You aren't normal

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Antilogic
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You aren't normal

Post by Antilogic » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 11:16

Quotes from a highly upvoted reddit thread I will not link here. If you wish to read the full bile, just google about the subject matter there's plenty of hate to go around.

The concept of normal has always been a difficult one for me. I always felt I wanted to be, without ever being able to define what normal actually was. When I was younger, normal was this religious cult and abnormal was everyone else. Then I realised they the cultists were not the normal ones. Or were they just normal for their environment?
Another word that works is "NORMAL".
Sometimes we find it scary to be linked with things we don't like or don't understand. This user is lashing out because they consider themselves normal. This is what they are responding to:
And cisgender is used in academic context to differentiate from transgender, so it’s not even an unneccessary word, it has its purpose. People not wanting to use it is something else entirely.
Ah yes, it's a thread about transgender people. This always gets the blood flowing for some. The first user is disliking the concept of "cisgender" as a word, preferring "normal". This has the effect of painting themselves in the right, the everyday man, the clean upstanding American citizen stereotype, etc, etc. The "normal" person as opposed to the abnormal, the degenerates, the people who really should probably be kept a close eye on because
The influence that a tiny fraction of mentally disturbed people has on society is worrisome. Transgenders are irrelevant and should be ignored.
Of which comes through ignorance, willful or otherwise. The stigma of mental illness is automatically applied, regardless of if mental illness is even a valid consideration, but it adds to the arguments of the "normals" vs the "abnormals".

A good quote
The problem here is the desperate clinging to the right to call oneself "normal." When someone challenges the idea of any group of people considering themselves "normal" and all others abnormal, they have a stroke. On the other hand, reinforcing the idea that x group is "normal" and group y is not in turn reinforces the supremacy of x group and validates their perceived right to dominate those who are in any group other than x.
I'm not normal. I'm somewhat OK with that now. I spent a lot of time trying to be what the people around be wanted to me to be. These days I have to use labels for me to understand, which is fine for some extent. Transgender, bipolar, etc, whatever. But those labels simply allow people to fit me into their boxes in their mind, allow doctors to balance treatment packages around me that at least somewhat apply. The labels don't make me normal, or abnormal, and they don't define me. They simply allow a process to complete.

I'm not sure I've ever actually met anyone who is really normal as they would like to be. They all want to understand their place in the world. The problem comes from when people like some of the above users start to declare their normal is the "right normal". When they won't talk to people who are outside of their personal definitions, not because of their actions but because of their physical and mental being. They start to advocate for laws to oppress the "abnormals". They start to take physical action against them.

People who talk to me about this sort of thing sometimes wonder why I struggle to be more "myself" in the real world.

I wonder with the level of hatred and violence against the "abnormals" still present in the world, how anyone can be "themselves" at all.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 12:08

Things like this remind me of when the US air force (in 1926) decided it was too expensive and complicated to make the seating in plane cockpits adjustable, so they instead created a "normal" seating arrangement based on a number of measurements taken from their pilot core and averaged out. As planes started getting faster in the 1940s they found the pilots were having real trouble controlling them, so they did a massive study in 1950 to see if the "average" pilot had somehow changed since 1926. One of the technicians involved in that study decided to see how many of the 4000 pilots studied actually matched this mythical average, so he averaged out the 10 most important measurements with a generous margin for error (e.g. the average height was 5' 9", he allowed for anything between 5' 7" and 5' 11"). When he tabulated his results, he found that not *one* of those 4000 pilots fit within his average on all 10 dimensions. Even if you limited it to just 3 measurements less than 4% of pilots would match on all of them. The conclusion? If you design your cockpit to fit the average man, you're designing it to fit nobody, which is why your pilots keep crashing.

Now, that's all obviously a purely physical representation, but there's no reason why the brain would not be the same. There is no such thing as an average, or "normal", person, and we should celebrate that fact, not try to fit people into little boxes.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Alee Enn » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 14:34

Normal .... oh boy .... I should say, I had typed out paragraphs to respond to this, and have just deleted them.

Normal ... think of it like this, I look at the world, and I see the colour RED but how do I know that what I see is RED is what you see is RED? For all I know, what I see is RED you might see is RED.

RED to me is normal, but RED to you might be normal. Just what is normal anyway?

I could go on an on about this, but it's probably best if I leave it as that. :)
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by felter » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 16:26

pjknibbs wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 12:08
this remind me of when the US air force (in 1926)
WOW your a lot older than I thought. :roll: :oops: :P :twisted:
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by fiksal » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 17:16

@Antilogic

"Normal" when used to describe a human, by itself has no meaning to me. I've used this word before though, but in specific contexts, and maybe half of the time sarcastically.


as far as human genders go, there's no normal. There's no template to compare us to, because, there's no master designer who created us.



Coincidentally, had to look up the definition of the "cisgender". I've heard it here and there but never checked what it meant.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Golden_Gonads » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 18:22

Everyone is abnormal. That is normal.

... Typing that made my head hurt.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Antilogic » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:28

fiksal wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 17:16
@Antilogic

"Normal" when used to describe a human, by itself has no meaning to me. I've used this word before though, but in specific contexts, and maybe half of the time sarcastically.
as far as human genders go, there's no normal. There's no template to compare us to, because, there's no master designer who created us.
Coincidentally, had to look up the definition of the "cisgender". I've heard it here and there but never checked what it meant.
I agree, and I expect most people who post here understand this. It's more about:
The problem comes from when people like some of the above users start to declare their normal is the "right normal". When they won't talk to people who are outside of their personal definitions, not because of their actions but because of their physical and mental being. They start to advocate for laws to oppress the "abnormals". They start to take physical action against them.
And then my own personal issues around trying to be me - which is partly anxiety and partly I think a very real fear. I don't have to go looking to come across hatred like this. It's everywhere. And not just about me. My girlfriend has hatred for who she is from her own family.

I don't get that. They watched her grow up, into the person she is now. And yet...... It's logical to them, but I could never understand it.
Last edited by Antilogic on Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by BugMeister » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:32

- but you gotta think that love is normal - not hate..
- hate is not good for anyone, anytime..

- people are strange - that is normal..
- it's the differences between us that make us who we are..

- it's normal to care for each other..
- don't be afraid to ask for help..
- you are not alone..
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Antilogic
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Antilogic » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:35

BugMeister wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:32
- but you gotta think that love is normal - not hate..
- hate is not good for anyone, anytime..
Few people think they are "hating" though. The old adage of everyone being the hero of their own story is not that untrue. Someone being violent towards me might be doing so for a number of reasons but to them it's logical.

There are some who embrace the idea of hating - White Power, or whatever. But those are rare. The politician who votes against equal rights for gay couples doesn't think they are hating, they think they are protecting something - or any other reason logical to them.

We are all capable of this.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by BugMeister » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:45

- logic is mostly a mathematical thing..
- Einstein was always at pains to explain this
- and he was just a normal bloke really..
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by BugMeister » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:48

Golden_Gonads wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 18:22
Everyone is abnormal. That is normal.

... Typing that made my head hurt.
- ace.. :lol:

hey, antilogic - feel free to message me any time..
- even if you just want to bounce ideas
- I'm a thousand years old, but I still got much to learn..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZwD-ng5-Ng
- we're all in this together..
:)
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Antilogic
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Antilogic » Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:57

BugMeister wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:48
hey, antilogic - feel free to message me any time..
- even if you just want to bounce ideas
- I'm a thousand years old, but I still got much to learn..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZwD-ng5-Ng
- we're all in this together..
:)
I appreciate that :)

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Rug » Sun, 10. Feb 19, 22:32

Kind of off-topic, but hey, why not ...
There is a wonderfully quirky Spanish film called "Requirements to be a normal person". I watched it on Amazon Prime, but you may find it elsewhere. Described as a rom-com, but don't let that put you off. Well worth watching I think.

On a more relevant note, it seems to me that people fall into two broad categories (although there may well be some out-liers of course) : those who think that how they see things is (or at least should be) an acceptable viewpoint, and those who think how they see things is the only acceptable view. I prefer people in the first group I think. The second would be where the racist/homophobic/bigoted/whateverist people would tend to fall.

For the first group, not normal could include any number of acceptable (as well as some unacceptable) variants, while the second group would be more inclined to make everything that was not normal be 'unacceptable'.

Me? I'm in the 'I hope I'm right, but I have many doubts about most things that I think and do' category, which I hope is an acceptable way to live...

Anti... I don't really know you from Adam, but I think you're a star. You wrote the single most memorable post I have ever read on any forum, and I know it touched a lot of us here very deeply. It may not be a bed of roses being you, but please don't even think about trying to become normal if that means changing who you are !

Rug

P.S. That last bit sounds a bit bossy... You do what you want, OK. But I hope the intended meaning got across too.
I like to think everyone just wants to feel human.

(Antilogic)

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Morkonan » Sun, 10. Feb 19, 23:39

Antilogic wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 11:16
....<writes and quotes normal stuff>....
:)

If you want to know the truth, you seem perfectly normal to me.

No kidding. In fact, most people here seem perfectly normal to me.

Why?

It's because I can't crawl into your head or that of anyone else. It's because you aren't here in my den trying to have sex with a goat on my wool rug. Or, the rug for that matter. It's because we haven't gone to grab some lunch and you haven't slathered your entire plate of food with undigested bird sputem. It's because you have not exhibited any overt behaviors that I would consider to be unusual or abnormal for a human being to exhibit. You may, in fact, be communicating via the internetz while wearing a furry suit and bathing in a giant hottub full of KFC gravy for all I know. Not because you have a fetish for such things, just because you find it impossible to function as a human being, or giant panda, without dressing up like that while bathing in a hottub full of KFC gravy...

The key to this whole concept of "normal" isn't some set of ideals that you hold in your head. The key is whether or not you can "function as a human being in a society of human beings."

Back in the day of the DSM-III, the "Diagnostics and Statistical Manual of the American Psychological Association," (It's up to V or VI now, I think?) there was one fundamental and necessary attribute of a "Mental Illness." Does it prevent the person from functioning "normally" in society? It should NOT be surprising to anyone that because of that frequently cited standard the DSM keeps friggin getting re-written... :)

Here's my own observation on the whole subject as its presented by its most outspoken and troubled participants:

It's mostly adolescent B.S. sprinkled with some very vocal people who are confused because they've been placing far too much value on what other vocal, yet seriously screwed up people, have to say on the matter. FAR too many people, and almost all younger persons, place far too much importance on finding a "group" to belong to and then adopting the values, standards, and behaviors of that group in order to then try to "define themselves." Yes, i know it sounds trite and demeaning, but one can't just refuse to ignore the issue because someone doesn't like what one is saying, can one?

Society at large defines itself by whatever its most visible attributes are. We look at someone's clothes and call them a "bum" or a "homeless person" or a "hippie" and then quickly rely on our interpretations of those things to tell us about the things we can't see of that person. It's not a great system and it's not always valid, but it's generally effective for our general, social, purposes.

I know a guy that is the most "normal" guy you could imagine. He does everything he's supposed to do. Everything. Every problem has an immediate solution, no question about it. There is, in fact, no room for any doubt, no question without an answer, no path without a clear and identifiable conclusion. Aaaand, he's seriously messed up in the head, at times. :) For all outward appearances, this guy is "Joe Normal" yet I have never, ever, met anyone else who is like him? HOW IN THE F CAN THAT BE TRUE?

I really wish people would just stop it with all the "sex identification thing." I don't care what someone wants to do with their jangly bits. I also don't care if they want to have different jangly bits. What I do care about, though, is someone identifying themselves and then insisting that, because they have done so, the rest of the world must gift them with attributes that have nothing at all to do with their jangly bits or lack of same. (For goodness sake, can people stop filling out the "Sex" checkbox based upon what they "think" they are rather than how they were biologically born? It's not a condemnation or praise of someone's self-identity. Nobody is doing anyone any favors by trying to get anyone to congratulate them on their "choice.")

Someone having some self-identification that is thought of as "not normal" is not "special." They're not "different." They don't get to belong to some privileged group nor do they get to have their opinion about anything artificially inflated in credibility just because they happened to have sex with a goat one time and want everyone to know how the achieved some Ultimate Truth we all need to know about and understand because, after all, everyone who hasn't had sex with a goat is an ignorant savage in serious need of an education...and they're just the one to give it to us.

However, there is a serious issue in all this that has a high correlation of occurrence - Some people do, in fact, have a mental illness and do, in fact, need psychiatric help. That exists. I have, for a very long time in my life, attempted to understand this issue and have assisted in attempting to treat other human beings who are so afflicted. And, it is obvious to me that human society has a difficult time dealing with mental health issues. Why is that?

It could happen to anyone and, even if it was you, you wouldn't necessarily realize it... It is the Ultimate Boogeyman of human self-perception. Being so, that means it's something else we can all just worry about, day after day. But, I think too many people looking to define themselves, for some weird reason, have decided that they have a mental health condition in need of treatment. Well, that qualifies, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have the mental health problem that they think they have.

You're a cool guy and doesn't afraid of much... in my opinion. And, like all the rest of you, I think you're all normal folks, no matter how much you secretly want to break into my house and hump my nice rug. It is a nice rug, though... :)

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by fiksal » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 04:30

Antilogic wrote:
Sat, 9. Feb 19, 20:28
The problem comes from when people like some of the above users start to declare their normal is the "right normal". When they won't talk to people who are outside of their personal definitions, not because of their actions but because of their physical and mental being. They start to advocate for laws to oppress the "abnormals". They start to take physical action against them.
And then my own personal issues around trying to be me - which is partly anxiety and partly I think a very real fear. I don't have to go looking to come across hatred like this. It's everywhere. And not just about me. My girlfriend has hatred for who she is from her own family.

I don't get that. They watched her grow up, into the person she is now. And yet...... It's logical to them, but I could never understand it.
Life is full of people who dont care to be in other people's shoes, even among family. Unfortunately. I don't know how to understand them, so I don't.

At this point, there can come a profound advice or maybe a question to elaborate of what you are dealing with. If you want to discuss this, we can.

So, on a less traditional advice, I am sometimes envious of narcissists, borderline sociopaths. Not the full on sociopaths, just being able to go through life and to filter out people who create problems, and be always sure of oneself.
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 12:47

The simple truth is that no body is "normal", however many (most?) of us want to belong. If there is ANY universal human truth it is probably that we are deeply social creatures that crave connections with others.
Personally I think the best way to achieve this is to embrace and celebrate our differences and lack of normality and I am mistrustful of any attempts to group or segregate people, such endeavours can only sow division.

I will give one example which I think is the one I object to the most (probably because I am arguably part of the in-group in question).
"Neurotypical"
A word that has its origins in use by those on the autistic spectrum to describe people not on it, but it's also often broadened out to mean anyone not suffering any form of metal "illness".
Why don't I like it? Well firstly it's defining an "us and them". Secondly it isn't a group self defining themselves (which can be useful and empowering), it's a group specifically defining the "other" instead. Thirdly it's meaningless, we know so little about the organ inside our skulls that we can't even begin to define "normal" or "typical". Even the various names we assign to "abnormal" (such as autistic, depressive, epileptic etc) are obviously highly subjective and at best groupings assigned for clinical convenience that likely bear little relationship to anything real or causative.
Before the advent of genetics the genetic conditions I work on where lumped together in a similar way. Now we know they actually have very little to do with each other save that they affect the same organ system.

I have slightly similar feelings about "transgender" and "cisgender" but am a little more giving there as the history is rather complex and these terms emerged primarily out of the gender binary itself.
Personally I favour the term "queer" to cover all possible variations outside the pervasively normalised heterosexual gender binary, but some people actively hate that word so each to their own.
As a biologist I will make one further purely scientific point.
"Sex" is the size of your gametes, nothing else. If you have comparably large gametes you are female, comparatively small and you are male. If you do not produce gametes then arguably you have no biological "sex".
"Gender" is everything else and not necessarily linked in any way to sex.

Finally in relation to sex and gender I commend the following article to you, showing that even taking the very narrow focus of a single mammalian species (humans) the topic is more complex than you probably thought.
https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Antilogic
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Antilogic » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 15:55

Rug wrote:
Sun, 10. Feb 19, 22:32

Anti... I don't really know you from Adam, but I think you're a star. You wrote the single most memorable post I have ever read on any forum, and I know it touched a lot of us here very deeply. It may not be a bed of roses being you, but please don't even think about trying to become normal if that means changing who you are !
Thanks for this :) Pretty much couldn't reply yesterday because I was crying too much heh.
Morkonan wrote:
Sun, 10. Feb 19, 23:39
Things
I'm not sure if I fully understand your entire point. And I guess mine wasn't so much with my own troubles about being normal as it is about other people applying their own perspective of normal onto me. I'm changing my name fairly soon and thinking about work and all that around is interesting. What will happen when people find out, how will they react, etc. Will their definition of normal influence how they act?
fiksal wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 04:30

Life is full of people who dont care to be in other people's shoes, even among family. Unfortunately. I don't know how to understand them, so I don't.

At this point, there can come a profound advice or maybe a question to elaborate of what you are dealing with. If you want to discuss this, we can.
With my girlfriends family, there's little to do but be there for her when needed. Long distance relationship... can suck. She's gay, and because of that fact members of her family who known her growing up disowned or otherwise treat her poorly. It's... just eh, I don't get it.

Bishop149 wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 12:47
"Sex" is the size of your gametes, nothing else. If you have comparably large gametes you are female, comparatively small and you are male. If you do not produce gametes then arguably you have no biological "sex".
"Gender" is everything else and not necessarily linked in any way to sex.
Yes, that's where the transgender separation is coming from. I can accept that I am Male (unhappily), but I am not a "man". I can take proactive action if I desire to become more "Female", but it's a body that's gone through male puberty so lets not make any grand declarations.

I am aware that sex itself, or the understanding of it rather, is in a increased state of flux. Intersex people are becoming more understood.

Honestly the whole thing was more about, external pressure or desires of others to inflict their version of normality and how that affects those that don't meet those standards. We don't always have a reasonable and understanding perspective as such has been found in this thread.

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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 17:04

Antilogic wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 15:55
Yes, that's where the transgender separation is coming from. I can accept that I am Male (unhappily), but I am not a "man". I can take proactive action if I desire to become more "Female", but it's a body that's gone through male puberty so lets not make any grand declarations.

I am aware that sex itself, or the understanding of it rather, is in a increased state of flux. Intersex people are becoming more understood.

Honestly the whole thing was more about, external pressure or desires of others to inflict their version of normality and how that affects those that don't meet those standards. We don't always have a reasonable and understanding perspective as such has been found in this thread.
I get you, biologically I am male. Sadly I am also in large part a man, but as the my choice of words implies I do not see a wealth of merit in that particular gender identity.
I strive to be something else. I have no desire to change my body but my internal biases and external presentation sure could could use some work.
I have fully embraced changing the former because frankly its just the right thing to do, the latter however I am too scared to change (even in a minor way) for fear of derision. . . . much as you describe.
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by fiksal » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 20:37

Antilogic wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 15:55
With my girlfriends family, there's little to do but be there for her when needed. Long distance relationship... can suck. She's gay, and because of that fact members of her family who known her growing up disowned or otherwise treat her poorly. It's... just eh, I don't get it.
Apparently that sort of thing can take years. As in, with time people may slowly realize that it's not worth ruining family.

I know two families who disowned their kids. Second one being a family of my friend, who they disowned for who he married.

And that list is probably small, as I look over my social net, I can probably find more people in that same situation.
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Re: You aren't normal

Post by Morkonan » Mon, 11. Feb 19, 22:25

Antilogic wrote:
Mon, 11. Feb 19, 15:55
I'm not sure if I fully understand your entire point. And I guess mine wasn't so much with my own troubles about being normal as it is about other people applying their own perspective of normal onto me. I'm changing my name fairly soon and thinking about work and all that around is interesting. What will happen when people find out, how will they react, etc. Will their definition of normal influence how they act?
But, where's the "abnormal" here? Changing your name? They have a system in place for that, so others do it too, right? Check - Normal.

Absolutely, people might react to something you do. But, it would be friggin' abnormal if people didn't react to something you did, wouldn't it? :)If you come over here and start humping my wool rug, I'm going to "react." That you'd expect I might is "normal," right?

And, if you do something unusual or "abnormal," then so what? Don't revel in it as being "special" or be so apprehensive about something you must do, no matter how abnormal it may outwardly seem, that you resent people "reacting." People react and they should react. The main notion is that they should not negatively react to something abnormal unless it is destructive, disruptive, or harmful... If you walk naked into a grocery store to do your shopping because "That's just how I roll and you'll just have to deal with it" then you're going to "normally" get taken to the looney bin or the jail, depending upon the mood of the arresting officers.

Do no be surprised or resentful of people who react to something unusual or unexpected. Just don't. That's what people do. But, what really matters is whether or not what you're doing is harmful in some way or needlessly and negatively impacts others and if their reaction negatively impacts you. And, I don't mean that it may negatively impact their "expectations" of you, personally, either - That doesn't matter a bit. You are what matters as far as the person's who's expectations need resolution, not someone else.

Just don't change your forum NIC. I hate when people do that and it needlessly and negatively impacts my life and disrupts the society of the forum. :)

Edit:Add - On gender identity disorders, my opinion.

There are several types of people out there. There are some that get involved in this because they do, very much so, have a diagnosable gender identity disorder. Then, there are some that don't, but get so involved in such an idea that they actively seek out support and validation, often joining others who are having issues that may not even have anything to do with gender identity problems. They adopt the gestalt of the group not because of their disorder, but because of the support and self-affirmation assuming such an identity holds for them.

GID exists. It is a "true thing." But, unfortunately, many people suffer from related issues and insecurities that they are desperately seeking a label for. Without it, they can't define one of the most significant parts of their lives, so it's sure that they're going to try to find some way to define that for themselves.

And, the only way to really come to understand this is by such persons seeking out professional, qualified, help. QUALIFIED. There are far too many crappy got-my-degree-online and why-don't-you-try-out-Himalayan-Salt-and-Meditation "Counselors" and "Therapists" out there. No. People need qualified professional help when and how they need it and that means a degreed and licensed professional with a state certification and who will answer "Yes" when they ask "Have you counseled many people with this sort of problem." An MD/PHD is where to start.

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