Does Santa exist? [poll]

[fiksal]

Let's have some mathematical and philosophical fun.

Read everything (and not just my post) before you make up your mind.

This came out from another discussion, the full question looks like this
- can we prove that Santa Claus, that we commonly imagine, exists or does not exist? Therefore does he exist?

I am explicitly leaving out the answer "I do not know" or "we can not know". You gotta make a decision, or say what do you need in order to do that.


That's it really.

If this is too ambiguous, we may narrow down to a specific Santa, the current pop culture / western / coca cola Santa. (not St Nicolas, not Grandfather Frost or other similar characters).

For example, this is the character that

- lives on the north pole
- has a house full of elves making toys
- can and does deliver all the toys on one or more specific days in a year to all children in the world. (Christmas Eve dates vary, and some deliver on New Years instead).
- keeps track of naughty and nice list for all children
- possibly immortal

[Alan Phipps]

If both options commence 'We can prove ...' then they are not binary alternatives. Both would be false in the situation that you think neither can be proved. <shrugs>

Entering into the spirit though about whether Santa could exist as described (shall we call this 'the North Poll' to make putative existence seem more acceptable?) then it is reasonable to decide that Santa cannot exist as described; that description is known to be a figment of human imagination created as a useful behavioural control and passed on via word of mouth and written story for generation after generation.

[brucewarren]

There are a number of things I would want to ask Santa if I were to meet him.

a) Is the temporal engineering he employs on his famous toy sack available on the open market? On more than one occasion I've
been to the store and the carrier bags I had on me were insufficient. Does the technology also make the contents lighter? When
walking back from the store it would have been handy to have that tech too.

b) What does he use for home insulation? It must be pretty darned cold out there and electricity is not cheap these days.

[RegisterMe]

So of course I voted no

[Vertigo 7]

What about the 3rd option? Santa only exists on a flat Earth.

[Observe]

Let's be logical about this. I've never been to Africa, but I'm told it exists. The case for Santa is even stronger. There are presents under the tree for one. In addition, I've actually seen Santa at shopping malls with kids getting their pictures taken. Logically, there is a greater likelihood for the existence of Santa, than there is for a place called Africa.

[RegisterMe]

Let's be logical about this. I've never been to Africa, but I'm told it exists. The case for Santa is even stronger. There are presents under the tree for one. In addition, I've actually seen Santa at shopping malls with kids getting their pictures taken. Logically, there is a greater likelihood for the existence of Santa, than there is for a place called Africa.

Your forum handle is perfect for this thread .

[Masterbagger]

Yes, Santa is real. Most definitely. You leave cookies and milk out for him and you see the signs of his passage in the morning. Santa is so crafty that the cookie he left behind with a bite taken out of it and the half full glass of milk doesn't even have his DNA on it. He's an old jolly and kind of bigger guy that seems to have an immunity to ingesting mass quantities of dairy and sweets in one night. He must be immune to diabetes and have a powerful digestive system. How does this big guy who consumes all this stuff and has a team of reindeer manage the worlds most epic package delivery without a bathroom break? Do random families wake up and find that their toilet is clogged Christmas morning? If he is helping himself into all of these homes he probably wouldn't hesitate to use the bathroom. I respect his nerve to just go do the deed uninvited.

[fiksal]

If both options commence 'We can prove ...' then they are not binary alternatives. Both would be false in the situation that you think neither can be proved. <shrugs>

Do you think so?
My assertion here is that we can prove either way.

Entering into the spirit though about whether Santa could exist as described (shall we call this 'the North Poll' to make putative existence seem more acceptable?) then it is reasonable to decide that Santa cannot exist as described; that description is known to be a figment of human imagination created as a useful behavioural control and passed on via word of mouth and written story for generation after generation.

So you've just done it then.
What definition of Santa do you think either can exist, or can not be proven one way or another?

Now you also make an interesting point - "known to be a figment of human imagination". Is it really known though? We dont know who invented and when. How can we be sure of that?

There are a number of things I would want to ask Santa if I were to meet him.

a) Is the temporal engineering he employs on his famous toy sack available on the open market? On more than one occasion I've
been to the store and the carrier bags I had on me were insufficient. Does the technology also make the contents lighter? When
walking back from the store it would have been handy to have that tech too.

b) What does he use for home insulation? It must be pretty darned cold out there and electricity is not cheap these days.

Good observations.

The teleportation device that he employs would also be quite interesting. As well as the global surveillance network.

What about the 3rd option? Santa only exists on a flat Earth.

Ah interesting, please explain? The flat earth society flat Earth or 2D plane?

Let's be logical about this. I've never been to Africa, but I'm told it exists. The case for Santa is even stronger. There are presents under the tree for one. In addition, I've actually seen Santa at shopping malls with kids getting their pictures taken. Logically, there is a greater likelihood for the existence of Santa, than there is for a place called Africa.

A good first observation.

Have you seen the same Santa at different malls?
Do you think Elves make better electronics?
Does Britain exist?

I respect his nerve to just go do the deed uninvited.

HM, that does at least explain dirty socks hanging everywhere

[Olterin]

If Santa exists, I'd dearly love to know the hardware and software that is used to calculate the optimal path in just one year (and that's being generous) ... across approximately 4 billion stops. Granted there are some additional constraints (such as timezones) but that doens't help that much. Is the Earth actually Santa's supercomputer to deal with this problem?

[Len5]

SC as a human being cannot exist. Only as a godlike being. But I don't think you wanna go there.

Let's be logical about this. I've never been to Africa, but I'm told it exists. The case for Santa is even stronger. There are presents under the tree for one. In addition, I've actually seen Santa at shopping malls with kids getting their pictures taken. Logically, there is a greater likelihood for the existence of Santa, than there is for a place called Africa.

Well, you could travel to Africa to see it for yourself or see it on pictures from space. (There aren't many pictures with an as Africa disguised Antarctica e.g.)
You can't go to the North Pole and see Santa or the place he supposedly lives. There are no pictures of Santa either. Yes, there are many pictures of real people dressed up like Santa. But you could find out the true identity of all those people and the Santa at the mall.

[Alan Phipps]

@ Fiksal: the important point of my post was not that I could or could not prove Santa's basic or representative existence, but that logically he could not be proven to exist in exactly the detail you described since that detail merely reflected one interpretation of a lasting and widescale imaginary narrative.

I think you are not primarily debating the existence of a Santa, but more the potential existence of his superpowers. Of course if you discount science and logic then we are in the presence of magic and fable where anything is possible, including the coexistence of mutually exclusive conditions (such as your assertain that we *can* prove it either way).

Let's face it, the only possible person who could know the whole truth of it would be Santa (and possibly Mrs Claus) and whatever 'authority' gave the necessary powers. For anyone else it is mere imagination, speculation, sheer hope or some form of faith.

My other comment was that an 'Exclusive OR' poll was not entirely suitable for a case where both statements *could* be considered by some to be false. Indeed, you have inferred that both could be true.

[Axeface]

Simple questioning can disprove any evidence of Santa.
Who purchased that present? Who ate that mince pie? Who got you every single present you ever recieved as a child? Did your parents conscientiously attempt to mislead you and say they didnt buy your presents? (this one is insane).

There is no evidence. It is the same as religion.

And you can build evidence of the existence of Africa in many ways that actually prove it instantly beyond any reasonable doubt.

[fiksal]

that logically he could not be proven to exist in exactly the detail you described since that detail merely reflected one interpretation of a lasting and widescale imaginary narrative.

That's exactly right. But isnt this the sensible way to debate if something exists, by using a specific definition?

A conclusion might be impossible for something more ambiguously defined.

I think you are not primarily debating the existence of a Santa, but more the potential existence of his superpowers. Of course if you discount science and logic then we are in the presence of magic and fable where anything is possible, including the coexistence of mutually exclusive conditions (such as your assertain that we *can* prove it either way).

That's indeed the debate I had going in the "Atheism" thread, here it's mostly Santa.

My assertion that my definition was specific enough that one can prove either way. Not however that can prove positively both.

Let's face it, the only possible person who could know the whole truth of it would be Santa (and possibly Mrs Claus) and whatever 'authority' gave the necessary powers. For anyone else it is mere imagination, speculation, sheer hope or some form of faith.

Is it though? We generally dont need to find a creator of something to know if that something exists.

Simple questioning can disprove any evidence of Santa.
Who purchased that present? Who ate that mince pie? Who got you every single present you ever recieved as a child? Did your parents conscientiously attempt to mislead you and say they didnt buy your presents? (this one is insane).

There is no evidence. It is the same as religion.

And you can build evidence of the existence of Africa in many ways that actually prove it instantly beyond any reasonable doubt.

That's one way indeed, if one were to set up to prove the existence of Santa, and interview all parents. Then one would know everyone made it up. Most likely.

Hm now, maybe we need another thread about parents. It'll be coming!

[Vertigo 7]

What about the 3rd option? Santa only exists on a flat Earth.

Ah interesting, please explain? The flat earth society flat Earth or 2D plane?

Flat earth society, clearly. For a "flat earth" to exist, the laws of physics would have to be thrown out the window, so then it would be possible for some fat creeper to invade every home on a continent in a single night.

[fiksal]

Flat earth society, clearly. For a "flat earth" to exist, the laws of physics would have to be thrown out the window, so then it would be possible for some fat creeper to invade every home on a continent in a single night.

It is interesting what's their take on Santa is

[Vertigo 7]

Flat earth society, clearly. For a "flat earth" to exist, the laws of physics would have to be thrown out the window, so then it would be possible for some fat creeper to invade every home on a continent in a single night.

It is interesting what's their take on Santa is

Is it? The moment they said "The government doesn't want you to know the earth is flat", I stopped paying attention to them and automatically assume anything they say in relation to their assertion is equally wrong and dumb.

[fiksal]

I mostly mean "interesting" as observing the crazy sort.