Another dumb physics question from RM

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Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 2. May 19, 03:23

The other night I watched Brian Cox's recent series on iPlayer. Specifically this episode about gravity - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... -3-falling . In a non-mathematical way I am comfortable up until we get to black holes (like, I guess, many other people). Prior to watching this programme I thought I was as comfortable with black holes as somebody who isn't mathematical enough to really be able to discuss these things could be.

Then Cox said something that was new to me. He didn't stop at saying that matter / energy were attracted to black holes (gravity), and the closer to the event horizon the matter / energy got the more it was attracted, and the closer it got the more it formed an accretion disk (see more here) until it got so close and the attraction was so great that there was no escape. Hence the black in black holes. No escape. The analogy was that you're swimming in a river, it's nice, it's peaceful, the sun is shining, the water is warm. You can swim at 4km / hour, and the river is flowing downstream at 3km / hour. Then you go downstream. Now you can still swim at 4km / hour, but the river is flowing at 3.5km / hour. Then you're somewhere it's flowing at 3.75km / hour. Then 3.99km / hour. Then you're just at the cusp of the waterfall, you can only fall, there's no way back up.

Cox said that not only did the matter / energy / gravity / attraction thing happen, but that space time itself was "sucked into", or "flowed into" the black hole. As I understood it the water was his metaphor for "space time". Space time flowing >>into<< a black hole.

So I guess my questions are:-

1. Did he actually say what I thought he did?
2. Did I interpret what he said correctly?
3. If I did... what does that mean?
.....
4. Does space time "enter / or be consumed" by a black hole?
4a. If it does what does that mean for conservation of energy / information?
4b. Does it occur at the event horizon, or "at the singularity"?
5. If it's correct that Cox's view is that black holes are "consuming" space time, what does that mean for our current theories eg special / general relativity and quantum mechanics (and quantum gravity and VSL and string theory and GUTs and....)?
(6. Even more nebulous, and even harder to describe using a non-math language..... what's at the bottom of the waterfall?)

I've google, and tried reddit (reddit is a great resource for many things but.... not for cosmology / astrophysics - those subs have been taken over by... people who aren't physicists :roll: )

Cheers in advance, and hopefully using my magic forum foo for calling Red Assassin :).
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by berth » Thu, 2. May 19, 09:54

I haven't seen the show but here's my two denarii:

Gravity is an inverse-square law, which means that the attraction between two objects is (inversely) proportional to the square of the distance between them - closer together means stronger attraction. Hence the concept of the "gravity well".

The concept of the black hole grew out of General Relativity as an extreme case.

I think the short answer to most of your questions is "dunno mate". Mathematically, the singularity is a point of infinite density, which would therefore mean infinite gravity, which is silly.

Once you cross the event horizon, our understanding breaks down and it is going to be tricky to shed any light on what's going on if no information is escaping from the other side.

It could be a gateway to another universe but surviving the passage would be challenging.

As Rush put it:
"Atomised at the core
Or through the astral door?"
:)

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by CBJ » Thu, 2. May 19, 10:26

I'm not a physicist either, but from my understanding space-time is "sucked in" in the sense that it, and its properties, are distorted by the black hole, but not "sucked in" in the sense that it's actually moving into it.

I find the whole thing easier to visualise if you remove one of the space dimensions and demonstrate the effect of gravity using a flat sheet of something rubbery. An object placed on the sheet dents its and causes objects nearby to roll towards it. A black hole is where the sheet is indented so far that it's effectively a hole in the sheet (though you have to, um, stretch the analogy a little here, to keep the sheet indented infinitely around the hole rather than having it ping back to being flat). If you can mentally project that back into three spatial dimensions (and apply similar stretching effects to the time dimension too) then, at least as far as I understand it, that's pretty much what you have in the real universe.

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 2. May 19, 12:15

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 2. May 19, 10:26
I find the whole thing easier to visualise if you remove one of the space dimensions and demonstrate the effect of gravity using a flat sheet of something rubbery. An object placed on the sheet dents its and causes objects nearby to roll towards it. A black hole is where the sheet is indented so far that it's effectively a hole in the sheet (though you have to, um, stretch the analogy a little here, to keep the sheet indented infinitely around the hole rather than having it ping back to being flat). If you can mentally project that back into three spatial dimensions (and apply similar stretching effects to the time dimension too) then, at least as far as I understand it, that's pretty much what you have in the real universe.
Yeah, that's how I visualise it too, and why I questioned my interpretation of what he had to say. Because I understood him to mean that the "rubber sheet itself" also flows into the "hole".
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by Bishop149 » Thu, 2. May 19, 12:42

CBJ wrote:
Thu, 2. May 19, 10:26
I'm not a physicist either, but from my understanding space-time is "sucked in" in the sense that it, and its properties, are distorted by the black hole, but not "sucked in" in the sense that it's actually moving into it.
I have always visulaise it as others have described, space-time as the "fabric" of the universe, bent, stretched and distorted but not something that can actual "move".
I guess another interpretation could be that, as far as we know / can guess, all the rules governing space-time completely break down beyond an event horizon. Thus, in some sense at least singularities destroy space-time. . . as we know it at least.
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by Ronald Sandoval » Thu, 2. May 19, 12:46

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by Chips » Fri, 3. May 19, 00:29

If he used the term "sucked in" he should be ostracised by the Science community :D

There's no such thing as "sucked".

Other than that: 1) Didn't watch it 2) Don't think it'd have helped if I had :D :D

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by red assassin » Fri, 3. May 19, 19:51

With the caveats that I haven't watched it, and have had a very long couple of weeks:

I think what he's getting at is a handwavy explanation of how spacetime behaves around black holes in general relativity. As you're no doubt aware, in GR gravity is the warping of spacetime. In Newtonian mechanics, the path of an object in the vicinity of a massy object is altered by the gravitational force, which attracts any mass to any other mass. In general relativity, you get the same result by instead treating the situation as this: the object travels in a straight line (where a straight line is defined as "the shortest distance between two points" - technically in GR this is called a geodesic), but mass warps spacetime itself, such that the object's straight line is curved when projected onto 3D space. If you apply a force in some way - with a rocket engine, for example - you can of course take a different path to the straight one.

Now, as you approach a black hole, spacetime gets more and more warped. In a Newtonian sense, the gravitational force just gets bigger and bigger, but you have to be careful considering black holes in a Newtonian sense because it's by definition one of the times Newtonian mechanics can't help you any more. Specifically, as you approach the black hole and the curve increases, some interesting things start to happen:

At 3 times the Schwarzschild radius (aka the radius of the event horizon), you hit the innermost stable circular orbit (ISCO): this is the closest you can put a circular orbit and get a result that looks like what you think of as an orbit. At 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius, you hit the innermost bound circular orbit (IBCO). In the region inside the ISCO but outside the IBCO, you can still orbit the black hole, but you get orbits that are, to use the technical term, super weird:
Image
Here the extreme curvature of spacetime allows you to produce some very strange straight paths. These orbits are also highly unstable.

On the IBCO boundary, you also have the photon sphere - this is the point at which even a massless photon falls into orbit of the black hole. Stood at exactly this distance, you can see the back of your own head because the photons will orbit the black hole and return to your eyes. Again, this is unstable, so photons will eventually leave or fall in. You will also not see anything but blackness from below you at this point, because any photon which crosses this boundary will fall into the black hole.

Within the IBCO, there no longer exist any straight lines through spacetime that do not eventually fall into it. You can still escape this region if you have a sufficiently powerful rocket (where "sufficient" is implausibly big for anything more than the tiniest step past the boundary), but any unpowered object travelling on a geodesic will end up in the black hole.

Once you cross the event horizon, spacetime is sufficiently warped that there no longer exist any paths at all which get any further from the black hole. When we say you can't escape a black hole, it's not because there's a really big gravitational force, it's because there is literally no path out, no matter what you do. I suspect that this is what he's trying to analogise, but it's hard because the idea that there exists no path back to the place you just came from is weird.

All of the above is only strictly true for a non-rotating black hole - for a rotating one, and it seems like most are very rotating, the distances change depending on whether you're travelling with or against the rotation, due to frame dragging.

tl;dr black holes are super weird.
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 3. May 19, 20:14

I'm going to need to read that more than once, and think it about it quite a lot, but thank you. Awesome post, I appreciate it :) .

EDIT: And yeah, Chips, he certainly did not say "sucked". That's on me :oops: .
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by Morkonan » Sat, 4. May 19, 01:27

RegisterMe wrote:
Thu, 2. May 19, 03:23
...stuff..
My two preparatory coppers:

The best broad illustration of gravity is that of the classic "rubber sheet" where something that has mass "deforms" the stretched out rubber sheet. It causes it to "warp" around the mass, right? Forget the bit of stuff rolling to the center of a sheet because it's finite and stretched across a frame or something, just remember that a heavy billiard-ball will make a dent in a rubber sheet and if another one is placed on that sheet near itt, those dents might interact to make both the billiard-balls "fall towards each other."

A good description of two objects interacting through gravity is that they are actually falling towards each other. OK, so, what causes them to "fall?" That's the warped fabric of the rubber sheet causing that and that rubber sheet is "space-time." Anything that has mass effects that sheet. Yet, everything, even stuff that doesn't have a definable rest mass is effected by it as well. A photon, like a radio signal or a lighwave, has to travel on it too even if it doesn't have a rest mass or can't have a rest mass. So, when we look through a telescope and see a "lensing effect" that's evidence that some mass (pretty large to be detectable by us) between us and the light we're looking at has bent or "warped" the spacetime around it. That light still has to travel on that sheet of space-time - There's no place else that it could have gone. So, as far as the light is concerned, it's still traveling on in a straight line... cause "straight" is defined by the sheet of space-time. But, by virtue of our point of view looking through the telescope, we know something "warped it."
1. Did he actually say what I thought he did?
Obviously, Redassasin knows the particulars much more intimately. I would say in response to your question "Kinda."

But, it can't just eat up stuff and hide it or erase it forever from the rest of the Universe. That would be bad. What I think is being alluded to here may be matched up more closely with the "falling" analogy of the rubber-sheet illustration. What is happening can be explained by a warped bit of space-time that gets warped so extremely that, in effect, there is nothing that can fall out of such an extreme depression. If you, for instance, dumped a wrecking ball on a big rubber sheet, it'd cause quite a dent, right? It'd be a pretty deep "hole" formation in that sheet and at its edges it would be very, very, "steep." OK, so now you're standing beside that big wrecking ball in a "well" surrounded by a stretched rubber sheet... about a hundred feet deep.

In your hand is a ping-pong ball. A nice light little bit of compressed and formed cellulose. You decide to throw that ball as hard as you can so that it shoots out the top of the depression you're in and is free, once again! And... you can't. A hundred feet is a darn long way to throw a ping-pong ball. In fact, try as you might with all your available energy, you just can't do it. The air resistance is the factor, of course, but here it's just that the ping-pong ball does not have enough velocity to escape the bottom of the hole.

Imagine now that everything is that rubber-sheet and there is no "air resistance." Instead, the particle has to climb up that framework to escape and there is no amount of energy available to give it the velocity necessary to climb up that space-time and escape the doom of the wrecking ball. That constant warping of the sheet by the ball and the constant "falling" bit associated with interactions involving gravity can be somewhat equated to a constant "drain" on the fabric of spacetime. It's not necessarily "static" is what he may be trying to say. (Though, he's smart an' I is ignorant. :) Think of a continuous "drain" as water is moving around the hole in a sink, or being "dragged" there in some extreme cases.
2. Did I interpret what he said correctly?
Kinda, but I don't know exactly what he meant and haven't seen the show. The important thing is, though, that there comes a point when no force in the Universe, that is known, can give anything enough velocity to escape a black hole, in this situation, because "The Law Says No."
3. If I did... what does that mean?
As far as I know, he's not saying anything different than what we have already expected. ie: Nothing revolutionary, just an interesting way to re-interpret it for the viewer.
4. Does space time "enter / or be consumed" by a black hole?
The black hole rests on the same fabric of space-time that we do, so yes space-time "enters" it. Is it "consumed?" That all depends on how you define "consumed." As far as we are concerned, where we are outside of the black hole, it doesn't really matter just so long as it's not permanent. (IF space-time is considered, by itself with no further embellishment, "information." If it somehow doesn't exist... then the black hole can eat its fill and it doesn't matter... :) )
4a. If it does what does that mean for conservation of energy / information?
Nothing, really. Not unless he's proposing something new. See the famous/infamous topic of T'Hooft, Susskind and Hawking on Black Holes and information theory, holographic universe, etc.. Susskind's book, "The Black Hole War" is a great, accessible, read.

A vid on the controversy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR3Msi1YeXQ
4b. Does it occur at the event horizon, or "at the singularity"?
The Event Horizon. The "singularity" is just a point at which, inside the black hole, everything we think we know fails to describe it in keeping with the laws we think we know that enabled us to formulate the ways to describe how to figure out how to describe it... IOW - It's defined as a "Singularity" and that presents itself to us, with our current understanding, as a type of infinitely dense point. But, it could be a lonely whale looking for a petunia bush for all we know. ie: What we know moves from "known" to "unknown" because nothing we can think up can be brought away from collapsing into nonsensical infinities because we just "don't know yet." So, it's a "singularity" in our understanding of the phenomenon that can't be normalized out someway.
5. If it's correct that Cox's view is that black holes are "consuming" space time, what does that mean for our current theories eg special / general relativity and quantum mechanics (and quantum gravity and VSL and string theory and GUTs and....)?
No clue. Not as if I'm qualified to render an opinion in the first place, but I'd have to understand what he was trying to say. I don't know the maths, either, beyond simple stuffs. (Even then, I'd have to look up some basic formulae and couldn't tell you a darn thing about anything more complex than a Schwarzschild radius for xx mass of y material given z.)

Don't even with "String Theory" yet. :)

What "would" the implication be? Well, that depends - What if space-time is continually generated? Given the fact that the Universe is expanding what is causing that? Energy, certainly, right? Okiedokie, how is the energy doing that? After the Big Bang and period of rapid expansion, no matter what one thinks or doesn't think there, did we just get one serving of "spacetime" and that's all we can have 'cause we're full... or not?

"Spacetime" isn't an actual "thing" as far as I understand it to be. We visualize it as such and manipulate it as such, but AFAIK it's a theoretical construct. It's not really directly analogous to a "rubber sheet." That's more in line with the Higg's Field reaction to the mass and the consequences of the message carrying Higg's Particle saying "Hey, there's matter here so do something why don'tcha." But, "gravity" (the result we measure coming out of that reaction) interacts with all this stuff like "space" and "time." And, everything else seems to be based on this interaction.

That's pretty much my easy limit on the understanding of "what" space-time is.
(6. Even more nebulous, and even harder to describe using a non-math language..... what's at the bottom of the waterfall?)
A stream? Not so far-fetched according to some. An infinitely dense point that continually pinches itself off from the rest of the Universe? A much scarier proposition.

Note: There are some very different things going when comparing rotating and non-rotating black holes as redassasin pointed out. Size matters too. For instance, for a small rapidly rotating black hole, one's fate is a lot more... twisted and nasty. Torsion forces would rip you to shreds long before you got near enough to appreciate how neato it all looked. The same goes with a number of other very dense, very dangerous, and very rapidly rotating stellar objects. The kicker is that for the really large rotating black holes? Well, in some cases, if one brought with one enough energy, one may able to intelligently manuever out... even without having to cheat. For nonrotating or small, rapidly spinning, black holes that wouldn't likely be possible. Either way - A Black Hole of any sort is likely a one-way trip without science-fiction kicking in. ("One Way" being loosely described as "what we'd worry about for an extremely short period of time." Or for "forever", depending on your point of view. If your name is "Alice", you're probably screwed no matter what the physicists are talking about. :) )
I've google, and tried reddit (reddit is a great resource for many things but.... not for cosmology / astrophysics - those subs have been taken over by... people who aren't physicists :roll: )
Physorg forums are where you want to go. They don't allow psuedoscience in their science threads.

Quora is good for responses from those who's bona fides have been authenticated. Bona fides authentication is, I agree, important. (That's why I always have to say "I know nothing" because, compared to someone who deals with this stuff and related materials, I don't know squat. :) )

Sticking with .edu links and .edu Youtube channels is good, too. Susskind's lecture series on a variety of things, including this one and the "Physics for Presidents" series, IIRC, is a good place to sit back and listen to complicated things being simplified. He's a better presenter/lecturer than many in his field. (He's big in String Theory, too, if you like that kinda stuff.)

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by RegisterMe » Sat, 4. May 19, 01:41

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... -3-falling

51.20

start from there

EDIT: Changed the time stop, more precision is always good :)
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by berth » Sat, 4. May 19, 01:57

Thought I hit "submit" before but it's gone so..

@Red Assassin

What do the bracketed number in the diagrams represent? And E? Ellipticity? If so, of what?

I studied some Special Relativity some years ago - the maths is surprisingly straightforward but the conclusions are equally surprisingly counter-intuitive :)

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by Morkonan » Sat, 4. May 19, 02:18

berth wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 01:57
@Red Assassin

What do the bracketed number in the diagrams represent? And E? Ellipticity? If so, of what?

I studied some Special Relativity some years ago - the maths is surprisingly straightforward but the conclusions are equally surprisingly counter-intuitive :)
Not directed at me, but I like riddles... E would either be energy or napier's constant I guess? The coordinates look like coordinates for bounding the region or starting point. ie: a particle with energy (velocity?) starting at x,y,z perhaps with all available paths then illustrated within that range. Perhaps the "E", since it never reaches "1" is the Expected result. ie: The particle escapes at 1, does not escape at less than 1.
AH! THAT GUY!

Yeah, I've seen a few shows with him on them and such. Now, I am not surprised. I am "not even a novice." I greatly enjoy speculative cosmology. :) I am an enthusiastic "fan" of science. I really love all that cool physics stuff and try, through flubbering and floundering attempts, to understand and grasp what I can.

But, there has been more than one occasion where I have seen this guy imply something that is incorrect or misleading. It happened on enough occasions that when I have seen him hosting a new show on some channel or something on youtube, I specifically don't pay much attention to it. I don't have anything against him, personally, just that he has said some stuff that he was, perhaps, trying to translate for a lay person like myself. But, the instances that turned me of where of him telling whoppers to sensationalize something that didn't need any assistance to be sensational. :) My two coppers. (I should probably stop talking or everyone will know how dumb I am...;) )

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by RegisterMe » Sat, 4. May 19, 02:32

Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 02:18
AH! THAT GUY!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Cox_(physicist)
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 4. May 19, 10:22

Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 01:27
But, it can't just eat up stuff and hide it or erase it forever from the rest of the Universe. That would be bad.
Er, that's exactly what a black hole does, though? Once anything crosses the event horizon it's gone forever--the only effect it has thereafter on the "outside world" is that it increases the black hole's gravity and thus makes the event horizon slightly bigger.

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by red assassin » Sat, 4. May 19, 12:41

berth wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 01:57
Thought I hit "submit" before but it's gone so..

@Red Assassin

What do the bracketed number in the diagrams represent? And E? Ellipticity? If so, of what?

I studied some Special Relativity some years ago - the maths is surprisingly straightforward but the conclusions are equally surprisingly counter-intuitive :)
The paper is here - https://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.0459.pdf (Sorry, I should have linked that in the original post!) E is the energy of the orbiting particle, and the three parameters in brackets are the three parameters that specify the different orbits considered in the paper.

Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 01:27
But, it can't just eat up stuff and hide it or erase it forever from the rest of the Universe. That would be bad. What I think is being alluded to here may be matched up more closely with the "falling" analogy of the rubber-sheet illustration. What is happening can be explained by a warped bit of space-time that gets warped so extremely that, in effect, there is nothing that can fall out of such an extreme depression. If you, for instance, dumped a wrecking ball on a big rubber sheet, it'd cause quite a dent, right? It'd be a pretty deep "hole" formation in that sheet and at its edges it would be very, very, "steep." OK, so now you're standing beside that big wrecking ball in a "well" surrounded by a stretched rubber sheet... about a hundred feet deep.

In your hand is a ping-pong ball. A nice light little bit of compressed and formed cellulose. You decide to throw that ball as hard as you can so that it shoots out the top of the depression you're in and is free, once again! And... you can't. A hundred feet is a darn long way to throw a ping-pong ball. In fact, try as you might with all your available energy, you just can't do it. The air resistance is the factor, of course, but here it's just that the ping-pong ball does not have enough velocity to escape the bottom of the hole.

Imagine now that everything is that rubber-sheet and there is no "air resistance." Instead, the particle has to climb up that framework to escape and there is no amount of energy available to give it the velocity necessary to climb up that space-time and escape the doom of the wrecking ball. That constant warping of the sheet by the ball and the constant "falling" bit associated with interactions involving gravity can be somewhat equated to a constant "drain" on the fabric of spacetime. It's not necessarily "static" is what he may be trying to say. (Though, he's smart an' I is ignorant. :) Think of a continuous "drain" as water is moving around the hole in a sink, or being "dragged" there in some extreme cases.
pjk is correct here - in GR it's not just that the hole is really deep and it would take an impractically colossal amount of energy to escape. This is about what happens in the region within the IBCO and photon sphere but outside the event horizon - between 1 and 1.5 times the Schwarzschild radius - where you can still escape, you just need to add an impractically vast amount of energy. Once you've crossed the event horizon there exist no paths through spacetime that leave the black hole. If you're in a hole you can still interact with stuff outside the hole to some extent, and stuff outside the hole can still interact with you. But once you've crossed the event horizon, there are no paths by which any information can be exchanged, no paths by which anything can leave; spacetime is a closed loop in which all paths lead to the singularity.

Quantum mechanics complicates matters very slightly, as we introduce Hawking radiation, which causes black holes to (very slowly) leak mass into the surrounding region of space. This shouldn't be confused with GR's results for how a black hole behaves. It doesn't appear that this carries any information back out of the black hole. This is all still very theoretical, though, and falls into the messy "reconciling QM with GR" area of theoretical physics research.
Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 01:27
But, there has been more than one occasion where I have seen this guy imply something that is incorrect or misleading. It happened on enough occasions that when I have seen him hosting a new show on some channel or something on youtube, I specifically don't pay much attention to it. I don't have anything against him, personally, just that he has said some stuff that he was, perhaps, trying to translate for a lay person like myself.
Are you aware that he's a professor of particle physics? Nothing that isn't pages of maths is ever really correct, and one could argue that even pages of maths aren't correct so much as a particularly accurate approximation. Sure, he hand-waves stuff for popular consumption, but so do I and so does anyone else - it's just a question of what level of hand-waving best gets the point across to your audience. People asking physics questions on this forum are generally asking for something more complex than a mainstream consumption TV show, but they're not asking for pages of maths either.
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by eladan » Sat, 4. May 19, 17:18

pjknibbs wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 10:22
Morkonan wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 01:27
But, it can't just eat up stuff and hide it or erase it forever from the rest of the Universe. That would be bad.
Er, that's exactly what a black hole does, though? Once anything crosses the event horizon it's gone forever--the only effect it has thereafter on the "outside world" is that it increases the black hole's gravity and thus makes the event horizon slightly bigger.
But the mass of any object that falls into a black hole is still there, or a least 'there enough' that it contributes to the gravity that a black hole exerts. What form that mass is in, is anyone's guess though, given that it's supposed to be compressed infinitely small (gravity having overcome all other forces, compressing the mass into an infinitesimal point, the singularity.)

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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by red assassin » Sat, 4. May 19, 18:05

eladan wrote:
Sat, 4. May 19, 17:18
But the mass of any object that falls into a black hole is still there, or a least 'there enough' that it contributes to the gravity that a black hole exerts. What form that mass is in, is anyone's guess though, given that it's supposed to be compressed infinitely small (gravity having overcome all other forces, compressing the mass into an infinitesimal point, the singularity.)
Black holes have three properties which are observable from outside the black hole - mass, charge, and angular momentum. None of these allow you to communicate any information back out of the black hole, though, they're just properties of the black hole itself. One way to think of this that may be helpful is to consider gravitational time dilation - from the point of view of an observer who is not in the black hole, anything that falls in is time dilated, with the dilation factor tending to infinity as the object approaches the singularity. Thus, you never actually see something fall into the black hole, just approach it and travel slower through time. (Important note: it's also redshifted out of view at the same time, so you do lose sight of things falling into a black hole - you'll just never see them cross the event horizon per se.) This means that you can think of the mass, charge, and angular momentum as properties of the surface of the black hole, and so observing them doesn't require anything to have been communicated across the event horizon.
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by Olterin » Sat, 4. May 19, 18:27

... Just so that I don't misunderstand this stuff... from the point of view of any outside observer, "stuff" never quite finishes falling into the black hole, correct? Thus, any information carried by "stuff" never fully leaves the observable universe? (To be more accurate, from the point of view of an outside observer, does the time dilation Gamma factor trend towards infinity for an object approaching the event horizon? Or the singularity itself?)
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Re: Another dumb physics question from RM

Post by red assassin » Sat, 4. May 19, 18:59

For an external observer, time dilation tends to infinity as an object approaches the event horizon. You can argue that therefore it never actually leaves the observable universe (and following this train of thought is what leads to the holographic principle in string theory), though we still have something of a problem for the conservation of information here: assuming that black holes do indeed evaporate slowly via Hawking radiation, you would still need the information content of the black hole's surface to be encoded on the outgoing Hawking radiation in some way to avoid information loss, and it's not clear how that should happen. (Or some alternative way of preserving the information.)
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