Should parents tell kids that Santa exists?

[Vertigo 7]

One less lie told in the world. And out on a limb, one less attempt at indoctrinating a child into religious beliefs.

Ah yes, that well-known bible story of the fat old man and his reindeer delivering presents. There's another one a bit later on about a rabbit and some chocolate.

I didn't say it was a bible story, now did I? But you know as well as I do that the mythos of Santa, AKA Saint Nicholas, was born from Christianity. And when asked why Santa only delivers presents on Dec 25, a good little bible thumper will answer "Because that's Jesus's birthday"

[Redvers Ganderpoke]

My daughter who will have her 4th birthday ( )in 3 days time, has stated that Santa Claus doesn't exist but Father Christmas does.

[CBJ]

I didn't say it was a bible story, now did I? But you know as well as I do that the mythos of Santa, AKA Saint Nicholas, was born from Christianity. And when asked why Santa only delivers presents on Dec 25, a good little bible thumper will answer "Because that's Jesus's birthday"

Yes and no. The figure first started out as a pagan "bringer of Spring" who travelled around at mid-winter. Over the centuries the Father Christmas/Santa Claus/Saint Nicholas characters became conflated and merged into one. The religious significance is minimal, and as for religious indoctrination, the main reason your "good little bible thumper" would say that is that they've already been indoctrinated. There's nothing stopping you from presenting "Santa" to children as a non-religious figure, much as there's nothing stopping you from giving presents to your friends at Christmas without putting any thought into the religious significance of it. Or do you not give Christmas presents either?

[Vertigo 7]

I didn't say it was a bible story, now did I? But you know as well as I do that the mythos of Santa, AKA Saint Nicholas, was born from Christianity. And when asked why Santa only delivers presents on Dec 25, a good little bible thumper will answer "Because that's Jesus's birthday"

Yes and no. The figure first started out as a pagan "bringer of Spring" who travelled around at mid-winter. Over the centuries the Father Christmas/Santa Claus/Saint Nicholas characters became conflated and merged into one. The religious significance is minimal, and as for religious indoctrination, the main reason your "good little bible thumper" would say that is that they've already been indoctrinated. There's nothing stopping you from presenting "Santa" to children as a non-religious figure, much as there's nothing stopping you from giving presents to your friends at Christmas without putting any thought into the religious significance of it. Or do you not give Christmas presents either?

Well, spend some time in the SE US and you'll be inundated with hordes of bible thumpers. You'll be hard pressed to find a Christmas reference that's not tied to Christianity around here. Maybe folks aren't so stuck up about religion in your region of the world, but as I said before, that is very much not my experience here. It's called the "Bible Belt" for a reason. =p

[CBJ]

So you live in a part of the world where Christmas is so important to the culture that you can't just relax and let your kids enjoy it. How ironic!

[Vertigo 7]

So you live in a part of the world where Christmas is so important to the culture that you can't just relax and let your kids enjoy it. How ironic!

Who says I'm not relaxed? Does "I DGAF" mean something different where you're from? I'm not the one pushing a lie. I'm quite content with my choice. Why aren't you content with my choice?

[CBJ]

Where I come from "IDGAF" is far from relaxed; indeed it's quite aggressive. It implies that you think your opinion is more important than mine and don't care what I think about the matter.

You're in a different part of the world, so your choice doesn't really make any difference to me. However I'm slight more concerned by why you aren't content with my choice, and seem to be trying to insist that I'm perpetuating a lie rather than just suggesting that maybe kids should be allowed to be kids.

[fiksal]

I suggest we cool this for a second.


In Vertigo's defense, I dont think he's name calling anyone a liar here, at least I dont see it. But fairy stories are synonyms with "made up" which is a synonym with "lies".

In CBJ's defense, Christmas Santa is indeed a cultural thing in (Western) Europe and North America, even when religious context (on the USA's level) is removed from it.



Every parent can choose what they want to do with this topic. While I personally lean towards telling my kid that Santa isnt real, for reasons already stated, I'll not care if other parents say the opposite. My kid will still participate in every appropriate holiday to the fullest. I am sure the same is true for Vertigo.

My daughter who will have her 4th birthday ( )in 3 days time, has stated that Santa Claus doesn't exist but Father Christmas does.

What is Father Christmas? A predecessor of St Nicolas or vice versa?

[Redvers Ganderpoke]

Father Christmas is the UK's traditional name for the entity that used to visit at mid winter. See CBJ's comments further up the page.

[fiksal]

Father Christmas is the UK's traditional name for the entity that used to visit at mid winter. See CBJ's comments further up the page.

Gotcha, so it existed alongside with St Nicolas?

[CBJ]

In Vertigo's defense, I dont think he's name calling anyone a liar here, at least I dont see it. But fairy stories are synonyms with "made up" which is a synonym with "lies".

Apart from this bit.

I'm not the one pushing a lie.

I suggest we cool this for a second.

Yikes, I've been moderated!

Seriously, though, my gentle digs aside, I don't think we're fundamentally as far apart as it might seem, just coming at it from different perspectives because of where we live and the people around us. I'm not in favour of religious indoctrination either, or of lying to children about important things. But I do think that there is a tendency among people who are middle-class and "woke" to get overly serious and worked up about certain things, and to forget that a child's happiness and ability to participate in their social environment are also important. Getting judgemental (see the quote above) about others who take a more relaxed approach is another symptom of this.

But you're right, this should be a lighthearted topic. I didn't intend to lead anyone off down a darker path!

[Vertigo 7]

"IDGAF" means just that, to me... It means I give no ****. I don't loose sleep over it. Aside from this thread, I spend no time worrying over it. What other people choose to teach their kids is completely up to them and it's not like they're coming at me getting all pissy cause my kids don't believe in Santa, as was suggested. Even if that were the case, I would laugh at them and move on with my day.

I qualified my position on here when i said "to me", "for me", etc etc. It's just that, my position. My kids aren't unhappy. I feel like they're doing rather well, as a matter of fact. And they aren't shunned by their peers because they don't believe in Santa.

[Santi]

I didn't say it was a bible story, now did I? But you know as well as I do that the mythos of Santa, AKA Saint Nicholas, was born from Christianity.

But what Christianity? In Spain and most South American countries, Santa didn't exists till recently, and that is due to commercial interests. We always have the three Magi Kings delivering presents on the 6th of January, Epiphany holiday feast day.

It is not about religion indoctrination, but tradition and memories, something you grow up with, and had a powerful yet positive impact during your infancy, and you want to transmit that magical feeling to your kids, and it has practical purposes too.

Tooth fairy for example is a way to alleviate the pain and trauma of losing teeth by parents, by means of a reward and a magical tale. Santa/Three Magi is a way to dote on your daughters and sons with silly amounts of presents without spoiling them, as they come magically.

It also part of their growing up, when they work out that Santa is not real, and many other things too, those are the things that mark a coming of age and make them think and realize that they are not children anymore.

For me it is about imagination, creativity and thinking outside the box, nothing wrong if you use alternative ways to provide those stimulus and share special moments outside of the real world. It is down to what you think is better to your kid, but always bear in mind that the child will grow up, and will make their own assessment, and it may thank you for your honesty, or criticise you for being too clinical.

[Vertigo 7]

Nope, you guys are 100% absolutely right. My kids are completely repressed because I'm not telling them stories about mythical creatures. When they're not at school or eating a meal, they're locked away in the tall tower with no contact from the outside world and they have no TV, no internet, no radio, no books, no toys. No one ever speaks to them until it's time for them to do something. Their world is ruined.

I can be ridiculous too =p

[Santi]

Nobody says they are repressed, this is a forum, if a topic is created like this one asking to discuss a subject, then we discuss it, putting forward our opinions and trying to convince others that we hold the supreme and ultimate truth. There shouldn't be any drama present in the discussion because people have different opinions.

I think kids should experience the Santa experience, others may differ, nobody is right or wrong, it will be the kids when they grow up, the ones to tell you if they agree with that decision or not, when they think about their childhood.

[Vertigo 7]

Nobody says they are repressed,

I beg your pardon, but CBJ did, in so many words. Multiple times.

[Santi]

Nope, you guys are 100% absolutely right. My kids are completely repressed

Edit then? Because the "you guys" seems to refer to all that disagree with you, apologies but that was why I felt the need to respond to that post, again it is about putting forward your arguments about the topic question, nobody is going to convince anyone to change their stance, but it will elaborate and expand on the topic and we may all can learn something from the discussion.

[fiksal]

It is not about religion indoctrination, but tradition and memories, something you grow up with, and had a powerful yet positive impact during your infancy, and you want to transmit that magical feeling to your kids, and it has practical purposes too.

Tooth fairy for example is a way to alleviate the pain and trauma of losing teeth by parents, by means of a reward and a magical tale. Santa/Three Magi is a way to dote on your daughters and sons with silly amounts of presents without spoiling them, as they come magically.

This makes me think that in (Western) Europe, the fairy tales play a larger role in culture than it does in Eastern, or specifically Russia.

Thus this one became a hotter topic than expected.


So, speaking from my cultural background, to read the above is more shocking to me, than children thinking from the start that tooth fairy or Santa were never real.


What I repeat here is not all my words either; there's a book we've been checking out (in Russian) that talks about parents being the 'silent guardian / someone to rely on'. The idea there is not to deviate and not to mislead children on various topics. There are some of those echoes are in Montessori teaching method as well, which favors more realistic and simpler toys, rather than too stylized, too cartoony, or unreal images, as well as more modern materials. Same idea - not to misrepresent the world.

Our kid is a bit too small for Montessori, so we've been sort of doing both - Russian folk tales that do come with human-looking but realistic animals, to more realistic children books, yet still interesting and colorful drawings.

[CBJ]

I beg your pardon, but CBJ did, in so many words. Multiple times.

Woah there, no I didn't. You're the first person in this thread to have used that word. I checked. I said I thought they might be missing out on a few things, but it would be a bit of a stretch to interpret that as repression.

Incidentally, until the last few posts I was actually under the impression that your children were hypothetical. If I'd known they weren't, I would have been more circumspect in the way I phrased things. And on that note, I'm going to drop out of the discussion (unless I get invoked again!).

[Vertigo 7]

It is not about religion indoctrination, but tradition and memories, something you grow up with, and had a powerful yet positive impact during your infancy, and you want to transmit that magical feeling to your kids, and it has practical purposes too.

Tooth fairy for example is a way to alleviate the pain and trauma of losing teeth by parents, by means of a reward and a magical tale. Santa/Three Magi is a way to dote on your daughters and sons with silly amounts of presents without spoiling them, as they come magically.

This makes me think that in (Western) Europe, the fairy tales play a larger role in culture than it does in Eastern, or specifically Russia.

Thus this one became a hotter topic than expected.


So, speaking from my cultural background, to read the above is more shocking to me, than children thinking from the start that tooth fairy or Santa were never real.


What I repeat here is not all my words either; there's a book we've been checking out (in Russian) that talks about parents being the 'silent guardian / someone to rely on'. The idea there is not to deviate and not to mislead children on various topics. There are some of those echoes are in Montessori teaching method as well, which favors more realistic and simpler toys, rather than too stylized, too cartoony, or unreal images, as well as more modern materials. Same idea - not to misrepresent the world.

Our kid is a bit too small for Montessori, so we've been sort of doing both - Russian folk tales that do come with human-looking but realistic animals, to more realistic children books, yet still interesting and colorful drawings.

I get where you're coming from. At it's most basic, very young children have a hard time understanding the difference between fact and fiction. For example, a lot of books and TV shows for toddlers rely on talking animals. While there are certain educational values to many of them, I could also see where it may impart the idea that animals can talk. So there's a bit of counter programming involved. I tend to play a balancing act between things like that and things that are grounded in reality, plus I have a dog so the real world experience helped out there too. Fortunately, they're old enough now that separating fact from fiction isn't as much of a challenge and they're able to enjoy fiction for it's entertainment and not come away with concepts that are false.