Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 14:41

Bishop149 wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 14:16
Point of interest, tangentially related to a plot point in the episode.
Has ST ever shown a Federation species for whom vocalisation (telepathic or otherwise) is NOT their primary method of communication? I remember a few examples of such things but always as the "challenge of the episode to be overcome" not a facet of every day life in a multi-species Federation. If not they really should, because real life biology is replete with such species.
I have thought about this a bit, and also listened to a few podcasts about such things.

It is true that there are many forms of communication in nature other than vocalisation. And some species indeed use them as their primary means of communication.

However, none of these are complex spacefaring species (or even complex tool-making species). And there is something that vocalisation (whether spoken, telepathic or perhaps by radio) can do that other forms (e.g. pheromones or colour change) can't do - that is, communicating complicated ideas quickly. It's about bandwidth, to borrow a technological term - you need to be able to communicate "Go to the green panel with these markings, and then open it up. Using a dog-legged gooble clencher, remove the 0.5cm grippy and replace it with an eye splice. Then close the panel, reboot the system and test it." I can't see how you'd do that with pheromones . . .
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 15:41

Usenko wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 14:41
And there is something that vocalisation (whether spoken, telepathic or perhaps by radio) can do that other forms (e.g. pheromones or colour change) can't do - that is, communicating complicated ideas quickly. It's about bandwidth, to borrow a technological term - you need to be able to communicate "Go to the green panel with these markings, and then open it up. Using a dog-legged gooble clencher, remove the 0.5cm grippy and replace it with an eye splice. Then close the panel, reboot the system and test it." I can't see how you'd do that with pheromones . . .
I'm not so sure about that, I think there might be a bit of anthropocentric bias here.
The primary means by which we teach complex processes is not vocalisation, it's demonstration. Sure we can tell each other how do a complex task, but its a poor substitute for someone showing you. Demonstration is also is also how the various other tool using species of which we're aware transfer knowledge.

In regard to bandwidth all means of communication will depend heavily on specific adaptations of the species in question, both in regard to the transmitting and receiving apparatus. It's hard to argue that something like a squids chromatophores wouldn't have a potentially HUGE bandwidth. Humans are VERY good at seeing, but somewhat less good a transmitting visual information. We likely thus use sound to communicate because we can both transmit and receive it with near equal efficiency, although we are far from the "best" at either.
Imagine the potential complexity in a smell . . . . we just lack the ability to detect it.
Have you seen "Arrival"? I mean the fact it was an ink blot is a little silly but the idea of communication all at once via a complex shape, yeah, absolutely feasible if you have the cognitive wiring to deal with it (which we kinda do in our eyes, but not in our brains).

The hard limits on all these things are:
- The chemistry and spacial constraints of neurons and the bandwidth that provides, which even on Earth that can vary quite a bit between species.
- The fact that it's likely that no communication system (or nervous system come to that) ever evolved purely for communication but is generalised to cover a range of other functions and is thus inefficient.
Hypothetically, I could conceive of a optical biological comms system with a bandwidths approaching that achievable by electronic means . . . it's just that such efficiency and mono-functionality is unlikely to evolve :roll:

One further point, communicating knowledge over large distances (spacial or temporal) requires writing. My bias tell me that vocalisation lends itself well to writing but I remind myself that it is entirely possible for written communication to bear no resemblance to vocal communication. See the various human pictographic or symbolic written languages, such could equally be true of the writing of non-vocal communications.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by esd » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 23:21

It really reminded me of The Orville when the officer was explaining why a cold was really bad for them...
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 23:53

On the subject of "communication:"

Verbal communication is extremely complex and "feature rich" in humans. It is, by far, our most capable form of communication. We can shout over long distances, change our tone and pitch, place emphasis on certain words and change the entire meaning of them by doing so and we can sing or grunt with equal efficacy. Or vocal range is outstanding and our voices, themselves, are self-identifying - Anyone who knows us knows who it is that is speaking, even if they can't see us.

The human face is remarkable. How many antelope can you tell apart from just their "faces?" Both voice and face can be combined in complex displays that almost any human can understand. Some human cultures, however, have different interpretations of certain facial expressions. But, these are usually isolated cultures. Even so, there are prominent cultures that use specific facial expressions, so human facial expressions are likely heavily based on cultural/social adaption. Inflection and vocal emphasis, less so, due to more mechanical imperatives. (That shouldn't be surprising - Sexual Selection likely accounts for the greatest impact in the resulting diversity of human facial appearance.)

And, we can't underestimate other body movement/displays as communicating information, internal states, intent, etc...

Combining all of this represents the "very best form" of human communication. Examples of that can easily be seen on stage and screen or in an actor's studio where they are being taught by "Masters" at the craft.

All because we don't have functional "plumage." If we had feathers that changed configuration in response to an internal state, we'd be using those a lot too. :)

The written word is, of course, the most durable. It is also one of the most "sure" forms of communication when it is properly constructed and then read by someone who is fluent with it. There is little possibility for ambiguity or misunderstanding with the written word - It communicates what its creator intends it to communicate. We do not have to personally witness Marcus Aurelious's stoic expression as he communicates his information to us. Instead, we can completely comprehend the substance of his communication over 2000 years later simply by reading what he wrote.

Star Trek has implied different formats for a species's communication as well as different methods. But, the significance of those has always been difficult to translate to the audience. Who wants to hear grunts, growls, and then watch some tortured puppeteer have to animate hair rising? So, they have the "Universal Translator" and we do not have to try to interpret the color display and light-show of a Tholian pilot as it renders its judgement on the crew of the Enterprise... They get a nice tinny voice blaring from a speaker as interpreted by an on-board Universal Translator, instead.

Symbols last. They can be easily manipulated for maximum efficiency with the absolute minimum mastery necessary for use and interpretation. With enough symbols in a set that are easily understood by the user, they can communicate anything they wish for an appropriately armed audience. And, that's very important, too - A written language is predicated on the notion that it is being used by an audience that is capable of comprehending it.

I'm reminded of Hubbard's "Psychlos." Despite he, himself, being off-kilter, he was a great science-fiction writer. The Psychlos had a form of mathematics that could not be understood and it was the secret that guarded their most powerful technological capabilities - Teleportation. But, it's "math" and it should have self-evident "truths," right? Right! But... not Psychlo math. And, there was a reason for that which I won't reveal, but it is because the mathematics required privileged information that nobody but a Psychlo could possess. It was, in fact, not a fully logical and self-contained form of communication as anyone would think a rigorous system of mathematics should be.

That's brilliant "sci-fi" right there. The key to everything lay in something that the author sci-fi-twisted into something else, entirely.

IMO, if you want to think about forms of alien communication "realistically," then a lot of what is being communicated will rely on the assumed capabilities and knowledge of the audience. Aliens would likely choose to speak a form of "pidgin" instead of a fully voiced native tongue. Simple concepts may even be impossible to understand because the audience has no common ground that can be relied upon for a sure interpretation. Even so, shared principles that are immediately in evidence might be easy. "Ship go here" is pretty darn sure to be interpreted correctly. "Give me KFC Chicken" will not be.


Star Trek is a TV show. We'd get much more detailed and complex representations of "alien language" if it was a series of books. Special effects are easier to create with ink than lights, plaster, and latex. :)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Tue, 12. Feb 19, 08:19

Interesting factoid about human communication: if you look at pretty much any other mammal on the planet, you'll notice that the coloured part of the eye covers almost the entire visible part of the eyeball. The reasons humans evolved to have significant parts of the white visible in their eyes is thought to be down to communication--it allows you to see at a glance where someone else is looking.

As for episode 4--I think it was my favourite so far. The stuff with Tilly in the engine room I could take or leave, but the rest of it was spectacular. I do worry a bit about Saru, though:
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At the end he said he could feel his power. Could that be a hint that his transformation will lead somewhere dark?

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Tue, 12. Feb 19, 13:35

Morkonan wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 23:53
Star Trek has implied different formats for a species's communication as well as different methods. But, the significance of those has always been difficult to translate to the audience. Who wants to hear grunts, growls, and then watch some tortured puppeteer have to animate hair rising? So, they have the "Universal Translator" and we do not have to try to interpret the color display and light-show of a Tholian pilot as it renders its judgement on the crew of the Enterprise... They get a nice tinny voice blaring from a speaker as interpreted by an on-board Universal Translator, instead.
In the most recent Discovery episode, there was a very nice moment that kind of tackled this.

One officer is a Saurian. Named Linus[1]. He was speaking to the crew during a meeting. At first you heard his strange, clicking voice. For a moment, the rest of the crew looked at him, a little mystified, but not particularly concerned (i.e. they're used to this sort of thing happening occasionally). Shortly afterwards a warm, rich voice spoke over his clicking, and apologised - apparently the Universal Translator had been having trouble coping with some of his clicks and pops. And then he continued with what he had been saying - and importantly, this remained his voice for the rest of the episiode, with his clicks and pops audible (just) but mainly there was now a translation convention in place.

Quite neat, I thought.

[1] Somehow having a distinctly alien creature with such a human name is a cute juxtaposition. :)
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Tue, 12. Feb 19, 14:13

Some things are better but still have little engagement with the bridge crew. What are their names?

(Edit : I know the Orville bridge better after a similar number of episodes.)
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by berth » Tue, 12. Feb 19, 14:19

I don't know but they do have them :)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Wed, 13. Feb 19, 11:05

So far we've had Owosekun (nicknamed "Owo", who came from an amish-like commune on Earth), Airam (who is a cyborg of some description, yet to be [heh] fleshed out), Detmer (who was on the Shenzou with Burnham before the Klingon War, and was injured in some as yet undescribed way and therefore appears to have an artificial eye and some kind of head appliance) and Bryce (Human, yet to be featured). So . . getting there. :)
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Wed, 13. Feb 19, 22:33

Usenko wrote:
Tue, 12. Feb 19, 13:35
Quite neat, I thought.

[1] Somehow having a distinctly alien creature with such a human name is a cute juxtaposition. :)
:)

That reminds me of Louis Gossett Jr.'s portrayal of Drac i "Enemy Mine." I was gobsmacked! I had seen him in other offerings, but it was usually the sort of "tough black man" kind of character. It wasn't really something that demonstrated his capability at his craft. So, here's this "tough black man" character taking on a realistic portrayal of an "alien" and he friggin' aces it. ACES IT! From his dialogue to his mannerisms and then his transformation from a "Male Warrior" to a "Female Mother" sort of character... Good gravy, that was awesome. There are "face men who can manage to act like the same character in every movie" who end up as leads and then there are "actors who make movies."

I don't think it's a well-regarded movie outside of Sci-Fi fans. But, I like it. :) Chiefly because of Gossett and Quaid being good at their job. :) At least it wasn't a straight "Robinson Crusoe meets an Alien" flick.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Redvers Ganderpoke » Sat, 16. Feb 19, 15:05

I've decided what makes it untrek, it's Michael's dreary, monotone, monologues.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Sun, 17. Feb 19, 13:45

Morkonan wrote:
Wed, 13. Feb 19, 22:33
Usenko wrote:
Tue, 12. Feb 19, 13:35
Quite neat, I thought.

[1] Somehow having a distinctly alien creature with such a human name is a cute juxtaposition. :)
:)

That reminds me of Louis Gossett Jr.'s portrayal of Drac i "Enemy Mine." I was gobsmacked! I had seen him in other offerings, but it was usually the sort of "tough black man" kind of character. It wasn't really something that demonstrated his capability at his craft. So, here's this "tough black man" character taking on a realistic portrayal of an "alien" and he friggin' aces it. ACES IT! From his dialogue to his mannerisms and then his transformation from a "Male Warrior" to a "Female Mother" sort of character... Good gravy, that was awesome. There are "face men who can manage to act like the same character in every movie" who end up as leads and then there are "actors who make movies."

I don't think it's a well-regarded movie outside of Sci-Fi fans. But, I like it. :) Chiefly because of Gossett and Quaid being good at their job. :) At least it wasn't a straight "Robinson Crusoe meets an Alien" flick.
I never saw the movie. However, there was a copy of the novelization in the box 'o' books in my English classroom during Year 11 at high school, and it was a brilliant book. It was one of the reasons I became a fan of Science Fiction, I think.

(As for Lou Gosset Jr: I was a fan of his right from the otherwise terrible movie "Iron Eagle." :)
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 17. Feb 19, 21:41

Usenko wrote:
Sun, 17. Feb 19, 13:45
...(As for Lou Gosset Jr: I was a fan of his right from the otherwise terrible movie "Iron Eagle." :)
Same, though I think I first saw him in "The Deep." IIRC, his head got smushed by a moray eel. :) Terrible darn movie.

"Enemy Mine" is worth watching. It's got some overtly presented social commentary and such, but the story is good.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 18. Feb 19, 16:22

I saw it many years ago. Some woeful SFX, but most of it was a bottle story so not an issue.

As for Discovery--not sure what to think about E5. Not sure why that certain person needed to come back, or why the entire episode was devoted to the Tilly sideplot. Definitely a B or a C, IMHO.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 18. Feb 19, 17:09

pjknibbs wrote:
Mon, 18. Feb 19, 16:22
As for Discovery--not sure what to think about E5. Not sure why that certain person needed to come back, or why the entire episode was devoted to the Tilly sideplot. Definitely a B or a C, IMHO.
It was a comparatively weak episode.
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They may have taken fan service a little too far, people really loved Paul and Hugh as a couple and where hit equally hard by their tragic end. So they bring them back?!
I mean it's all very lovely, but I think its a shame to diminish said tragedy. . . . . especially when they could so easily have walked the line down the middle with "Hes alive but confined to the mycelial network"
Alternatively they may have gone the way they did primarily because of how they want to Stamets to play. They clearly want him to stay on as a character and I don't think they want to use up his screen time with a bunch of "dealing with the loss my love" stuff. Discovery is generally relentlessly upbeat, Section 31 are pretty obviously going to be the foil to this and I'm guessing they didn't want another, less tractable downbeat thread as a B-plot.

Other than that the main thing that stuck out for me was how blasé everyone seems to be about Section 31. They prevailing attitude seemed to be "Yeah they exist and whilst a little dodgy they're probably ok". As opposed to what we've seen to date which has been disbelief that they actually exist swiftly followed by horror at what they stand for. This can't really be explained by timeline either seeing as we've seen this reaction both before (Enterpise) and after (DS9) the setting of Discovery
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Usenko » Tue, 19. Feb 19, 14:56

Yeah. I'd call it a C (but we've had a run of high Bs and As, so this isn't a big problem, unless it's the first of a run of weak ones).

As for the plot:
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* I think the Tilly plot was okay. She became a bit too attached to her mycelial friend a bit too quickly, but the fact that she wanted to help out was very much in keeping with her character.

* I struggle with gay relationships at the best of times, but with that in mind even I could see that the Stamets/Culber relationship was acted beautifully.

* I agree that having Culber in the Myclial network permanently would be a better dramatic option. It would mean that Stamets had a difficult choice - since he knows that he can't be connected with the network without damaging it, does he ignore the damage and remain in contact with his love, or does he do what he knows to be right at the cost of never seeing Culber again?
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Ketraar » Tue, 19. Feb 19, 15:26

So
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No one really dies in STD then I guess and everything is just pointless drama with no real lasting event.
In comparison I just rewatched Firefly and man STD sucks spaceballs.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Morkonan » Tue, 19. Feb 19, 21:08

Ketraar wrote:
Tue, 19. Feb 19, 15:26
So
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No one really dies in STD then I guess and everything is just pointless drama with no real lasting event.
In comparison I just rewatched Firefly and man STD sucks spaceballs.
I'm reminded of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhGfCpBcDzs

I'm man enough to admit it - Someone must have been slicing onions when I watched that.
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Sometimes, they have to die. If they don't, the story isn't a good story. If the story is written for a character to die, then... they should friggin' die. Even if it hurts. Maybe, because it would hurt.

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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by esd » Mon, 25. Feb 19, 01:00

I thought that the Ba'ul...
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were gonna be evolved Kelpians.
I was wrong.
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Re: Discovery Season 2 (spoilers likely)

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 25. Feb 19, 09:41

esd wrote:
Mon, 25. Feb 19, 01:00
I thought that the Ba'ul...
I thought the same.
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