Should parents tell kids that Santa exists?

[Vertigo 7]

Nobody says they are repressed,

I beg your pardon, but CBJ did, in so many words. Multiple times.

[Santi]

Nope, you guys are 100% absolutely right. My kids are completely repressed

Edit then? Because the "you guys" seems to refer to all that disagree with you, apologies but that was why I felt the need to respond to that post, again it is about putting forward your arguments about the topic question, nobody is going to convince anyone to change their stance, but it will elaborate and expand on the topic and we may all can learn something from the discussion.

[fiksal]

It is not about religion indoctrination, but tradition and memories, something you grow up with, and had a powerful yet positive impact during your infancy, and you want to transmit that magical feeling to your kids, and it has practical purposes too.

Tooth fairy for example is a way to alleviate the pain and trauma of losing teeth by parents, by means of a reward and a magical tale. Santa/Three Magi is a way to dote on your daughters and sons with silly amounts of presents without spoiling them, as they come magically.

This makes me think that in (Western) Europe, the fairy tales play a larger role in culture than it does in Eastern, or specifically Russia.

Thus this one became a hotter topic than expected.


So, speaking from my cultural background, to read the above is more shocking to me, than children thinking from the start that tooth fairy or Santa were never real.


What I repeat here is not all my words either; there's a book we've been checking out (in Russian) that talks about parents being the 'silent guardian / someone to rely on'. The idea there is not to deviate and not to mislead children on various topics. There are some of those echoes are in Montessori teaching method as well, which favors more realistic and simpler toys, rather than too stylized, too cartoony, or unreal images, as well as more modern materials. Same idea - not to misrepresent the world.

Our kid is a bit too small for Montessori, so we've been sort of doing both - Russian folk tales that do come with human-looking but realistic animals, to more realistic children books, yet still interesting and colorful drawings.

[CBJ]

I beg your pardon, but CBJ did, in so many words. Multiple times.

Woah there, no I didn't. You're the first person in this thread to have used that word. I checked. I said I thought they might be missing out on a few things, but it would be a bit of a stretch to interpret that as repression.

Incidentally, until the last few posts I was actually under the impression that your children were hypothetical. If I'd known they weren't, I would have been more circumspect in the way I phrased things. And on that note, I'm going to drop out of the discussion (unless I get invoked again!).

[Vertigo 7]

It is not about religion indoctrination, but tradition and memories, something you grow up with, and had a powerful yet positive impact during your infancy, and you want to transmit that magical feeling to your kids, and it has practical purposes too.

Tooth fairy for example is a way to alleviate the pain and trauma of losing teeth by parents, by means of a reward and a magical tale. Santa/Three Magi is a way to dote on your daughters and sons with silly amounts of presents without spoiling them, as they come magically.

This makes me think that in (Western) Europe, the fairy tales play a larger role in culture than it does in Eastern, or specifically Russia.

Thus this one became a hotter topic than expected.


So, speaking from my cultural background, to read the above is more shocking to me, than children thinking from the start that tooth fairy or Santa were never real.


What I repeat here is not all my words either; there's a book we've been checking out (in Russian) that talks about parents being the 'silent guardian / someone to rely on'. The idea there is not to deviate and not to mislead children on various topics. There are some of those echoes are in Montessori teaching method as well, which favors more realistic and simpler toys, rather than too stylized, too cartoony, or unreal images, as well as more modern materials. Same idea - not to misrepresent the world.

Our kid is a bit too small for Montessori, so we've been sort of doing both - Russian folk tales that do come with human-looking but realistic animals, to more realistic children books, yet still interesting and colorful drawings.

I get where you're coming from. At it's most basic, very young children have a hard time understanding the difference between fact and fiction. For example, a lot of books and TV shows for toddlers rely on talking animals. While there are certain educational values to many of them, I could also see where it may impart the idea that animals can talk. So there's a bit of counter programming involved. I tend to play a balancing act between things like that and things that are grounded in reality, plus I have a dog so the real world experience helped out there too. Fortunately, they're old enough now that separating fact from fiction isn't as much of a challenge and they're able to enjoy fiction for it's entertainment and not come away with concepts that are false.

[fiksal]

Yep, that's the thinking.

It's not an easy idea to prove, however there's something to it. If we, lets say, look at previous generation or as far back as stone age. Where children would be faster exposed to real world things instead of made up concepts that have questionable educational value.

As all things with kid education that thinking can be wrong in a few years as well. But for now, it seems logical.


It's not easy to fully follow it, so we just try our best basically. As I mentioned before, we still have Russian fairy tales at home that are not like that. Though they are also not all whimsical and happy, as a modern kids' book are.

Yikes, I've been moderated!

Just helping out

[Mightysword]

This feel like something that "yes, you can make it an issue", but "only if you want it to be an issue".

Like, if you want to make it a question "should we lie to kid about Santa?" I guess you can, but then I somehow doubt most parents would ask themselves "to lie or not to lie" when they talk to their kids about Santa. Just like I don't think there is any algebra teachers would make the point of "your first grade math teachers lied to you when they told you it's impossible to do 1 - 2".

I just look at it as part of growing and learning experience, and sometime it's good to have variety. I don't know the curriculum in the west but where I came from, we were taught "personification" as a technique in literature class at like grade 2 or 3, and the examples were often drawn from the very same children stories told in kindergarten - as far as education that's actually a good thing. Same thing with fiction and non-fiction, eventually kids were taught the definition of those, but I think by letting them enjoy the stories first without overburden themselves on the "truth" question, it let them retain the ability to enjoy fiction even once they learnt it's not real. Personally I would think if a kid is constantly taught "fiction is a lie" right out of the gate, it has a good chance of impacting their sense of appreciation of the medium and I think that would be a pity.

What I meant here is that really, you can swing the argument either way. But "variety is the spice of life", and when it comes to kid I believe we shouldn't try to project our own cynicism to them. As an adult you gonna have to pay me these day to sit through a cartoon like Tom&Jerry, but I remember as a kid I was absolutely in love with them, and I don't regret those memories.

[fiksal]

This feel like something that "yes, you can make it an issue", but "only if you want it to be an issue".

Do you mean the original question or evolution of the discussion?

It's not an "issue" in the way that word is usually used.

It's just a question and appears to be a cultural one where different cultures collide. Along with other methodologies.

Like, if you want to make it a question "should we lie to kid about Santa?"

That'd not be a proper poll question.

"your first grade math teachers lied to you when they told you it's impossible to do 1 - 2".

Actually, I dont think my math teachers ever said that, or I have no memory of that. In fact, I dont know of anything any of my math teachers specifically said that turned out to be false in higher levels of math. Including the square root of -1.

I think by letting them enjoy the stories first without overburden themselves on the "truth" question, it let them retain the ability to enjoy fiction even once they learnt it's not real.

I disagree in that I dont see how these concepts are mutually exclusive. Fiction can be enjoyed while knowing it is fiction equally well. I've not seen or read about an example proving this wrong.

What I meant here is that really, you can swing the argument either way. But "variety is the spice of life", and when it comes to kid I believe we shouldn't try to project our own cynicism to them. As an adult you gonna have to pay me these day to sit through a cartoon like Tom&Jerry, but I remember as a kid I was absolutely in love with them, and I don't regret those memories.

I disagree here as well, I don't think this is the case of projecting cynicism. In fact, while I see where you are going, I dont even think you meant to say that word exactly.

My favorite cartoon was "Treasure Island". Made in 80s in Soviet Union.

[Observe]

I think parents should explain to their children, that Santa is one of many false narratives that they will hear in life. It can be an excellent opportunity to assist children in being able to separate fact from fiction. This is an increasingly important skill as people learn to cope with sophisticated market-economy driven stories that seek to manipulate their emotions and their choices.

[Mightysword]

It's just a question and appears to be a cultural one where different cultures collide. Along with other methodologies.

Like I said I had came across a few cultural collection on folklore and I find them to be pretty consistent in both the method and the messages, including the one from Russia (at least the few that was taught in my country thanks to Soviet influence). Don't know the name in English but there was this story about a princess, a greedy king, a hunter with a talking horse. I seriously doubt that the story teller or teacher, even in Russia would open the intro with a disclaimer like "remember kid the story I'm about to tell you is pure fiction, there is no talking horse, and you gonna die if you jump into boiling water whether you're good person or not."

Actually, I dont think my math teachers ever said that, or I have no memory of that. In fact, I dont know of anything any of my math teachers specifically said that turned out to be false in higher levels of math. Including the square root of -1.

Good for you. Most people I talked to shared the experience I mentioned, and I have several text book from different country that says the same things.

I disagree in that I dont see how these concepts are mutually exclusive.

And I never said they were? I said "may impact", in a similar way a prejudice will. Kids tend to be very straight forward in their thinking: lie is bad + fiction is a lie = fiction is bad. I would rather for them to appreciate the story as they are, and it's not like kids won't develop preference for stories they like. Then in time when they learn that fiction is not real, it's less about the "moral" question of "is fiction a lie", but they would look back and ask "even if it was not true, didn't I still enjoyed it back then", and focus too much on the lie part may impair that early appreciation.

Fiction can be enjoyed while knowing it is fiction equally well. I've not seen or read about an example proving this wrong.

Like I said above, it's important to not impose adult's take on thing on kids. Again this come back to the question of "do you want to make it an issue or not". I don't know about you, but the question about "truth" never crossed my mind when it comes to appreciate fictional work. More like the opposite actually. For some, our abilities to enjoy fictional works link directly to how we can connect and convince ourselves the fictional world we see is 'real'. That's why we coin words like "immersion". And to achieve that effect for an adult, a lot of work from both the creators and the viewers are required. Kids simply are able to achieve the samething more naturally, so I don't think adults feel they need to interfere with that. Imagine sitting in a theater trying to enjoy a sci-fi and the person sitting next to you keep nagging "man that's not real, this is just a movie, this never gonna happen yada yada". Now, even if the person is not technically saying something wrong, that would certain put a damper on my ability to enjoy the fiction for what it is, and that would be quite annoying.

In fact, it can be considered even more hypocritical in a way. Seeing adult seeking to experience the same imaginary experience while fussing about it for the kids.

I disagree here as well, I don't think this is the case of projecting cynicism. In fact, while I see where you are going, I dont even think you meant to say that word exactly.

No, I mean exactly what I said, and I'm using the words as I intended. You might not interpret in the way I do, but I'm not choosing the wrong word to express my view here.

[Mightysword]

I think parents should explain to their children,

My question here is though ... do they have to normally? As children develop they will pick up things, facts simply by observation. In fact, it's often understated that kids learn the majority of things through observation rather what being told to them. Things like Santa or puppet shows are something eventually children grow out on their own. Is is actually the case Children in the west will keep believe in Santa unless specifically told otherwise? Kids don't, and shouldn't rely on adult to spoon feed them about every fact of life.

[Vertigo 7]

I think parents should explain to their children,

My question here is though ... do they have to normally? As children develop they will pick up things, facts simply by observation. In fact, it's often understated that kids learn the majority of things through observation rather what being told to them. Things like Santa or puppet shows are something eventually children grow out on their own. Is is actually the case Children in the west will keep believe in Santa unless specifically told otherwise? Kids don't, and shouldn't rely on adult to spoon feed them about every fact of life.

So, spoon feed them a lie, instead and let them figure it out on their own. Gotcha. You should run for president.

[Masterbagger]

In the order of various duties I hold myself to as an adult respecting the innocence of children is up there on the list. If that includes learning more about magical ponies than I ever wished to know and being able to debate who Captain America could beat then so be it. It is no great struggle to give children joy. They eventually grow out of it. The point is instilling something they will pass on.

[Mightysword]

So, spoon feed them a lie, instead and let them figure it out on their own.

Like I said, only if you want to make it a lie. I believe when parents play Santa with their kids the thought of "lying" didn't cross their mind, and thus I feel there is no need to undo it. The way I see it, it's no difference then my parents bought me cartoon simply because I enjoyed watching them as a kid, and I don't recall they ever told me "hey you're too old for those now, stop". Rather I simply grew out of them myself at some point. For me it's simply the process of how a human go through their stages of life, and there are things that can be appreciated more at one stage than at another. My argument is not about morality or even necessity, but simply kids can make memories simply for the shake of making memories without us adults trying to ratifying or rationalizing on their behalf.

Or in a more simple term: I don't see the need of overthinking it.

Gotcha. You should run for president.

See my sig. I've never had a sig in any forum I've been to, but it's getting so ridiculous at this point across several topic already. So this time, next time and any time after this whenever you or anyone else tries to make that kind of comment, all I gonna reply is "See my sig".

[Vertigo 7]

So, spoon feed them a lie, instead and let them figure it out on their own.

Like I said, only if you want to make it a lie.

Da fuq? Facts make it a lie, whether you choose to accept that or not.

[fiksal]

the intro with a disclaimer like "remember kid the story I'm about to tell you is pure fiction, there is no talking horse, and you gonna die if you jump into boiling water whether you're good person or not."

You are correct, it's not needed.

I think I need more concrete examples then, since I am not necessarily talking about works of fiction in general, just Santa's folklore.

My sibling's two kids received presents for Christmas, from parents, and from us. When they were opening them, I was instructed not to say who it was from, since I knew. I didnt understand why initially, but ok. Turns out the kids were repeatedly told it was from Santa, all the gifts they've received from all family members.

This isnt leaving up to kids figuring out, or reading them fairy tales, - this specifically parents choosing to tell the kids that Santa is in fact real, and from what I understand, with the complete Santa's package.

And they believe it, because that's what little kids do when parents tell them about things.

Good for you. Most people I talked to shared the experience I mentioned, and I have several text book from different country that says the same things.

I suppose so. Math was considered important where I was growing up, even in weakest of schools.

Kids tend to be very straight forward in their thinking: lie is bad + fiction is a lie = fiction is bad.

In this case it's useful to associate with a different concept that they see, - the fairy tales, make belief, pretend. Kid understand those.

No, I mean exactly what I said, and I'm using the words as I intended. You might not interpret in the way I do, but I'm not choosing the wrong word to express my view here.

doubting what people say, I think is close to the word skepticism, even though it's sometimes synonyms with cynicism

I think parents should explain to their children, that Santa is one of many false narratives that they will hear in life. It can be an excellent opportunity to assist children in being able to separate fact from fiction. This is an increasingly important skill as people learn to cope with sophisticated market-economy driven stories that seek to manipulate their emotions and their choices.

I agree.

At the very young age, I think it's sufficient to properly place Santa into fairy tales categories, along with all fairy tales characters.

Later on, maybe talk about the ideas of fictions, stories, and factual writings.

[Mightysword]

I suppose so. Math was considered important where I was growing up, even in weakest of schools.

So do most countries, including mine.

In this case it's useful to associate with a different concept that they see, - the fairy tales, make belief, pretend. Kid understand those.

Then why would one make it an issue in the first place?

We don't teach kids sign number when they barely still learn how to count using their finger, that doesn't mean we don't eventually teach them that. Why not just let the kids enjoy stories in those few tender years as they are without burden with the concept of truth/lie fiction/non-fiction? I don't know about your place but in mine they do get taught those concept soon enough when they start the formal education process, I see no point in trying to rush it even earlier for little gain except the sake of our own satisfaction.

doubting what people say, I think is close to the word skepticism, even though it's sometimes synonyms with cynicism

And that's exactly why this is not skepticism. When I say I'm skeptical about something it's merely an expression of doubt, that I'm not entirely convinced but it also means I CAN still be convinced. If you already locked into a certain way of thinking then that's not skepticism, especially when you also project it into other area then that's Cynicism. It has several meaning with 2 prominent one: it is often described as a form of selfishness but in an abstract sense in the way of thinking rather than materialistic, or always assume things happen due to the worst of intention.

This isnt leaving up to kids figuring out, or reading them fairy tales, - this specifically parents choosing to tell the kids that Santa is in fact real, and from what I understand, with the complete Santa's package.

And they believe it, because that's what little kids do when parents tell them about things.

And, have you ask what is the motive, or perhaps even consider to give the situation a positive interpretation?

It could simply be your parents want your sibling enjoy the spirit of the holiday without you spoiling it? I don't know about your siblings but most kids love magical stuffs, receiving a present from relative is certainly a happy occasion, but receiving one from from a magical character feel special. And that can very well be all there is to it. When the thought of "this is bad we're lying" running through your head, and 'cause of your personality or belief such though entirely occupied your thinking process, it's possible at that same very moment those thought does not even register with other adults. They may simply think "I just like to see the kids to have fun", and that's it.

Like I said, if you want to make such occasion warped around the argument of "to lie or not to lie", you certainly can, if you want to make that into a serious issue, then it can get as serious as you want it to be. There is no logical counter-argument to your claim. The point is, not everyone will see your argument as one that they will consider. Remember only you alone can know exactly what you think, and when you star using your own thinking process to explain other action on their behalf, then it becomes a form of cynicism.

[fiksal]

So do most countries, including mine.

That's good to hear.

As in your example, I'd think it's weird and some weak math classes, if something is presented as cant be done, when in reality it can be.
Math must be taught the way math is - exact. Something that was taught early on in Russian schools.

Then why would one make it an issue in the first place?

I am not following what you are asking.

We seem to be agreeing that kids should understand what fairy tales are. Right?

We don't teach kids sign number when they barely still learn how to count using their finger, that doesn't mean we don't eventually teach them that. Why not just let the kids enjoy stories in those few tender years as they are without burden with the concept of truth/lie fiction/non-fiction? I don't know about your place but in mine they do get taught those concept soon enough when they start the formal education process, I see no point in trying to rush it even earlier for little gain except the sake of our own satisfaction.

I am not disagreeing with that. Yes, lets.

And that's exactly why this is not skepticism. When I say I'm skeptical about something it's merely an expression of doubt, that I'm not entirely convinced but it also means I CAN still be convinced. If you already locked into a certain way of thinking then that's not skepticism, especially when you also project it into other area then that's Cynicism. It has several meaning with 2 prominent one: it is often described as a form of selfishness but in an abstract sense in the way of thinking rather than materialistic, or always assume things happen due to the worst of intention.

Ok, I misunderstood you then. In that case it is not applicable neither to me, my questions or my examples.
Moving on.

And, have you ask what is the motive, or perhaps even consider to give the situation a positive interpretation?

Why ask? It's not a mystery why people do it. It's what a lot of people do. For the same reason it's not a mystery why people in Russia do not do that.

It could simply be your parents want your sibling enjoy the spirit of the holiday without you spoiling it?

Ha, that's never been the case.

it's possible at that same very moment those thought does not even register with other adults. They may simply think "I just like to see the kids to have fun", and that's it.

I agree there as well. Some adults do not make that distinction - they do not think this is not telling a truth.

I am not entirely concerned with "Why" however. It's curious, but that's all.

Like I said, if you want to make such occasion warped around the argument of "to lie or not to lie", you certainly can, if you want to make that into a serious issue, then it can get as serious as you want it to be. There is no logical counter-argument to your claim. The point is, not everyone will see your argument as one that they will consider. Remember only you alone can know exactly what you think, and when you star using your own thinking process to explain other action on their behalf, then it becomes a form of cynicism.

Good thing I didnt apply my thinking to anyone's actions yet

Do not get wrapped up yourself in this being a "serious issue" either. There's nothing "serious" or "issue" here. It's not serious to never tell kids that Santa exists, or to never tell them that they get presents from Santa instead of parents.

It is fine to do that.

[Mightysword]

Math must be taught the way math is - exact. Something that was taught early on in Russian schools.

Just like everywhere else. I don' think there is a country out there that will teach math as an in-exact science.

We seem to be agreeing that kids should understand what fairy tales are. Right?
...
I am not disagreeing with that. Yes, lets.

Let's what though? I don't think the point of the discussion have ever been about will we do something or not, rather how and when. I don't think there have been argument here even from the pro-Santa side that advocate to keep kids forever wrapped in a fantasy bubble, I think the push back is mainly about what we perceive as an "interventionist" approach.

- How often do you see someone grow up into an advance age still believing Santa and fairy tale are real? So if the point is to ensure people "eventually" know the truth then there is really no point, since that has always been the case. If you have a 15 years old who still believe in fairy tale then: one - that's an exception, not the norm and two - whatever caused that problem will most likely not lying to the stories that person was told as a 3-5 years old.
- Did you figure out Santa/fairy tale on your own, or did you actually need some to tell you "the truth"? From the way you talked I would assume it's the former (and apology if that's not the case), then what would be the problem of not letting others figure out the same way. Or are you afraid that other kids will not possess the same clarity that you do without being told?

So my answer will be like this: yes, a "person" should eventually understand that, either through self-discovery or proper education. But if you want to say "kids", I have to ask "how early of an age" we're talking about here.

Why ask? It's not a mystery why people do it. It's what a lot of people do. For the same reason it's not a mystery why people in Russia do not do that.

I would recommend against making a blanket statement like that. While I will not challenge your personal experience and my knowledge of it is just a fraction of yours. Still, Russian isn't exactly a mysterious-unknown place to the world, and our circumstantial connection (Soviet) did give me some little peak into it, along side what I gathered on my own (especially about pre-Soviet classical literature), all of that do make me ... "skeptical" ( ) about some of your current claim. I'm not saying you're wrong or making them up btw, just saying it may not be a broad assumption. My country is tiny but different regions have different belief and moral code on certain things that ... let's say as a Southerner there are aspect that I'm closer to Western cultures than to my Northern countrymen, and Russia is a HUGE place. But that's probably a discussion for a different topic.

Good thing I didnt apply my thinking to anyone's actions yet

Do not get wrapped up yourself in this being a "serious issue" either. There's nothing "serious" or "issue" here. It's not serious to never tell kids that Santa exists, or to never tell them that they get presents from Santa instead of parents.

Note that it wasn't just me talking to you, in this topic it's clear I'm on the pro-Santa side against the ... other side, let's put it that way. So it's possible the addresses is more general. And things like lie or religious motive have been brought up quite frequently. I'll just say this:

- On the lie/truth aspect: like I said, not everyone gonna be even think about it. Ask most parents if the purpose of they telling their kids about Santa is simply to "lie" to their children, and I figure most wouldn't even consider the question.
- On the religious aspect: someone already mentioned it but it's better to take something like Santa is better to be viewed as a cultural thing rather than religion. I had said that my Buddhism majority country celebrate Christmas in no less jubilation than a Christian majority country. And it wouldn't make sense for my Buddhist parents to try and indoctrinate me with Christian value about Santa. In fact, celebrate it almost every years for decade and until someone mentioned Jesus birthday somewhere earlier, I never even made that connection.

That's not to say I'm disputing the personal experience that one might had, and how it would effect one's view. But regardless the reason is, be mindful that project one view due to (limited) personal experience into the broader world is often a sign of cynicism (especially when it's a negative sentiment).

[fiksal]

Let's what though? I don't think the point of the discussion have ever been about will we do something or not, rather how and when. I don't think there have been argument here even from the pro-Santa side that advocate to keep kids forever wrapped in a fantasy bubble, I think the push back is mainly about what we perceive as an "interventionist" approach.

Lets read fairy tales to kids.

What is interventionist approach?

- Did you figure out Santa/fairy tale on your own, or did you actually need some to tell you "the truth"? From the way you talked I would assume it's the former (and apology if that's not the case), then what would be the problem of not letting others figure out the same way.

Short answer, I dont remember.

The youngest memory of myself I have is that I didnt think Santa was a real person. There was an attempt by my dad to dress as Santa, but I knew it was him. Most likely because my family neither before that nor after said that Santa was real.
There were no presents from Santa, there were presents from family.

Or are you afraid that other kids will not possess the same clarity that you do without being told?

Yes and no.

My feeling and thinking is the following. Role of parents, one of many roles of parents, is to be teachers. That means teaching the kid of what's good and what's not; what's dangerous, what's not; and many other things about the world. A good teacher is the one who doesnt teach falsehoods.

If I were to live up to this, I can not intentionally and repeatedly teach my kid that Santa is real, that elves are real, and so on and on. Similar I'd not teach that Krampus is real, or Baba Yaga.

While I've not had a reason to think about this topic until recently, I am often inspired by my grandfather, who never told falsehoods. Who I always looked up to for either knowing the answers or honestly saying that he doesnt know and will find out.

But if you want to say "kids", I have to ask "how early of an age" we're talking about here.

Good question.
In my understanding, in US, this is ages 2 to 8 yr old, is when parents tell kids that Santa is real.

and Russia is a HUGE place. But that's probably a discussion for a different topic.

The weakness of the language is that a complex thought takes many words to type Russia indeed is a huge place and beliefs very from place to place.

My observations are centered on average middle class -ish Soviet -sort of family, living in a large cities, dominated by Soviet way of life.
Plus or minus.