2020 US presidential election

[Vertigo 7]

Nor do I .

Dems have to get the vote out.
Dems have have to convert some previous GoP support.
Voter suppression has to be a real fear.
And then there's the potential wonkiness of the electoral college system.

This ain't over yet.

you're absolutely right and its all being hit. Dejoy is even being summoned to appear before congress and there's a high likelihood that he's going to face some criminal charges, if for nothing else than the millions he's making from screwing up the post office.

[Mightysword]

Dont get me wrong, I hope you are right, but I dont think this is a done deal by a long shot.

I would say some feeling of 'fear' that Trump can still win in November is healthy at this point, much better than the landslide confidence in 2016 at least.

[felter]

And all I'm saying is don't count your chickens before they're hatched. That's what happened four years ago, Clinton just couldn't loose. It's what the Brexit remainers did, they thought hey we can't loose. Until the 4th of November comes around, there is still a chance that Trump could win. Remember he is not afraid to break the law to get his way, and he is in a better position for doing that now than he was 4 years ago and he did it then and got away with it.

[Mightysword]

I would add something, he may still win even without any shenanigan involved. Now I know i have a history of not being a fan of the media, but what I'm about to say is not an attack on it, not this time at least.

I think for most us 'net citizen', it's easy to fall into a sense what we perceive as 'common' knowledge. Tbh, this is something I just realized myself very recently. I'm a white collar who normally spend the majority of waking hours at work with co-workers who mostly are as internet accessible as I am, and in my own time I also spend a lot of that on the net. While I'm always aware of the 'different in opinion', I had rarely thought about different 'exposure'. After half-a-year of staying home thanks to this pandemic, even though working remotely, the majority of my interaction has been with more immediate acquaintance ... who are mostly blue collars. And it dawned on me (again, just recently) that within my immediate community I'm like ... one of the few, if not the ONLY one who have net access.

My closest example living next to me: my dad. He doesn't really do English, so he drank none of the Kool-aid pouring by either side. Yes he knows the pandemic is bad, but despite my best effort to tell him the Government **** up this time, he doesn't seem to hold it accountable. (I think another similar example on here is ... Pkj's mom?) Don't get me wrong, it's not like we had an argument and he was defending Trump, it's more like 'it is what is it, this is fate no one can do anything about it'. I'm fairly sure he will vote Trump in November, 'cause like I said Vietnam vet like him has a traditional bias in favor of Republican. Also, remember how Trump sent a personal message with the previous $1200 check? While someone like me found it cringe to say the least, but guess what, objectively that was a genius move on Trump, it totally worked on my dad. Now think about it, that check went to the majority of Americans, even if only 1/4 of recipients were susceptible to it, it would have an effect that not even a year of media campaign can hope to achieve.

And no, please don't go around and label my dad as some kind of white supremacist devil, he's as cut off from politic as a monk living deep in the mountain. And that's just one example, I'm telling you I'm surrounded by similar. Even with native American who has English as first language, or people who're not that old, they are simple people who are fairly cut off from the 'passion of the internet', they just carry a different opinions than the usual common denominators we often take for granted. It's almost scary that as I go around a interact with 'my community', it feels almost like a complete different world to the one I've been living in the past 10 years!

The internet itself is like one gigantic echo chamber, it may gather a lot of people, but the # still pale comparing to the # actually out-here. And even that echo is not of one voice, but further divided into various sub-room. What I realized is that despite how popular, or common we (net citizen) think, there is a fairly good chance we'll run into more people who doesn't think like us than think the same as us if we walk around. I don't know if that favor a side specifically, but one I think I can say there is sufficient of these "wild cards" to toss the election either way despite what the polls may suggest.

[Vertigo 7]

I would add something, he may still win even without any shenanigan involved. Now I know i have a history of not being a fan of the media, but what I'm about to say is not an attack on it, not this time at least.

I think for most us 'net citizen', it's easy to fall into a sense what we perceive as 'common' knowledge. Tbh, this is something I just realized myself very recently. I'm a white collar who normally spend the majority of waking hours at work with co-workers who mostly are as internet accessible as I am, and in my own time I also spend a lot of that on the net. While I'm always aware of the 'different in opinion', I had rarely thought about different 'exposure'. After half-a-year of staying home thanks to this pandemic, even though working remotely, the majority of my interaction has been with more immediate acquaintance ... who are mostly blue collars. And it dawned on me (again, just recently) that within my immediate community I'm like ... one of the few, if not the ONLY one who have net access.

My closest example living next to me: my dad. He doesn't really do English, so he drank none of the Kool-aid pouring by either side. Yes he knows the pandemic is bad, but despite my best effort to tell him the Government **** up this time, he doesn't seem to hold it accountable. (I think another similar example on here is ... Pkj's mom?) Don't get me wrong, it's not like we had an argument and he was defending Trump, it's more like 'it is what is it, this is fate no one can do anything about it'. I'm fairly sure he will vote Trump in November, 'cause like I said Vietnam vet like him has a traditional bias in favor of Republican. Also, remember how Trump sent a personal message with the previous $1200 check? While someone like me found it cringe to say the least, but guess what, objectively that was a genius move on Trump, it totally worked on my dad. Now think about it, that check went to the majority of Americans, even if only 1/4 of recipients were susceptible to it, it would have an effect that not even a year of media campaign can hope to achieve.

And no, please don't go around and label my dad as some kind of white supremacist devil, he's as cut off from politic as a monk living deep in the mountain. And that's just one example, I'm telling you I'm surrounded by similar. Even with native American who has English as first language, or people who're not that old, they are simple people who are fairly cut off from the 'passion of the internet', they just carry a different opinions than the usual common denominators we often take for granted. It's almost scary that as I go around a interact with 'my community', it feels almost like a complete different world to the one I've been living in the past 10 years!

The internet itself is like one gigantic echo chamber, it may gather a lot of people, but the # still pale comparing to the # actually out-here. And even that echo is not of one voice, but further divided into various sub-room. What I realized is that despite how popular, or common we (net citizen) think, there is a fairly good chance we'll run into more people who doesn't think like us than think the same as us if we walk around. I don't know if that favor a side specifically, but one I think I can say there is sufficient of these "wild cards" to toss the election either way despite what the polls may suggest.

I'm confused. A few months ago, you said your dad was royalty from Vietnam, then you said he was a soldier that was imprisoned, then he was a factory worker, now he's a monk? It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you can't keep your own stories straight.

[Santi]

I know Covid has been eclipsing many issues, and to be honest I am not following that much the election campaign, so not sure if Biden has commented on the many open fronts that Trump has, and what he will do about them. Issues like immigration, China dispute, Paris accords, World Trade Organization etc...

I think these could weight heavily in people's minds when casting their vote and could be a significant factor for Trump.

I hope Trump does not get elected again, not only because it is not a good president, but also because of the whole circus surrounding his presidency, where in the front stage is Trump, on the right stage is the Press and on the left stage is the Democrats.

[Vertigo 7]

I know Covid has been eclipsing many issues, and to be honest I am not following that much the election campaign, so not sure if Biden has commented on the many open fronts that Trump has, and what he will do about them. Issues like immigration, China dispute, Paris accords, World Trade Organization etc...

I think these could weight heavily in people's minds when casting their vote and could be a significant factor for Trump.

I hope Trump does not get elected again, not only because it is not a good president, but also because of the whole circus surrounding his presidency, where in the front stage is Trump, on the right stage is the Press and on the left stage is the Democrats.

Yes he has. Covid aside, Biden's #1 priority is to reverse course on everything Trump has done with our foreign dealings. China, North Korea, and Russia go back to being the bad guys, and work on repairing relationships and trust with our allies.

[Santi]

I hope Biden elaborates more on those issues, let's remember that one of the reasons Trump got elected was his "do something" attitude towards those issues. Reversing policies against China for example is going to look too much like surrender. Also immigration with the loss of jobs due to Covid, is surely going to be exploited from those who are against it. The classic "they are taking our jobs etc...", even if they are one of the groups that are going to get hit harder due to the pandemic.

For me, one of the reasons I do not trust the polls, is that supporting Trump is such a tabu, that people may not be honest in their intention of vote.

[Vertigo 7]

I hope Biden elaborates more on those issues, let's remember that one of the reasons Trump got elected was his "do something" attitude towards those issues. Reversing policies against China for example is going to look too much like surrender. Also immigration with the loss of jobs due to Covid, is surely going to be exploited from those who are against it. The classic "they are taking our jobs etc...", even if they are one of the groups that are going to get hit harder due to the pandemic.

For me, one of the reasons I do not trust the polls, is that supporting Trump is such a tabu, that people may not be honest in their intention of vote.

Well, I really don't see what's to debate on the policies. Trump cost us billions getting in a trade war with China and then gave ol' pooh bear a pat on the back when he attacked protesters in Hong Kong. But Biden has been pushing a "buy American" platform that doesn't involve screwing over our own farmers. Trump didn't understand or care how tariffs worked, but Biden clearly does.

The "dey tuk r jerbs!" crowd are just a bunch of racists, so, why should anyone care what they have to say? I mean seriously, how bad do you have to suck at your job to get it taken by an immigrant that has less experience and probably no references to speak of?

[Santi]

The "Buy American", is a proposed "$400bn increase in government spending on US-made products, in addition to spending $300bn on the research and development of new technologies, including electric vehicles and 5G networks".

While it is a plan, it does not address the imbalances of trade with China, or the issues regarding intellectual property and even less, American access to Chinese markets.

Electric vehicles and 5G, why those two? America is the leader on those two technologies. Sounds like betting on a horse that already win the race.

This is the kind of stuff that allowed Trump to be elected, "Government spending on US made products", seriously, what that means? Sure,just with weapons systems you spend that and more, all made in America.

Generic statements like that were the downfall of Hillary, he should know better.

[Vertigo 7]

It's not a generic statement. There's a massive plan he's written that's I dunno how many pages long. "Buy American" is just short hand.

[Ketraar]

Electric vehicles and 5G, why those two? America is the leader on those two technologies. Sounds like betting on a horse that already win the race.

What? Can you cite your sources please?

MFG

Ketraar

[RegisterMe]

Electric vehicles and 5G, why those two? America is the leader on those two technologies. Sounds like betting on a horse that already win the race.

What? Can you cite your sources please?

MFG

Ketraar

The US has no 5G industry at all. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Pretty much the only non-Chinese (ie Huawei) 5G companies are Ericsson and Nokia. They're behind Huawei in terms of tech and deployment (and they're European).

[Santi]

Regarding 5g I am totally wrong, I was thinking of Qualcomm, but after Ketraar comment I informed myself a bit and it is as RegisterMe points out, and the USA has zero industry regarding 5g, it is all done by other countries.

So I am wrong and stand corrected.

Regarding electric cars, Tesla is the leading manufacturer of electric cars by sales: https://www.statista.com/statistics/541 ... facturers/

And cumulative sales: https://electrek.co/2019/12/06/tesla-wo ... maker-byd/

And BYD numbers, the second producer and seller after Tesla, includes plug in hybrids and other vehicles like buses and trucks.

But it is a very fast evolving and very competitive market, money is in Volkswagen to be the leader in just a few years, they have a very ambitious plan to have an electric version of every car in their lineup. Tesla could fight back by releasing a "cheap" electric car, but I do not think it has time and will be overtaken.

[felter]

As far as I'm aware Ericsson and Nokia's 5G is based on Huawei technology, as Huawei released all the IP rights on 5G when Trump started acting against them, so anyone can use the Huawei's 5g without Huawei's involvement. Electric car technology is more European and Asian, South Korea and Japan rather than America. America was competing in the solar industry, they were pretty much keeping pace with China but Trump put a stop to that and screwed that industry up in America, going for fossil energy over green energy, so I think America could have potential in solar in the future. That man has really screwed America over and put them years behind in a lot of things. America should be up there competing with others and they were going that way until Trump took over, his tariffs and embargoes just killed off so many opportunities for so many American companies.

[Ketraar]

Yes but even wrt to Electric you said Technology not production, also consider that a lot of Tesla production also is located in Germany and China. Still its not some tech miracle since the Lithium battery tech is well know by most and just getting the Lithium itself is hard and not very environment friendly either to get. Chile, Australia, China and Argentina are said to be the major contributors for that atm.

IN any case just like with Apple, having the tech alone wont make it feasible to produce "in house", since most people will throw patriotism out the window the minute it starts costing them, so Chine will always have a leg up since it does not need to follow the same (living and social) standards. So this populist idea of "lets just go back and do it all ourselves" is not going to happen and anyone telling different is lying.

MFG

Ketraar

Edit: Ninja'd

[Mightysword]

Regarding the solar industry ... no, the US (or anyone else for that matter) hasn't been keeping up with China because it's literally impossible. For the last couple decade China basically dumped infinite amount of state money into that industry and basically drown the market. Their grow was so fast that it completely over-saturate domestic demand to the point China films cannibalized them-self, also started the practice of "product dumping" on the international market (selling the product below the production cost), I'm fairly sure a few years ago the EC files a couple lawsuits over this. This means that unless other private companies receive similar backing from their government they won't compete, and it would still be a pointless competition anyway because of how over-saturated it was. If anything, the solar industry is one of the best example to highlight China's malpractice. And if I remember correctly, specifically to the Solar market it was Europe's companies that fell victim to this practice more.

True, Trump made some attempt at 'speed bumping' the shift to green energy since he took over, but to say the US has been keeping pace with China to that point and he's responsible for us falling behind on the solar front is simply revisionist.

[Santi]

@Ketraar

In Technology Tesla is still ahead of the pack, yes the technology for electric cars is not new, something like regenerative braking come along in 1886 and is widely used in trains, same for electric motors, they already are quite efficient, it is in the integration of the whole lot, batteries, motor and power management units that Tesla is at the top, together with optimisation of the components, but other companies are closing the gap very quickly, it is a matter of throwing engineers and money at it, and pretty much now, we are starting to see a viable alternative, almost as good, to a couple of Tesla models.

You could get some production in house if you embrace robotics, automatic manufacturing processes, this is something that China has understood very well and has positioned itself as the leader in that field, it is the future of manufacturing. We could get back some in house manufacturing that way and be competitive but requires a lot of investment and government support.

Of course for any premise like "Make America Great Again" and bring back our factories, as you say, you need people to buy American products and price is for most things, the determining factor of what people buy within goods of similar characteristics. Or you rely in protectionist policies like Trump and many other countries do to safeguard key industries. That is a double edge sword and if you do not play a fair game, as Trump is finding out, it can actually damage your economy.

[Vertigo 7]

@Ketraar

In Technology Tesla is still ahead of the pack, yes the technology for electric cars is not new, something like regenerative braking come along in 1886 and is widely used in trains, same for electric motors, they already are quite efficient, it is in the integration of the whole lot, batteries, motor and power management units that Tesla is at the top, together with optimisation of the components, but other companies are closing the gap very quickly, it is a matter of throwing engineers and money at it, and pretty much now, we are starting to see a viable alternative, almost as good, to a couple of Tesla models.

You could get some production in house if you embrace robotics, automatic manufacturing processes, this is something that China has understood very well and has positioned itself as the leader in that field, it is the future of manufacturing. We could get back some in house manufacturing that way and be competitive but requires a lot of investment and government support.

Of course for any premise like "Make America Great Again" and bring back our factories, as you say, you need people to buy American products and price is for most things, the determining factor of what people buy within goods of similar characteristics. Or you rely in protectionist policies like Trump and many other countries do to safeguard key industries. That is a double edge sword and if you do not play a fair game, as Trump is finding out, it can actually damage your economy.

Electric railways have not been heavily used in the US. The vast majority of our trains are still diesel driven. Big oil and the GOP intend to keep it that way. Ergo, there's been no wide use of regenerative breaking for trains in this country. We didn't even start using hybrid diesel locomotives until 2005 and only on a few railways.

The problem with the Trump "MAGA" approach is it's trying to hold onto the past, be it through racism, or through obsolete jobs like coal mining. The common theme with post industrial revolution jobs are digital and micro technology and the vast majority of production of those components originate in Asian countries. There are no factories to bring back here because we never had them. It's a fallacy to put hopes and dreams in the 1950's work when we're in 2020. And guess what? If we do bring those factories here and start producing our own solid state components, the factories will be largely automated. The majority of this stuff can't be created by hand.

Don't get me wrong, we're good at taking components and soldering them to a board to make a dohickey or a thingamabob. Even that is more efficiently done by automation than by hand.

Either way it goes, coal is a dead end. Sure, if you're a coal miner it sucks that the only thing you know how to do has been made obsolete since we found we could produce electricity cheaper and safer with nuclear/wind/solar/hydroelectric power. But that's not a good reason to keep digging up coal, nor is that going to stop the owners of the coal mines from bringing in machinery to replace you to do it.

So what do we need? We need to train our people for the future. This reliance on unskilled labor is just a downhill slope. Every industry is seeing marked increase in automation from agriculture to IT that's taking the menial parts of jobs and streamlining them with little to no need for a human being. That's just the nature of technological advancements. So get into technology. Learn to build freaking robots. Someone is going to need to maintain them, be it through hardware or software or both.

What I'm trying to say, in so many words, is that our education system needs a serious overhaul to stop this churning out of factory workers and focus on what advances in technology is going to mean for our future and what their place in it will look like.

[Vertigo 7]

So this is funny... I'm watching the DeJoy's testimony to the Senate and Rand Paul is saying the post office needs less employees. Don't republicans love saying "Jobs jobs jobs!"?