some of the criticisms of the Klingons from the first series--giving them hair again and having them speak at a decent pace were both good changes. I do wonder if the Empress''s stealth ship is the beginnings of Section 31, that caused so much trouble in the DS9 days?

Beginnings? I thought they began in Enterprise?

[pjknibbs]

Beginnings? I thought they began in Enterprise?

If it didn't happen in the first part of season 1 of Enterprise then I never saw it.

[Morkonan]

Beginnings? I thought they began in Enterprise?

If it didn't happen in the first part of season 1 of Enterprise then I never saw it.

I saw most of the Episodes, but don't remember the story. A quick search reveals this: http://www.klingonarmadainternational.c ... on-history (Prob best on MemoryAlpha, but I just read the first one I came across.)

To me, the efforts that various producers have gone through in order to mansplain every bit of weird contradictory lore-stuff in the whole lexicon is just... shoddy work. And, the one I hate the most, with a passion, is the whole "Progenators" bit of wholesale crapola "story." To be honest, all of these bits of junk only serve to water down and devalue the things that they're trying to make "cool." It's not "cool" to suggest that the Klingons we see "today" are.... Well, read the friggin stoopid story they came up with to find out.

[Bishop149]

And, the one I hate the most, with a passion, is the whole "Progenators" bit of wholesale crapola "story."

Wasn't that bit basically just one episode of TNG?
I recall rather liking it. The Klingons, Romulans and Humans discover the fundamental truth that all the humanoid species of the Alpha quadrant (possibly the galaxy, I can't recall) are in fact related to one another, a result of deliberate and directed panspermia. Answering whole the: Why the hell is nearly every damn "alien" humanoid? question of the Star Trek universe.
The evidence is neatly destroyed and the Klingons and Romulans involved essentially storm off in a huff promising to pretend the whole thing never happened, whilst the human characters sagely state: "They'll never accept it"
And indeed they didn't and it was never mentioned again in all of Star Trek canon.
The whole episode I felt was a commentary on the the trope of the Reset button

I also quite liked the various Retconnings of TOS era Klingons. First it was simply treated with humour but not explained in the slightest in DS9*: "We do NOT speak of it!". Then Enterprise came up with a rather feasible explanation for the whole thing based on established canon.
*Whilst we're on that particular episode of DS9 I thoroughly enjoyed a lot of the other Reconning they did. The Klingons declaring Tribbles to be "Mortal enemies of the Empire" and going to war with them. The aesthetics explained by the entire federation essentially going through a retro fashion phase. All very silly, all very brilliant.