2020 US presidential election

[Ketraar]

Yes but even wrt to Electric you said Technology not production, also consider that a lot of Tesla production also is located in Germany and China. Still its not some tech miracle since the Lithium battery tech is well know by most and just getting the Lithium itself is hard and not very environment friendly either to get. Chile, Australia, China and Argentina are said to be the major contributors for that atm.

IN any case just like with Apple, having the tech alone wont make it feasible to produce "in house", since most people will throw patriotism out the window the minute it starts costing them, so Chine will always have a leg up since it does not need to follow the same (living and social) standards. So this populist idea of "lets just go back and do it all ourselves" is not going to happen and anyone telling different is lying.

MFG

Ketraar

Edit: Ninja'd

[Mightysword]

Regarding the solar industry ... no, the US (or anyone else for that matter) hasn't been keeping up with China because it's literally impossible. For the last couple decade China basically dumped infinite amount of state money into that industry and basically drown the market. Their grow was so fast that it completely over-saturate domestic demand to the point China films cannibalized them-self, also started the practice of "product dumping" on the international market (selling the product below the production cost), I'm fairly sure a few years ago the EC files a couple lawsuits over this. This means that unless other private companies receive similar backing from their government they won't compete, and it would still be a pointless competition anyway because of how over-saturated it was. If anything, the solar industry is one of the best example to highlight China's malpractice. And if I remember correctly, specifically to the Solar market it was Europe's companies that fell victim to this practice more.

True, Trump made some attempt at 'speed bumping' the shift to green energy since he took over, but to say the US has been keeping pace with China to that point and he's responsible for us falling behind on the solar front is simply revisionist.

[Santi]

@Ketraar

In Technology Tesla is still ahead of the pack, yes the technology for electric cars is not new, something like regenerative braking come along in 1886 and is widely used in trains, same for electric motors, they already are quite efficient, it is in the integration of the whole lot, batteries, motor and power management units that Tesla is at the top, together with optimisation of the components, but other companies are closing the gap very quickly, it is a matter of throwing engineers and money at it, and pretty much now, we are starting to see a viable alternative, almost as good, to a couple of Tesla models.

You could get some production in house if you embrace robotics, automatic manufacturing processes, this is something that China has understood very well and has positioned itself as the leader in that field, it is the future of manufacturing. We could get back some in house manufacturing that way and be competitive but requires a lot of investment and government support.

Of course for any premise like "Make America Great Again" and bring back our factories, as you say, you need people to buy American products and price is for most things, the determining factor of what people buy within goods of similar characteristics. Or you rely in protectionist policies like Trump and many other countries do to safeguard key industries. That is a double edge sword and if you do not play a fair game, as Trump is finding out, it can actually damage your economy.

[Vertigo 7]

@Ketraar

In Technology Tesla is still ahead of the pack, yes the technology for electric cars is not new, something like regenerative braking come along in 1886 and is widely used in trains, same for electric motors, they already are quite efficient, it is in the integration of the whole lot, batteries, motor and power management units that Tesla is at the top, together with optimisation of the components, but other companies are closing the gap very quickly, it is a matter of throwing engineers and money at it, and pretty much now, we are starting to see a viable alternative, almost as good, to a couple of Tesla models.

You could get some production in house if you embrace robotics, automatic manufacturing processes, this is something that China has understood very well and has positioned itself as the leader in that field, it is the future of manufacturing. We could get back some in house manufacturing that way and be competitive but requires a lot of investment and government support.

Of course for any premise like "Make America Great Again" and bring back our factories, as you say, you need people to buy American products and price is for most things, the determining factor of what people buy within goods of similar characteristics. Or you rely in protectionist policies like Trump and many other countries do to safeguard key industries. That is a double edge sword and if you do not play a fair game, as Trump is finding out, it can actually damage your economy.

Electric railways have not been heavily used in the US. The vast majority of our trains are still diesel driven. Big oil and the GOP intend to keep it that way. Ergo, there's been no wide use of regenerative breaking for trains in this country. We didn't even start using hybrid diesel locomotives until 2005 and only on a few railways.

The problem with the Trump "MAGA" approach is it's trying to hold onto the past, be it through racism, or through obsolete jobs like coal mining. The common theme with post industrial revolution jobs are digital and micro technology and the vast majority of production of those components originate in Asian countries. There are no factories to bring back here because we never had them. It's a fallacy to put hopes and dreams in the 1950's work when we're in 2020. And guess what? If we do bring those factories here and start producing our own solid state components, the factories will be largely automated. The majority of this stuff can't be created by hand.

Don't get me wrong, we're good at taking components and soldering them to a board to make a dohickey or a thingamabob. Even that is more efficiently done by automation than by hand.

Either way it goes, coal is a dead end. Sure, if you're a coal miner it sucks that the only thing you know how to do has been made obsolete since we found we could produce electricity cheaper and safer with nuclear/wind/solar/hydroelectric power. But that's not a good reason to keep digging up coal, nor is that going to stop the owners of the coal mines from bringing in machinery to replace you to do it.

So what do we need? We need to train our people for the future. This reliance on unskilled labor is just a downhill slope. Every industry is seeing marked increase in automation from agriculture to IT that's taking the menial parts of jobs and streamlining them with little to no need for a human being. That's just the nature of technological advancements. So get into technology. Learn to build freaking robots. Someone is going to need to maintain them, be it through hardware or software or both.

What I'm trying to say, in so many words, is that our education system needs a serious overhaul to stop this churning out of factory workers and focus on what advances in technology is going to mean for our future and what their place in it will look like.

[Vertigo 7]

So this is funny... I'm watching the DeJoy's testimony to the Senate and Rand Paul is saying the post office needs less employees. Don't republicans love saying "Jobs jobs jobs!"?

[Mightysword]

IN any case just like with Apple, having the tech alone wont make it feasible to produce "in house", since most people will throw patriotism out the window the minute it starts costing them, so Chine will always have a leg up since it does not need to follow the same (living and social) standards. So this populist idea of "lets just go back and do it all ourselves" is not going to happen and anyone telling different is lying.

Labor cost is just the first, China has 2 other things going for it, second is the state support. The third one is what people often tend to overlook when talking about the tech industry: rare earth metal. China has something around 80% of the world total output of rare earth metal, and that's an ironclad position at any negotiation table. Note that China only sit on about 30% of the deposit, and the reason they could dominate the market like that is tied to the first 2 reason: limitless state capital injection and cheap labor. The US used to be the #1 producer for rare earth, but we had long been driven out of that market, and we simply can not prop up that industry without some section of the population going up against about it, i.e heavily subsiding private industries or the use of cheap labor (coal is not the only thing that can be mined). Unless there is a coordinate global effort as well as some technology innovation to wrestle China out of the rare earth market, anything else will only be at best superficial.

As such, even though I'm a fan of Biden I won't necessary disagree with anyone who want to call out his "Buy America" is merely a populous message ... because it probably is just that. Especially given anti-China sentiment are strong right now. And as much as I hate to say this ... I'm glad Biden tried to say it. Because voting also has the practical side to it, not just the ideology side.

[brucewarren]

It occurs to me that if the UK chancellor was to instruct the British people to "Buy British" (which is something that has been tried before btw)
it could backfire in spectacular fashion - there would be an immediate surge in sales of goods from all manner countries except for the UK,
which would lose sales accordingly.

Why do I think this might happen?

Because the moment you implement a protectionist scheme it sends out the message "Our products are so bloody awful and so overpriced
that it's necessary for government to intervene in the market."

[Vertigo 7]

It occurs to me that if the UK chancellor was to instruct the British people to "Buy British" (which is something that has been tried before btw)
it could backfire in spectacular fashion - there would be an immediate surge in sales of goods from all manner countries except for the UK,
which would lose sales accordingly.

Why do I think this might happen?

Because the moment you implement a protectionist scheme it sends out the message "Our products are so bloody awful and so overpriced
that it's necessary for government to intervene in the market."

There's the stick... most people don't give a damn where their stuff comes from, they just want it to work. The only real problem with buying overseas is issues of human rights, like Ivanka's product lines being produced in sweat shops.

It's been tried here before. Hell, Walmart, at one point in time, was all about "made in America" crap. Guess what they're selling today? Chevy and Ford, I'm sorry but their vehicles are shit, not to mention half of the vehicle components aren't even produced in the states (I guess "assembled in America" would be more appropriate). I've owned several of each over the years and they were nothing but problems. Today, I own a Toyota and it's been a damn reliable car.

Point is putting a sticker on a product and waving an American flag isn't going to do much to shape consumer drive. Most people wont be repeat customers if the products sold are crap.

[matthewfarmery]

A warning from history

https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign ... on-results

America, 1876, Presidential election between Samuel Tilden, the Democratic governor of New York, and Rutherford B. Hayes, the Republican governor of Ohio. And what happened next.

farther down, a series of war games, What ifs. So Trump will very likely plunge America into chaos. I doubt this will be handled by the supreme court, not this time. But if the 1876 is anything go by, Trump will do a lot of damage. regardless of the result.

I find the article to be an interesting read. And brings up a piece of almost forgotten history.

Those that don't remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.

[Vertigo 7]

A warning from history

https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign ... on-results

America, 1876, Presidential election between Samuel Tilden, the Democratic governor of New York, and Rutherford B. Hayes, the Republican governor of Ohio. And what happened next.

farther down, a series of war games, What ifs. So Trump will very likely plunge America into chaos. I doubt this will be handled by the supreme court, not this time. But if the 1876 is anything go by, Trump will do a lot of damage. regardless of the result.

I find the article to be an interesting read. And brings up a piece of almost forgotten history.

Those that don't remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.

Well, there's one scenario not mentioned where the people storm the white house like a zombie horde and puts an end to that wannabe aryan nation that's festered there and democracy can then resume, after a fresh coat of paint.

[notaterran]

Unfortunately, a coup by White supremacists is not out of the question. I wonder if history might repeat itself, should Trump lose the election:

For all the violent moments in United States history, the mob’s gruesome attack was unique: It was the only coup d’état ever to take place on American soil.

Link1

Link2

Link3

Link4

Keep in mind, this was before the Voting Rights Act; back then Democrats were rather comfortable with racism, and the Republican party had a liberal wing (which would be unthinkable today). After the 1960s the parties changed their alignment, and that is (more or less) how it remains today.

[Vertigo 7]

There's just not enough good ol' boys left in this country to mount an effective fighting force against the rest of this country.

There was a woman who spoke out after the first night of protests after George Floyd's murder. At the end of her speech, she said "We still just want to be equals. Be glad we don't want revenge." This after she outlined the Tulsa, OK and Rosewood, FL massacres and church bombings.

If the hillbillies try to push, the rest of us will push back and we'll make damn sure they don't get up again.

After Lincoln's assassination, congress pushed Andrew Johnson to punish the south for their rebellion. He chose not to do so. I would wager that if he had done so, the racial tension that's still plaguing us today would be vastly diminished.

[Olterin]

[...]
After Lincoln's assassination, congress pushed Andrew Johnson to punish the south for their rebellion. He chose not to do so. I would wager that if he had done so, the racial tension that's still plaguing us today would be vastly diminished.

On this note, I would just like to point out that the "punishment" route has been shown by history to not work. Biggest example is the Treaty of Versailles and the whole first half of the 20th century that followed. Sadly I can't come up with an example that actually changed society short of utter unconditional defeat: Japan after getting nuked (twice) and Germany after being bombed into literal ruins (and a bloody war that cost tens of millions their lives). So uh, on the whole, I think the forgiveness thing maybe worked better. Just saying. (Yes, I am aware this is actually a little more complicated than that)

It's an interesting election to follow on the whole, considering how unconventional the circumstances surrounding it are. Might we see a transition to a more digitalized voting mechanism in the future?

[Vertigo 7]

[...]
After Lincoln's assassination, congress pushed Andrew Johnson to punish the south for their rebellion. He chose not to do so. I would wager that if he had done so, the racial tension that's still plaguing us today would be vastly diminished.

On this note, I would just like to point out that the "punishment" route has been shown by history to not work. Biggest example is the Treaty of Versailles and the whole first half of the 20th century that followed. Sadly I can't come up with an example that actually changed society short of utter unconditional defeat: Japan after getting nuked (twice) and Germany after being bombed into literal ruins (and a bloody war that cost tens of millions their lives). So uh, on the whole, I think the forgiveness thing maybe worked better. Just saying. (Yes, I am aware this is actually a little more complicated than that)

It's an interesting election to follow on the whole, considering how unconventional the circumstances surrounding it are. Might we see a transition to a more digitalized voting mechanism in the future?

There was no forgiveness or retaliation. The south was allowed to just carry on as if nothing had happened other than they had to abolish slavery. So in place of slavery, the south passed laws to arrest blacks for vagrancy and would in turn sell their prisoners as laborers. it wasn't illegal. They weren't slaves, they were prisoners. Next came Jim Crow, and so on. Hell, policing in the south pre-civil war was nothing but white guys chasing down runaway slaves. There was no such thing as law enforcement as it exists in theory today. Remember, this is the same society that allowed 2 men to square off and shoot each other over being called a "cheater". It really is a wonder the human race has survived this long.

Congress wanted to economically ruin the south, more than it already is/was and install loyal governors. But none of that happened.

Anyway, as far as digital voting machines... I mean, I can see the appeal, but unless they're on a completely physically and logically isolated network with a unique communication protocol/OS/code and unique hardware that can't be used on any common PC, I just think it's too high of a risk to go digital with voting. I mean, sure, digital voting records, I'm all for it just to maintain a checklist of who is registered to vote and who has voted. But the ballot itself should stay paper imo so that there is no "hacking" potential.

The process as it is works. Whether you vote in person or vote by mail, your ID is checked before you get your ballot and you sign it if you vote by mail which is checked against your state issued ID.

Yes, it is possible someone could impersonate you and forge your signature to vote in your name. But they'll only be able to do that once and then have to use someone else's ID and forge their signature, as well as intercept the ballots in the postal mail unless they change your mailing address too, and repeat that over and over again like a million times to have any impact on a vote. It's just not practical and every time someone has tried to cheat, they've gotten caught.

Throw digital voting into the mix and it'll become a free for all.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

I'm so much against digital voting for security reasons I almost can't believe how many people are endorsing that.

Remember, this is the same society that allowed 2 men to square off and shoot each other over being called a "cheater". It really is a wonder the human race has survived this long.

In Italy, we had something called "delitto d'onore" (honor killing). Basically, if you killed a man because he had an affair with your wife, or if you killed your wife because she had an affair with another man, you had a discount on your sentence.
I checked: this law has been abolished in 1981.