Coronavirus: COVID-19

[CBJ]

I'm not going to disagree with either the principle that the failings in education should be fixed, but there are occasions (and this is one of them) when we don't have the luxury of the time to actually make that happen. The tidal wave of ignorance and misinformation is not something that we're going to solve overnight, or even in a year or two, and we can't all just sit on our high horses and talk about principles while we watch millions of people die, many of whom are not the ones who are ignorant.

Yes we do, in fact its EXACTLY what we should do.

Let me get this straight, you just said that we should let millions of innocent people die or suffer long-term illness in order to protect the "freedom" of a few people who have read some garbage conspiracy theory on Facebook and don't believe in vaccines?

[Vertigo 7]

At a bare minimum, people should understand any trepidation some may have about putting things in your body that the Trump administration has had a hand in creating. I'm not suggesting that Donald "Very Stable Genius" Trump actually made the vaccine, before some Confucius wannabe distorts that, but putting political pressure on the development of this to allow Trump to say "look, I did this. No one else did." should be enough to give people pause before they put it in their bodies.

Nobody is "unsure about getting the shot" because of Trump saying it's "his vaccine" (which clearly isn't). If you exclude anti-vaxxers (because - I think we can agree on that - they're just mad men), some people questions the speed of the testing process and is worried about the possibility pharmaceutical societies and research centers have "skipped some step" to rush and save as many people they can. Honestly, I don't feel like saying they are 100% wrong, because it's outside of my area of expertise, but I'm sure that the normal process is slowed a lot by bureaucracy, that in this case has been put aside (that's the main cause of the shorter timespan we can have a working vaccine for covid 19).
I can understand their perspective, even if I don't agree with it. And I can understand how "mandatory vaccines" are felt like some for of authoritarism (every mandatory thing is, even wearing seatbelts and, if you think about it with a bit of cynical and ultra-anti-capitalist mind, you'd think it's all about money: accidents are expensive for the community, as curing unvaccinated covid infected people is expensive).

Well, that's kind of one in the same, too. So here's the thing... if every vaccine development prior to COVID was delayed simply for the sake of bureaucracy, then our governments have catastrophically failed us in the past and we should pat them on the back today for finally deciding the cost of human life isn't worth the bureaucracy? And in my case, the same government that said COVID would just go away, and it was a hoax concocted by the media and the democrats? I don't trust this government. They've given me no reason to.

[Ketraar]

Let me get this straight, you just said that we should let millions of innocent people die or suffer long-term illness in order to protect the "freedom" of a few people who have read some garbage conspiracy theory on Facebook and don't believe in vaccines?

Not sure where you got that tbh. I said, you need not discard the PRINCIPLE of protecting the freedom. Its not black and white, but sure lets pretend I didnt mention any nuance.

MFG

Ketraar

[Mightysword]

some people questions the speed of the testing process and is worried about the possibility pharmaceutical societies and research centers have "skipped some step" to rush and save as many people they can. Honestly, I don't feel like saying they are 100% wrong,

Correlation, direct causation and indirect causation need to be separated. Is there some political motivation behind the accelerated process? Of course there is, it's so obvious that I don't think that even need to be a question. But the real question is: in what way the political motivation affect the process?

If it means some head of state can kick down the door of the research lab and told the director something like "I don't care and I don't give a shit, I want the vaccine ready tomorrow or off with your head!" then yeah, that's bad. Ironically, this is where I'm thankful to capitalism, and the fact most of these research labs are corporations. I probably would have the same missgiving as some others if these are state-run companies. I don't mean Biotech companies are example of virtues, they are arses, but there are different type of arses. These guys may have no problem to strip your wallet bare, suck up your tax dollar, and rip you off when they treat you, but the point of their business is still "to treat you". This vaccine deal no matter how big, will not be their last deal. So for them to risk their reputation on such a large scale just for some politicians to get their brownie points simply run against the interest of their own business, and that's what Capitalists don't do. In fact, forget all other arguments, this is my main counter-argument to the whole government conspiracy talk regarding the vaccine. It's different if you live in a dictatorship (i.e China or Russia), but thankfully most of us live in a capitalist democracy.


Rather, the political motivation translate into these actions:

- If you rewrite a "sequential" program running on a Pentium into a parallel program running on the latest multi-core, it will simply run faster, and does not result in a worse output. That's what the bureaucracy reform means for the vaccine process.

- Money: it's simple, money make things go fast. I can wait for 3 weeks for a package delivered to me from Asia, or I throw money at it and make it appear on my door in 24h, and my package doesn't arrive worse because it arrives faster. You look at the space race during the cold war where space agencies were given limitless money, and the number of achievements/milestone during that period. Biotech is a field that requires a lot of money, and this is the result when you give the process a blank cheque.

So yes, the accelerated result we see is definitely a result of political motivation, but it acts as an enabler and motivator. It's like charity, people do it under different motivations. But to a foodbank, whether someone donated out of the goodness of their heart, or someone donated to buy fame, or for tax evasion, or for good karma: none of that matter, more money = more food. An impure motive will not make the same amount of money to buy less food.

[CBJ]

Well, that's kind of one in the same, too. So here's the thing... if every vaccine development prior to COVID was delayed simply for the sake of bureaucracy, then our governments have catastrophically failed us in the past and we should pat them on the back today for finally deciding the cost of human life isn't worth the bureaucracy? And in my case, the same government that said COVID would just go away, and it was a hoax concocted by the media and the democrats? I don't trust this government. They've given me no reason to.

With all due respect, the idea that this is about "this government" is an extraordinarily US-centric view of a worldwide situation. Nobody outside the US gives a damn what Trump, or the US democrats for that matter, say about the vaccine. In most parts of the world this is simply not a political issue. In the UK, for example, there are political disagreements over the handling of the pandemic, the decision-making process for the restrictions imposed on people, the economic support given to affected groups, and so on, but there is no politicisation of the pandemic itself, or of the delivery of the vaccine. No political party is claiming credit for the success of the vaccine; in fact even our most self-aggrandising leaders are busy congratulating the scientists on their success in getting it done so soon.

The point about vaccine development taking way too long in the past has some merit, but there are couple of mitigating factors here. One is that until the last 20 years or so, vaccine development has largely been directed at diseases that have been around for years and whose toll has been steady rather than exponential. That, and the fact that many of the diseases mainly hit parts of the world that didn't have a lot of money to throw at the problem, meant that there was little pressure to develop vaccines quickly. It was only really with the emergence of new diseases such SARS and MERS, and later Ebola (although not technically new, it didn't pose the threat of widespread infection until recently) that that pressure grew, not just because of the diseases themselves but because of the realisation that the emergence of new pandemics was increasingly likely. The other factor is recent developments in our understanding of the processes behind the immune system, and in our ability to identify the key components of a virus and manipulate the components that make up a vaccine to mimic it. This means that scientists can spend a lot less time going down blind alleys during vaccine development, and have the tools to pretty much build a vaccine from components, Lego-style, with much more certainty of it actually working. So the bureaucracy was slow largely because there was very little pressure for it to be quicker, and bureaucracy that has no pressure on it just is... slow; once there was an imperative to change that, it was surprisingly easy to do so.

Not sure where you got that tbh. I said, you need not discard the PRINCIPLE of protecting the freedom. Its not black and white, but sure lets pretend I didnt mention any nuance.

Well, I just quoted where you said it. I said we can't just sit back and let millions of people die because of a matter of principle, and you said that's exactly what we should do. Hard to find the nuance in there. But I do realise that that's probably not what you really meant to say. So how about what I said after that? Does that satisfy your principles?

[Ketraar]

Strangely enough it appears to be fine to monitor peope who say, take heroin or crack or any other number of substances except tobacco or alcohol without devolving into the authoritarian police state you paint.

No clue what you are talking about, in my country ALL drugs were decriminalised and only trafficking is a crime.

Well, I just quoted where you said it. I said we can't just sit back and let millions of people die because of a matter of principle, and you said that's exactly what we should do. Hard to find the nuance in there.

Well the nuance was in the part where I said we need to find a solution that does both, not let people die in silly numbers AND not discard the principles of allowing people as much freedom as possible. Obviously the first bit taken alone sounds odd, granted phrasing could have been better.

So how about what I said after that? Does that satisfy your principles?

Again it was in the second paragraph where I agreed that consequences to the choice would make sense in SOME cases. The bit where it gets way too far (and this was what I reacted to) is when people start wanting to point fingers, possible create lists of "perpetrators", that all gives me nasty chills of things that dont belong anywhere near our societies, it reeks of fascism. And yes maybe a few people will die in the short term, but again we seem to accept people dying for allowing freedoms in things that arguably are much more problematic, from guns, food, cars pollution, etc and no one thinks that we should make lists of those people. And even in a exaggerated example, where people were saved and all we had to do is give up the principle of freedom, I doubt the net "gain" in the mid-term would be positive, as the path to authoritarianism always leads to more people suffering and not less.

Just to make sure, I'm not advocating for any black&white approach, stuff in life needs gradients and more then one thing can be true at the same time, and I'm sure that most of the countries are sensible enough to do just that.

MFG

Ketraar

[Vertigo 7]

Well, that's kind of one in the same, too. So here's the thing... if every vaccine development prior to COVID was delayed simply for the sake of bureaucracy, then our governments have catastrophically failed us in the past and we should pat them on the back today for finally deciding the cost of human life isn't worth the bureaucracy? And in my case, the same government that said COVID would just go away, and it was a hoax concocted by the media and the democrats? I don't trust this government. They've given me no reason to.

With all due respect, the idea that this is about "this government" is an extraordinarily US-centric view of a worldwide situation. Nobody outside the US gives a damn what Trump, or the US democrats for that matter, say about the vaccine. In most parts of the world this is simply not a political issue. In the UK, for example, there are political disagreements over the handling of the pandemic, the decision-making process for the restrictions imposed on people, the economic support given to affected groups, and so on, but there is no politicisation of the pandemic itself, or of the delivery of the vaccine. No political party is claiming credit for the success of the vaccine; in fact even our most self-aggrandising leaders are busy congratulating the scientists on their success in getting it done so soon.

I think this is pretty much why. I have to look at it from this angle because this is where I am and both Phizer and Moderna are US based companies.

Obviously COVID is a global issue and obviously vaccinations will need to be dealt globally. I'm not disputing any of that. My problem is strictly where and why this vaccination came from. Even if I were a citizen of the UK or Uganda, this thing having Trump's fingerprints all over it would make me balk at taking it. It wasn't so long ago that the pill pusher-in-chief damn near killed my cousin with his wonder drug bs. Don't take that as I'm implying that the vaccinations will kill people, I just don't have faith that anything the Trump administration has cut regulatory corners on production or distribution is either effective or safe. They've lied too much and I'm not gonna immediately hop on something just because I want it to work, which I do.

I'm perfectly content keeping my ass at home until I'm satisfied that the "Trump vaccine" works. I just put gas in my car for the first time this year a week ago if that gives you any idea how many times I've left. I limit my potential exposure and I limit the possibility of exposing others and I will continue to do so. If it works, great. If not, well then it's just one more lie from Trump that furthers the death toll, that's all.

[Mightysword]

Just to make sure, I'm not advocating for any black&white approach, stuff in life needs gradients and more then one thing can be true at the same time, and I'm sure that most of the countries are sensible enough to do just that.

So the question is: what do want to do at this moment? And by that I mean a clear, precise, actionable directive. I don't disagree with you about the gradients, hell I'm probably one of the loudest advocator on this forum in that regard. But this is not a discussion in the vacuum of philosophy. No matter how much shade of gray one wants to talk about, ultimately when a policy or law are written, it boils down to dictating what you do and what you don't. Using this exchange I got from a certain shows as an example:


Senator: I'm told you're living in a refugee camp right now, is there any inconvenience?
Refugee: I do not understand what you mean by "inconveniences". If you mean that not everything is convenient, than that's true for everyone.
Senator: I'll change the question then. Do you lack anything that you require?
Refugee: All of my clothing, food, shelter, work, and spiritual needs are being met. If I started asking for more, that'd be no end to it.


The point is just like that list of "clothing, food, shelter, work, and spiritual" define a very specific parameter, our current situation have some very specific issue to address, namely: stop people from dying and stop the economy from reaching the point of collapsing. There is very little "gray or nuance" in the consequence of what would happen if those 2 issues are not deal with soon. And just like what it means about "inconveniences", we can keep bring up points - valid points - and there will be no end to it.

What we should do? What we can do? what we must do? They are not the same questions. The main reason why some Asian are countries extremely effective at dealing with this pandemic is because they basically tossed the first 2 questions out of the window.

Edit: spelling and grammar.

[Vertigo 7]

But this is not a discussion in the vacuum of philosophy.

Then why do you keep trying to turn everything into a philosophical discussion and provide irrelevant fables to try to prove your point?

[red assassin]

I think this is pretty much why. I have to look at it from this angle because this is where I am and both Phizer and Moderna are US based companies.

Obviously COVID is a global issue and obviously vaccinations will need to be dealt globally. I'm not disputing any of that. My problem is strictly where and why this vaccination came from. Even if I were a citizen of the UK or Uganda, this thing having Trump's fingerprints all over it would make me balk at taking it. It wasn't so long ago that the pill pusher-in-chief damn near killed my cousin with his wonder drug bs. Don't take that as I'm implying that the vaccinations will kill people, I just don't have faith that anything the Trump administration has cut regulatory corners on production or distribution is either effective or safe. They've lied too much and I'm not gonna immediately hop on something just because I want it to work, which I do.

I'm perfectly content keeping my ass at home until I'm satisfied that the "Trump vaccine" works. I just put gas in my car for the first time this year a week ago if that gives you any idea how many times I've left. I limit my potential exposure and I limit the possibility of exposing others and I will continue to do so. If it works, great. If not, well then it's just one more lie from Trump that furthers the death toll, that's all.

If you're really that inclined to believe Trump running his mouth about a bunch of stuff that's entirely outside his control... why not just wait and see if other countries with entirely independent medical regulators approve it? The UK already has, and others will follow before the rollout starts in any significant numbers in the US.

[Vertigo 7]

I think this is pretty much why. I have to look at it from this angle because this is where I am and both Phizer and Moderna are US based companies.

Obviously COVID is a global issue and obviously vaccinations will need to be dealt globally. I'm not disputing any of that. My problem is strictly where and why this vaccination came from. Even if I were a citizen of the UK or Uganda, this thing having Trump's fingerprints all over it would make me balk at taking it. It wasn't so long ago that the pill pusher-in-chief damn near killed my cousin with his wonder drug bs. Don't take that as I'm implying that the vaccinations will kill people, I just don't have faith that anything the Trump administration has cut regulatory corners on production or distribution is either effective or safe. They've lied too much and I'm not gonna immediately hop on something just because I want it to work, which I do.

I'm perfectly content keeping my ass at home until I'm satisfied that the "Trump vaccine" works. I just put gas in my car for the first time this year a week ago if that gives you any idea how many times I've left. I limit my potential exposure and I limit the possibility of exposing others and I will continue to do so. If it works, great. If not, well then it's just one more lie from Trump that furthers the death toll, that's all.

If you're really that inclined to believe Trump running his mouth about a bunch of stuff that's entirely outside his control... why not just wait and see if other countries with entirely independent medical regulators approve it? The UK already has, and others will follow before the rollout starts in any significant numbers in the US.

I wish it was just Trump running his mouth but the regulatory agency, the FDA, is directly under his control and his "Operation Warp Speed" pushed for this rushed vaccine development.

Other agencies outside of the US will do much to alleviate my concerns. I'm just absolutely not going to take Trump, or anyone who he has control or influence over, at their word. They've squandered all of their credibility and something this big should certainly warrant extreme scrutiny.

[CBJ]

I think this is pretty much why. I have to look at it from this angle because this is where I am and both Phizer and Moderna are US based companies.

Pfizer is US-based, but their partner BioNTech, the company that actually developed the vaccine technology, is German. Another vaccine in the final stages of testing is being developed in the UK. Others are coming from elsewhere. It's an international effort.

Even if I were a citizen of the UK or Uganda, this thing having Trump's fingerprints all over it would make me balk at taking it.

Sorry, but this is exactly what I was referring to when I talked about a wildly US-centric viewpoint. I don't think most people outside the US see Trump's fingerprints on the effort to find vaccine at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Aside from trying to take credit for it, people see him as having little or nothing to do with any positive progress against the pandemic in any field whatsoever.

I wish it was just Trump running his mouth but the regulatory agency, the FDA, is directly under his control and his "Operation Warp Speed" pushed for this rushed vaccine development.

Governments all over the world have pushed for the vaccine development to be as quick as possible, and have done everything in their power to remove bureaucratic hurdles while retaining those associated with trials and safety. They don't control the vaccine development; indeed in the case of Pfizer/BioNTech the US government didn't even fund it. Every country controls its own approval process, and in only one country does Trump have any influence over that.

[Ezarkal]

Aside from trying to take credit for it, people see him as having little or nothing to do with any positive progress against the pandemic in any field whatsoever.

As a guy living just north of the US border, I can attest this impression.

I wish it was just Trump running his mouth but the regulatory agency, the FDA, is directly under his control and his "Operation Warp Speed" pushed for this rushed vaccine development.

Governments all over the world have pushed for the vaccine development to be as quick as possible, and have done everything in their power to remove bureaucratic hurdles while retaining those associated with trials and safety. They don't control the vaccine development; indeed in the case of Pfizer/BioNTech the US government didn't even fund it. Every country controls its own approval process, and in only one country does Trump have any influence over that.

The russian vaccine, or any vaccine the chinese would pull off this quickly, I'd take with a few grains of salt. But something from Pfizer? If anyone can pull off a vaccine this quickly... well they are some of the few with the actual expertise to do it.

No matter how govt want to rush the vaccine, Pfizer is among the top companies in the world of the pharmaceutical R&D, and considering their expertise and capacities I have a hard time seeing them cutting corner.
Same with any company from Germany (BioNTech in this case). When it comes to research, Germans have proven times and times again: they have standards.
Take that from someone who works in a closely related field.

At the end of the day, the thing is: the vaccine did come out pretty quickly. There will always be a risk that a small portion of the population may be affected by some side-effects. There's no way to absolutely 10,000% guarantee this will not happen. It's research, and that's how research works. But it was made by people with the know-how... and no matter what I can guarantee you the risk brought by Covid will be much greater than the risks of potential side effects from the vaccine.
I mean... just look at how many people are dying per day. Now realize that people with morbid long-term complications from Covid are probably much more numerous, as always... (but as always, the stats we're shown tend to ignore those.)
Food for thought.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

It's not been just about money. Yes, money helped a lot, but there are a number of things in medical research requiring approval from agencies, and those steps usually require time.
When I said "they skipped some steps", I didn't mean "they skipped proper testing", but they just let covid vaccine "skip the queue", getting in front of papers related to other drugs to speed the process because of the current unprecedented emergency.
When I read or see people not trusting the safety of this vaccine (because it came out too fast), I can understand that but I also can see the lack of information (which I have myself too) on how procedures work. I generally trust experience and medical companies have a lot of experience, they make billions by saving lives and making lives simpler. It's their job, and they excel at it. I'd trust a lot less russian or chinese vaccines, but not because they're semi-dictatorships or are used to shady things (probably my bias, I know), but because those medical companies are "new" on the scene, so I cannot trust them yet. One thing is "going to the moon", which is actually very simple today, provided you've got the money to do that, another is doing a job requiring a lot of experience, cutting edge technology and critical precision on your procedures like producing a drug or a vaccine.

And I can also confirm that nobody outside of America cares about "Trump effort on researching HIS vaccine", because everyone but some Albama farmer knows it's bullpoo. Every politician here is congratulating scientists and pharmaceutical companies for their job and waiting the last tests to give the shot to the most people possible.

[RegisterMe]

@CBJ, I think I have some sympathy for where Vertigo7 is coming from. Trump has spent the last four years doing his best to wreck pretty much every institution in the US that doesn't fall into line with his worldview. He's also spread outright lies and misinformation about COVID-19 at every opportunity, up to and including supporting cranks and conspiracy theorists, and undermined organisations like the CDC (eg over staffing and data provision / aggregation) and their response to the epidemic. Just a whiff of political pressure on the FDA is going to leave a lasting stink.

Even knowing it's all bull it's no surprise to me that some people are a little more sceptical about anything that comes out of the administration / government at the moment.

It's going to take time for these self-inflicted wounds to heal .

[Vertigo 7]

@CBJ, I think I have some sympathy for where Vertigo7 is coming from. Trump has spent the last four years doing his best to wreck pretty much every institution in the US that doesn't fall into line with his worldview. He's also spread outright lies and misinformation about COVID-19 at every opportunity, up to and including supporting cranks and conspiracy theorists, and undermined organisations like the CDC (eg over staffing and data provision / aggregation) and their response to the epidemic. Just a whiff of political pressure on the FDA is going to leave a lasting stink.

Even knowing it's all bull it's no surprise to me that some people are a little more sceptical about anything that comes out of the administration / government at the moment.

It's going to take time for these self-inflicted wounds to heal .

This is exactly what I'm saying. We're seeing close to 3k COVID deaths per day, nearing 300k total deaths. Trump has gone out of his way to downplay and outright ignore any dangers associated with this virus and politicized every aspect of it, even after damn near everyone in the White House contracted it including Trump, now I'm supposed to just trust that his administration is suddenly keen on believing science and providing a cure?

3 members of my family contracted COVID within the last month and 1 died and another nearly died because she took hydroxychloroquine thanks to Trump's "what do you have to lose?". My state is full of MAGA morons that listen to and believe Trump's rhetoric. Believe me when I say I do want this to work. But you'll have to forgive me for waiting until I'm comfortable with putting something in my body that Trump is promoting.

[matthewfarmery]

Guess who has tested positive recently?

https://www.cp24.com/world/trump-lawyer ... -1.5219428

So there is yet another one of Trump's inner circle to contract this. At least he won't be in the courtroom anytime soon.

[CBJ]

But you'll have to forgive me for waiting until I'm comfortable with putting something in my body that Trump is promoting.

What I am struggling to understand is why you, of all people, are taking any notice whatsoever of what he says. He's utterly irrelevant to the question of whether the vaccine is safe or effective, and nothing he says about it carries any weight, either for or against it. There are plenty of other sources of information available that do carry weight, so perhaps start listening to them instead.

[Vertigo 7]

But you'll have to forgive me for waiting until I'm comfortable with putting something in my body that Trump is promoting.

What I am struggling to understand is why you, of all people, are taking any notice whatsoever of what he says. He's utterly irrelevant to the question of whether the vaccine is safe or effective, and nothing he says about it carries any weight, either for or against it. There are plenty of other sources of information available that do carry weight, so perhaps start listening to them instead.

Because I'm not willing to roll the dice and bet against the odds that Trump is running yet another con. I can trust Trump to do one thing - what's best for Trump. The idea that he suddenly has an interest in helping people? The notion is laughable.

[Gavrushka]

But you'll have to forgive me for waiting until I'm comfortable with putting something in my body that Trump is promoting.

What I am struggling to understand is why you, of all people, are taking any notice whatsoever of what he says. He's utterly irrelevant to the question of whether the vaccine is safe or effective, and nothing he says about it carries any weight, either for or against it. There are plenty of other sources of information available that do carry weight, so perhaps start listening to them instead.

Because I'm not willing to roll the dice and bet against the odds that Trump is running yet another con. I can trust Trump to do one thing - what's best for Trump. The idea that he suddenly has an interest in helping people? The notion is laughable.

I do very much get what you're saying, but it is far harder for an overseas observer to fully appreciate what life must feel like under Trump. He always does appear to have an angle, whatever he does, and he's polarised people to such an extent that you either believe it's true because he says it is or you believe the truth is the exact opposite of what he says.

Thing is, I've a horrible feeling he's opened the door for people similar to him to take the presidency in future; I shudder to think what will happen if you get a person in charge who holds Trump's ideals close to their heart, but is *genuinely* as intelligent as Trump believes himself to be.