Atheism, the discussion

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Vertigo 7
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 8. Jun 20, 17:12

fiksal wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 16:34
CBJ wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 16:29
fiksal wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 16:03
Good point, are they buddhist then or what?
No, the Rohingya are Muslim. The people burning their villages and forcing them to leave the country are Buddhists.
ah yeah, I should've been more clear, - how are the people attacking muslims - buddhists. Still I think the answer is probably same as for everyone - sometimes it's religion that dictates other people's behavior, sometimes it's people that dictate religion.
In either situation, are we supposed to just go "oh, well, if your religion says go kill people, then by all means"? Hiding behind religion is cowardly and despicable, I don't care who is doing it. And from the sound of things, there is no faith or philosophy or whatever you want to call it, that hasn't been used to justify murder. I would have slightly more respect for them if they just admitted they wanted to kill the other guys for x, y, or z reason. Not much, but a little bit more. It would be honest, at the very least.

Take it for what it's worth - In Battle Star Galactica, there was a line that stuck out to me concerning the religion of these fictitious humans that was "What is the most basic article of faith? This is not all that we are." There is a bit of truth to that line. Before anyone can claim to any particular system of belief, we were all human first and we are still human in spite of whatever beliefs we hold to. And as we are instinctively selfish, and instinctively violent in one form or another, that selfishness and violence will inevitably corrupt any tenants of faith, no matter how righteous their offerings.

imho, that alone is reason enough to say the divine does not exist. For if it did, surely our own natural selves would not be so conflicted with its own righteousness. What kind of a twisted 'god' would create beings with their sole purpose being to worship the deity, but stack the deck so heavily against them before the words of the relevant belief system can even reach their ears?
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Mon, 8. Jun 20, 17:25

Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 17:09
I dont really care tbh, but at least follow your own teachings and not ignore them when they are getting in the way of your comfort. (you as in a general term and not meant to mean you personaly)
And I agree with you, but a lot of people doesn't, meaning they really care about what religion I declare to believe in. Again, this is because they can use it as an excuse to attack or defend me and my actions or words.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Mightysword » Mon, 8. Jun 20, 18:14

CBJ wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 14:57
Mightysword wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 07:51
...
I have a feeling that the Rohingya in Myanmar might have a few issues with your idealised view of Buddhists.
Not sure what exactly you're implying , but across the last few pages I had continuously pointed out Buddhism is not above other religions in term of how it has been misused, or claiming that my view is that of representative.
Mightysword wrote:
Sun, 7. Jun 20, 08:09
As much as I often eschew the idea behind Buddhism, I'm not blind to the fact that both in the past and at present, it were misused in manners not different than what founded in others. Its passive principal does offer a lot of failsafe again such abuse, and its teaching minimizing the embowering effects that usually utilized in other religion, but by no mean foolproof against the twisted nature in some human. And that goes for anything really, not just religion, and including science.
Note: when I said present that was specifically a reference to what's currently happening in Burma.
Mightysword wrote:
Sun, 7. Jun 20, 21:38
self-proclaiming as true Christian while doing thing contrary to it shouldn't be used to judge the whole faith as a whole? And like said, I don't think Buddhism is above that.
Mightysword wrote:
Sun, 7. Jun 20, 21:38
So really, it's just really depend on which type of Buddhist you run into. Most of the stuffs I said in this thread are "my" version of Buddhism, which may or may not be representative. :)
Mightysword wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 00:02
Had that happened on the same scale of other religions I doubt Buddhism would have escaped the same perversion of the faith.
If anything, two pages back I fought back the idea of somehow Buddhism should be considered special. I simply argue how it is different, but at no point I remotely claim it is ideal, perfect, or somehow beyond reproach. :)

CBJ wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 16:29
My point is not that there is something bad about Buddhists specifically; just that being a Buddhist doesn't magically make you immune to doing the unpleasant things that humans do to each other all over the world.
And despite what I said, it's the very same point I had repeatably stated. In fact, the reason why I insisted on repeating it (when discussing it with Ketraar) is because I want to specifically avoid people taking my posts as a claim that Buddhism is perfect. Even it never got to a level that you would call ethical cleansing, during the Vietnam war religions (both Catholic and Buddhism) were used as propaganda tool and discrimination as well and its echo could still be felt long afterward. One of my best friend in highschool before I came to the US even asked me this: I don't know how is it your family fought for the south yet are Buddhists? So I can assure you I'm acutely aware. :)


This is also the reason why you're seeing me defending religion in general btw. I have no allegiance to Christian or Catholic but you can see I'm still calling for its understanding. While it's not perfect, it is a fact that the history of Buddhism has been much less bloody relatively comparing to others due to the reasons I had stated in my post. But again, even with such passive doctrine and many fail-safe still can't make Buddhism immune to perversion and corruption of human nature, I empathize with how other religions fall pray to the same thing.
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Mightysword » Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:03

fiksal wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 16:34
sometimes it's religion that dictates other people's behavior, sometimes it's people that dictate religion.
And you have no idea how true that is. Often people look at the religious leaders as the source of corruption while often overlook it actually the worshiper themselves that dictate the behavior. Remember when you asked if I have any bad to say about Buddhism and I said plenty and I mentioned a few before. Somewhere earlier of this thread I mentioned one of them, and that the 'affluence' belief. Buddhism as its core is as in-materialistic as it comes, in fact that doctrine is one of the key contributing factors that made it regress and eventually all but wiped out in its birth place India. Yet very often these days it won't be rare to see some Buddhist lose themselves in the grandeur of large temple and big monuments. Usually this is blamed on the greed of the figurehead (monks) as being greedy, and lead people astray, but for me it's only galf of the problem.

The dilemma is this: when people visit a temple and it looks desolated and humble (like how a temple should be) then people think "oh this place doesn't look popular, it's probably not sacred and Buddha is not here, if I pray here he probably won't hear me!". When those people visit a grand temple adorn with ornament and big statue though, then there reaction "oh this place looks great, a lot of people must come here paying homage so if I come here my pray will be listened!" And I'm sure this "in awe by splendor" is a human nature thing that contributes greatly to the process a religions being lead astray, and the fault is not necessary a leadership fault.

Again, this is why I empathize with other religion. I don't know much about Christianity, but speaking strictly from a historical context, I believe it was created or rooted in the poor to provide them hope and succor. Somewhere along the way it was transformed into this religion of affluence where the house of God are these majestic Cathedral, which I somehow doubt exist in the original teaching, given its root.


And it's weird too how the human brain work. There is a very common saying among Buddhist, at least Vietnamese Buddhist, common enough that I think almost every Buddhist know: "Cứu một mạng người bằng xây bảy tòa tháp". It's loosely translated to "save one life gives you more karma than building 7 great temples". People know this saying, know what it means, yet somehow they still invest money in big temples, erecting grand monument to honor Buddha, money that would be a lot better used to actually save others. :gruebel:

Going against the spirit of my current signature here, and by no intention to derail the discussion, but I think most people participating in this discussion also have a keen interest in current politic, so it may serve as a good parallel examples: it's like often we love to blame our society's problem and direction at the feet of the politician/leaders. But is it the politician who shapes the society, or is it the society that shapes the kind of politicians it gets?
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:25

Mightysword wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:03
But is it the politician who shapes the society, or is it the society that shapes the kind of politicians it gets?
I have been a rather annoying proposer of this for ages. People really dislike being called out on it, its much better to just blame some obscure figure no one knows really, there would have to be consequence otherwise. Anyway...

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:36

People has to deal with the fact vote is a responsibility, not just a right.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 15:52

Mightysword wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:03

And you have no idea how true that is. Often people look at the religious leaders as the source of corruption while often overlook it actually the worshiper themselves that dictate the behavior.
I think it's a little bit of both if not a feedback loop. People might elect one of their own, a corruptible person, the person corrupts the post, next such person is elected and continues. If that's even an elected position.

Same goes for politicians.


As with your example with expensive temples, same is true for Christianity - they are not actually supposed to decorate so much, nor they are supposed to worship idols - the golden icons, crosses, etc. There's a whole direction of "old faith" Russian Orthodox Christians who follow that exactly - no big temples, no icons.
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:38

fiksal wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 15:52
Mightysword wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:03

And you have no idea how true that is. Often people look at the religious leaders as the source of corruption while often overlook it actually the worshiper themselves that dictate the behavior.
I think it's a little bit of both if not a feedback loop. People might elect one of their own, a corruptible person, the person corrupts the post, next such person is elected and continues. If that's even an elected position.

Same goes for politicians.


As with your example with expensive temples, same is true for Christianity - they are not actually supposed to decorate so much, nor they are supposed to worship idols - the golden icons, crosses, etc. There's a whole direction of "old faith" Russian Orthodox Christians who follow that exactly - no big temples, no icons.
The cult of saints in Christianity is something that makes me wonder if it isn't polytheism, by now... I mean, you have a "Saint protector" for literally everything, worshipped and prayed to by lots of people. Is it the only monotheism who does that?

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:52

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:38
fiksal wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 15:52
Mightysword wrote:
Mon, 8. Jun 20, 19:03

And you have no idea how true that is. Often people look at the religious leaders as the source of corruption while often overlook it actually the worshiper themselves that dictate the behavior.
I think it's a little bit of both if not a feedback loop. People might elect one of their own, a corruptible person, the person corrupts the post, next such person is elected and continues. If that's even an elected position.

Same goes for politicians.


As with your example with expensive temples, same is true for Christianity - they are not actually supposed to decorate so much, nor they are supposed to worship idols - the golden icons, crosses, etc. There's a whole direction of "old faith" Russian Orthodox Christians who follow that exactly - no big temples, no icons.
The cult of saints in Christianity is something that makes me wonder if it isn't polytheism, by now... I mean, you have a "Saint protector" for literally everything, worshipped and prayed to by lots of people. Is it the only monotheism who does that?
Saints are really only somewhat idolized in Catholic denominations. Baptist, Lutheran, and others don't really focus too much on saints. Mormons are a bit of an exception, but, they're also pretty far out there even by Christianity standards.
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by brucewarren » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 18:06

Suppose there was a matter you wished to bring to the attention of the POTUS.

Would you march directly into his private chamber and demand he listen to you? No I don't think anyone would do this.
You would try to find a sympathetic official with the ear of the president and ask him to speak on your behalf.

This, I think, is what's going on with the Catholics and the Saints. They feel it would be impertinent to pray directly to God
so they ask a saint to do them a solid and speak for them. As someone raised in the Church of England I was taught that folks
should pray directly to the Almighty and not use intermediaries in that fashion so I consider the Catholic idea a bad one.

Do I think Catholics make too much of the Saints? Yes they probably do. Do I believe they actually worship them? No.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 20:10

brucewarren wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 18:06
Do I think Catholics make too much of the Saints? Yes they probably do. Do I believe they actually worship them? No.
You would be wrong here though. Here 13th of May is a much bigger event than Xmas, its a month long celebration with people marching to Fatima. May is called the Month of Mary.
Also communal holidays are (with the exception of one) all based on Saint days. We have all sorts of places of worship dedicated to Saints, they even feature in calendars. Most churches will have multiple altars, a main one and often at least 2 more, one dedicated to Mary and one dedicated to any prominent local Saint. Most villages will have a Saint Patron in their name and then feature major festivities on the day of said Saint.

One has to note that Roman Catholics are descendants of "pagans" that worshiped many gods, they just got replaced with Saints. As with Roman gods, there is a Saint for anything, from agriculture to health, to drivers and nurses.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 20:51

brucewarren wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 18:06
Suppose there was a matter you wished to bring to the attention of the POTUS.

Would you march directly into his private chamber and demand he listen to you? No I don't think anyone would do this.
You would try to find a sympathetic official with the ear of the president and ask him to speak on your behalf.

This, I think, is what's going on with the Catholics and the Saints. They feel it would be impertinent to pray directly to God
so they ask a saint to do them a solid and speak for them. As someone raised in the Church of England I was taught that folks
should pray directly to the Almighty and not use intermediaries in that fashion so I consider the Catholic idea a bad one.

Do I think Catholics make too much of the Saints? Yes they probably do. Do I believe they actually worship them? No.
They worship them a lot here in Italy.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 23:18

We're about to go into Da Vinci Code territory!
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Sat, 13. Jun 20, 03:47

@Ketraar, @BrasatoAlBarolo, really? I learned something today, I didnt think the saints were a big deal anywhere.

How does that work exactly, do people pray to them directly?


I am trying to recall how it works with Russian Orthodox. There are definitely Saints, that are responsible for certain tasks. I dont think many outside of church know exactly who is who. Inside of church - that's a different story.
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Sat, 13. Jun 20, 12:56

fiksal wrote:
Sat, 13. Jun 20, 03:47
@Ketraar, @BrasatoAlBarolo, really? I learned something today, I didnt think the saints were a big deal anywhere.

How does that work exactly, do people pray to them directly?


I am trying to recall how it works with Russian Orthodox. There are definitely Saints, that are responsible for certain tasks. I dont think many outside of church know exactly who is who. Inside of church - that's a different story.
They pray them, they build statues for them, sacred images, relics, ... Everything a pagan cult would do, actually.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Ketraar » Sat, 13. Jun 20, 13:16

fiksal wrote:
Sat, 13. Jun 20, 03:47
How does that work exactly, do people pray to them directly?
As mentioned above, often churches will have a dedicated secondary/tertiary altar dedicated to a saint patron. Much like with Roman gods, saints have specific traits, like some are specialists in healing, some a protectors of the travelers, others are specialized in helping the poor or lost causes. If you need help in a specific thing, you pray to that specific saint.

Mary is special though, she has multiple traits and "incarnations" often related to locations where she appeared or did some miracle, thus will have all sorts of places of worship and also depending on the local specialization specific "cures" will be provided. As also mentioned before, she is much more prominent in culture than Jesus and or even God himself. While most if not all recognize the power structure of the trinity and who is in charge, Mary as the mother figure is the one to go to when in need of help, much like with real life, especially in a society where woman are the ones actually doing the caring and feeding people. Unless there is a very specific saint available, Mary is the go to and also will be featured in all Churches even if with "just" a statue.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Sun, 14. Jun 20, 00:27

Ketraar wrote:
Sat, 13. Jun 20, 13:16
fiksal wrote:
Sat, 13. Jun 20, 03:47
How does that work exactly, do people pray to them directly?
As mentioned above, often churches will have a dedicated secondary/tertiary altar dedicated to a saint patron. Much like with Roman gods, saints have specific traits, like some are specialists in healing, some a protectors of the travelers, others are specialized in helping the poor or lost causes. If you need help in a specific thing, you pray to that specific saint.

Mary is special though, she has multiple traits and "incarnations" often related to locations where she appeared or did some miracle, thus will have all sorts of places of worship and also depending on the local specialization specific "cures" will be provided. As also mentioned before, she is much more prominent in culture than Jesus and or even God himself. While most if not all recognize the power structure of the trinity and who is in charge, Mary as the mother figure is the one to go to when in need of help, much like with real life, especially in a society where woman are the ones actually doing the caring and feeding people. Unless there is a very specific saint available, Mary is the go to and also will be featured in all Churches even if with "just" a statue.

MFG

Ketraar
But never, ever pray the wrong saint.
There's a joke in Italy that I now try to translate (somatic components were important in this one, but I hope my tranlsation's gonna do the job):
A man is falling from a palace, and while falling he closes his eyes and starts praying: "Please, Sant'Antonio, please save my life and I promise me and my family are going to worship you, and praise you" - Suddently, the man feels like a hand under his back, slowing is fall, and a voice sounds in his head - "Da Padova or d'Abate?" - the man, confused at first, after a some seconds replies - "Da Padova!" - and then - "Him? Why it's always him???" - SPLAT!
There are two (probably more) different St. Anthonies... And both are woshipped very seriously.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Sun, 14. Jun 20, 05:03

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Sun, 14. Jun 20, 00:27
But never, ever pray the wrong saint.
There's a joke in Italy that I now try to translate (somatic components were important in this one, but I hope my tranlsation's gonna do the job):
A man is falling from a palace, and while falling he closes his eyes and starts praying: "Please, Sant'Antonio, please save my life and I promise me and my family are going to worship you, and praise you" - Suddently, the man feels like a hand under his back, slowing is fall, and a voice sounds in his head - "Da Padova or d'Abate?" - the man, confused at first, after a some seconds replies - "Da Padova!" - and then - "Him? Why it's always him???" - SPLAT!
There are two (probably more) different St. Anthonies... And both are woshipped very seriously.

It's a good joke :)

So is this generally a Catholic thing or Itallian Catholic uniqueness?

to add a little bit to the topic.
as I was saying Russian pre-christian gods were turned into Saints in Christianity. For example this "guy", who Russian still celebrate the pagan way by this day, without remember who or why.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night
Kupala Night, (Russian: Иван-Купала, Belarusian: Купалле; Ukrainian: Івана Купала; Polish: Noc Kupały), called Ivanа-Kupala, is a traditional eastern Slavic holiday which is celebrated in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and Russia during the night from 6 to 7 July (on the Gregorian calendar). (This corresponds to 23-24 June on these countries’ traditional Julian calendar.)
...
[Kupala] a pagan fertility rite later adapted into the Orthodox Christian calendar by connecting it with St. John's Day which is celebrated on 24 June.[2]
...
The night preceding the holiday (Tvorila night) is considered the night for "good humour" mischiefs (which sometimes would raise the concern of law enforcement agencies). On Ivan Kupala day itself, children engage in water fights and perform pranks, mostly involving pouring water over people.
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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Sun, 14. Jun 20, 10:53

fiksal wrote:
Sun, 14. Jun 20, 05:03
BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Sun, 14. Jun 20, 00:27
But never, ever pray the wrong saint.
There's a joke in Italy that I now try to translate (somatic components were important in this one, but I hope my tranlsation's gonna do the job):
A man is falling from a palace, and while falling he closes his eyes and starts praying: "Please, Sant'Antonio, please save my life and I promise me and my family are going to worship you, and praise you" - Suddently, the man feels like a hand under his back, slowing is fall, and a voice sounds in his head - "Da Padova or d'Abate?" - the man, confused at first, after a some seconds replies - "Da Padova!" - and then - "Him? Why it's always him???" - SPLAT!
There are two (probably more) different St. Anthonies... And both are woshipped very seriously.

It's a good joke :)

So is this generally a Catholic thing or Itallian Catholic uniqueness?

to add a little bit to the topic.
as I was saying Russian pre-christian gods were turned into Saints in Christianity. For example this "guy", who Russian still celebrate the pagan way by this day, without remember who or why.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night
Kupala Night, (Russian: Иван-Купала, Belarusian: Купалле; Ukrainian: Івана Купала; Polish: Noc Kupały), called Ivanа-Kupala, is a traditional eastern Slavic holiday which is celebrated in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and Russia during the night from 6 to 7 July (on the Gregorian calendar). (This corresponds to 23-24 June on these countries’ traditional Julian calendar.)
...
[Kupala] a pagan fertility rite later adapted into the Orthodox Christian calendar by connecting it with St. John's Day which is celebrated on 24 June.[2]
...
The night preceding the holiday (Tvorila night) is considered the night for "good humour" mischiefs (which sometimes would raise the concern of law enforcement agencies). On Ivan Kupala day itself, children engage in water fights and perform pranks, mostly involving pouring water over people.
I don't know about outside Italy, as I'm a non believer and I can only see what happens around me, but patron saints are very common in Europe, even if they're probably not as worshipped as Italian saints.

The importance of the figure of Mary, and her worship, is another curious thing, because if you think about it, she's not a Saint and she's literally the only non-divine figure around. Nevertheless, she's often considered more important than both Jesus and god himself.

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Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Ketraar » Sun, 14. Jun 20, 14:31

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Sun, 14. Jun 20, 10:53
The importance of the figure of Mary, and her worship, is another curious thing, because if you think about it, she's not a Saint and she's literally the only non-divine figure around.
You are mistaken here, see Jesus is not a Saint either, yet he is divine, Mary is divine by default or "by osmosis" if you like when giving birth to god's son and then become his first "disciple". It rubbed off so to speak. Unlike Saints, Mary didnt need to be canonized so technically she is not a Saint, but is still very much divine and as I mentioned above, her being the mother is the go-to figure in times of need, like most mothers.

Maybe this is a thing more embedded in the southern, more "roman" regions of christianity, where roman paganism was stronger and people felt the need to keep some worship practices and thus made use of the saint patrons to fill this gap. Considering that roman catholicism was created by decree it would make sense to keep most rituals to avoid shocking people, so a re-branding makes much more sense than a complete restructure. This can be seen all over the colonized world where imposed christianity is adjusted to include some strong local rituals. And this is what makes me look at it more of a source of control then actual spirituality, because I would expect the "truth" wrt to any deity being one and not many. So this abrahamic god is very bad a communicating its wishes and doctrine... :roll:

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