Should parents tell kids that Santa exists?

[fiksal]

the intro with a disclaimer like "remember kid the story I'm about to tell you is pure fiction, there is no talking horse, and you gonna die if you jump into boiling water whether you're good person or not."

You are correct, it's not needed.

I think I need more concrete examples then, since I am not necessarily talking about works of fiction in general, just Santa's folklore.

My sibling's two kids received presents for Christmas, from parents, and from us. When they were opening them, I was instructed not to say who it was from, since I knew. I didnt understand why initially, but ok. Turns out the kids were repeatedly told it was from Santa, all the gifts they've received from all family members.

This isnt leaving up to kids figuring out, or reading them fairy tales, - this specifically parents choosing to tell the kids that Santa is in fact real, and from what I understand, with the complete Santa's package.

And they believe it, because that's what little kids do when parents tell them about things.

Good for you. Most people I talked to shared the experience I mentioned, and I have several text book from different country that says the same things.

I suppose so. Math was considered important where I was growing up, even in weakest of schools.

Kids tend to be very straight forward in their thinking: lie is bad + fiction is a lie = fiction is bad.

In this case it's useful to associate with a different concept that they see, - the fairy tales, make belief, pretend. Kid understand those.

No, I mean exactly what I said, and I'm using the words as I intended. You might not interpret in the way I do, but I'm not choosing the wrong word to express my view here.

doubting what people say, I think is close to the word skepticism, even though it's sometimes synonyms with cynicism

I think parents should explain to their children, that Santa is one of many false narratives that they will hear in life. It can be an excellent opportunity to assist children in being able to separate fact from fiction. This is an increasingly important skill as people learn to cope with sophisticated market-economy driven stories that seek to manipulate their emotions and their choices.

I agree.

At the very young age, I think it's sufficient to properly place Santa into fairy tales categories, along with all fairy tales characters.

Later on, maybe talk about the ideas of fictions, stories, and factual writings.

[Mightysword]

I suppose so. Math was considered important where I was growing up, even in weakest of schools.

So do most countries, including mine.

In this case it's useful to associate with a different concept that they see, - the fairy tales, make belief, pretend. Kid understand those.

Then why would one make it an issue in the first place?

We don't teach kids sign number when they barely still learn how to count using their finger, that doesn't mean we don't eventually teach them that. Why not just let the kids enjoy stories in those few tender years as they are without burden with the concept of truth/lie fiction/non-fiction? I don't know about your place but in mine they do get taught those concept soon enough when they start the formal education process, I see no point in trying to rush it even earlier for little gain except the sake of our own satisfaction.

doubting what people say, I think is close to the word skepticism, even though it's sometimes synonyms with cynicism

And that's exactly why this is not skepticism. When I say I'm skeptical about something it's merely an expression of doubt, that I'm not entirely convinced but it also means I CAN still be convinced. If you already locked into a certain way of thinking then that's not skepticism, especially when you also project it into other area then that's Cynicism. It has several meaning with 2 prominent one: it is often described as a form of selfishness but in an abstract sense in the way of thinking rather than materialistic, or always assume things happen due to the worst of intention.

This isnt leaving up to kids figuring out, or reading them fairy tales, - this specifically parents choosing to tell the kids that Santa is in fact real, and from what I understand, with the complete Santa's package.

And they believe it, because that's what little kids do when parents tell them about things.

And, have you ask what is the motive, or perhaps even consider to give the situation a positive interpretation?

It could simply be your parents want your sibling enjoy the spirit of the holiday without you spoiling it? I don't know about your siblings but most kids love magical stuffs, receiving a present from relative is certainly a happy occasion, but receiving one from from a magical character feel special. And that can very well be all there is to it. When the thought of "this is bad we're lying" running through your head, and 'cause of your personality or belief such though entirely occupied your thinking process, it's possible at that same very moment those thought does not even register with other adults. They may simply think "I just like to see the kids to have fun", and that's it.

Like I said, if you want to make such occasion warped around the argument of "to lie or not to lie", you certainly can, if you want to make that into a serious issue, then it can get as serious as you want it to be. There is no logical counter-argument to your claim. The point is, not everyone will see your argument as one that they will consider. Remember only you alone can know exactly what you think, and when you star using your own thinking process to explain other action on their behalf, then it becomes a form of cynicism.

[fiksal]

So do most countries, including mine.

That's good to hear.

As in your example, I'd think it's weird and some weak math classes, if something is presented as cant be done, when in reality it can be.
Math must be taught the way math is - exact. Something that was taught early on in Russian schools.

Then why would one make it an issue in the first place?

I am not following what you are asking.

We seem to be agreeing that kids should understand what fairy tales are. Right?

We don't teach kids sign number when they barely still learn how to count using their finger, that doesn't mean we don't eventually teach them that. Why not just let the kids enjoy stories in those few tender years as they are without burden with the concept of truth/lie fiction/non-fiction? I don't know about your place but in mine they do get taught those concept soon enough when they start the formal education process, I see no point in trying to rush it even earlier for little gain except the sake of our own satisfaction.

I am not disagreeing with that. Yes, lets.

And that's exactly why this is not skepticism. When I say I'm skeptical about something it's merely an expression of doubt, that I'm not entirely convinced but it also means I CAN still be convinced. If you already locked into a certain way of thinking then that's not skepticism, especially when you also project it into other area then that's Cynicism. It has several meaning with 2 prominent one: it is often described as a form of selfishness but in an abstract sense in the way of thinking rather than materialistic, or always assume things happen due to the worst of intention.

Ok, I misunderstood you then. In that case it is not applicable neither to me, my questions or my examples.
Moving on.

And, have you ask what is the motive, or perhaps even consider to give the situation a positive interpretation?

Why ask? It's not a mystery why people do it. It's what a lot of people do. For the same reason it's not a mystery why people in Russia do not do that.

It could simply be your parents want your sibling enjoy the spirit of the holiday without you spoiling it?

Ha, that's never been the case.

it's possible at that same very moment those thought does not even register with other adults. They may simply think "I just like to see the kids to have fun", and that's it.

I agree there as well. Some adults do not make that distinction - they do not think this is not telling a truth.

I am not entirely concerned with "Why" however. It's curious, but that's all.

Like I said, if you want to make such occasion warped around the argument of "to lie or not to lie", you certainly can, if you want to make that into a serious issue, then it can get as serious as you want it to be. There is no logical counter-argument to your claim. The point is, not everyone will see your argument as one that they will consider. Remember only you alone can know exactly what you think, and when you star using your own thinking process to explain other action on their behalf, then it becomes a form of cynicism.

Good thing I didnt apply my thinking to anyone's actions yet

Do not get wrapped up yourself in this being a "serious issue" either. There's nothing "serious" or "issue" here. It's not serious to never tell kids that Santa exists, or to never tell them that they get presents from Santa instead of parents.

It is fine to do that.

[Mightysword]

Math must be taught the way math is - exact. Something that was taught early on in Russian schools.

Just like everywhere else. I don' think there is a country out there that will teach math as an in-exact science.

We seem to be agreeing that kids should understand what fairy tales are. Right?
...
I am not disagreeing with that. Yes, lets.

Let's what though? I don't think the point of the discussion have ever been about will we do something or not, rather how and when. I don't think there have been argument here even from the pro-Santa side that advocate to keep kids forever wrapped in a fantasy bubble, I think the push back is mainly about what we perceive as an "interventionist" approach.

- How often do you see someone grow up into an advance age still believing Santa and fairy tale are real? So if the point is to ensure people "eventually" know the truth then there is really no point, since that has always been the case. If you have a 15 years old who still believe in fairy tale then: one - that's an exception, not the norm and two - whatever caused that problem will most likely not lying to the stories that person was told as a 3-5 years old.
- Did you figure out Santa/fairy tale on your own, or did you actually need some to tell you "the truth"? From the way you talked I would assume it's the former (and apology if that's not the case), then what would be the problem of not letting others figure out the same way. Or are you afraid that other kids will not possess the same clarity that you do without being told?

So my answer will be like this: yes, a "person" should eventually understand that, either through self-discovery or proper education. But if you want to say "kids", I have to ask "how early of an age" we're talking about here.

Why ask? It's not a mystery why people do it. It's what a lot of people do. For the same reason it's not a mystery why people in Russia do not do that.

I would recommend against making a blanket statement like that. While I will not challenge your personal experience and my knowledge of it is just a fraction of yours. Still, Russian isn't exactly a mysterious-unknown place to the world, and our circumstantial connection (Soviet) did give me some little peak into it, along side what I gathered on my own (especially about pre-Soviet classical literature), all of that do make me ... "skeptical" ( ) about some of your current claim. I'm not saying you're wrong or making them up btw, just saying it may not be a broad assumption. My country is tiny but different regions have different belief and moral code on certain things that ... let's say as a Southerner there are aspect that I'm closer to Western cultures than to my Northern countrymen, and Russia is a HUGE place. But that's probably a discussion for a different topic.

Good thing I didnt apply my thinking to anyone's actions yet

Do not get wrapped up yourself in this being a "serious issue" either. There's nothing "serious" or "issue" here. It's not serious to never tell kids that Santa exists, or to never tell them that they get presents from Santa instead of parents.

Note that it wasn't just me talking to you, in this topic it's clear I'm on the pro-Santa side against the ... other side, let's put it that way. So it's possible the addresses is more general. And things like lie or religious motive have been brought up quite frequently. I'll just say this:

- On the lie/truth aspect: like I said, not everyone gonna be even think about it. Ask most parents if the purpose of they telling their kids about Santa is simply to "lie" to their children, and I figure most wouldn't even consider the question.
- On the religious aspect: someone already mentioned it but it's better to take something like Santa is better to be viewed as a cultural thing rather than religion. I had said that my Buddhism majority country celebrate Christmas in no less jubilation than a Christian majority country. And it wouldn't make sense for my Buddhist parents to try and indoctrinate me with Christian value about Santa. In fact, celebrate it almost every years for decade and until someone mentioned Jesus birthday somewhere earlier, I never even made that connection.

That's not to say I'm disputing the personal experience that one might had, and how it would effect one's view. But regardless the reason is, be mindful that project one view due to (limited) personal experience into the broader world is often a sign of cynicism (especially when it's a negative sentiment).

[fiksal]

Let's what though? I don't think the point of the discussion have ever been about will we do something or not, rather how and when. I don't think there have been argument here even from the pro-Santa side that advocate to keep kids forever wrapped in a fantasy bubble, I think the push back is mainly about what we perceive as an "interventionist" approach.

Lets read fairy tales to kids.

What is interventionist approach?

- Did you figure out Santa/fairy tale on your own, or did you actually need some to tell you "the truth"? From the way you talked I would assume it's the former (and apology if that's not the case), then what would be the problem of not letting others figure out the same way.

Short answer, I dont remember.

The youngest memory of myself I have is that I didnt think Santa was a real person. There was an attempt by my dad to dress as Santa, but I knew it was him. Most likely because my family neither before that nor after said that Santa was real.
There were no presents from Santa, there were presents from family.

Or are you afraid that other kids will not possess the same clarity that you do without being told?

Yes and no.

My feeling and thinking is the following. Role of parents, one of many roles of parents, is to be teachers. That means teaching the kid of what's good and what's not; what's dangerous, what's not; and many other things about the world. A good teacher is the one who doesnt teach falsehoods.

If I were to live up to this, I can not intentionally and repeatedly teach my kid that Santa is real, that elves are real, and so on and on. Similar I'd not teach that Krampus is real, or Baba Yaga.

While I've not had a reason to think about this topic until recently, I am often inspired by my grandfather, who never told falsehoods. Who I always looked up to for either knowing the answers or honestly saying that he doesnt know and will find out.

But if you want to say "kids", I have to ask "how early of an age" we're talking about here.

Good question.
In my understanding, in US, this is ages 2 to 8 yr old, is when parents tell kids that Santa is real.

and Russia is a HUGE place. But that's probably a discussion for a different topic.

The weakness of the language is that a complex thought takes many words to type Russia indeed is a huge place and beliefs very from place to place.

My observations are centered on average middle class -ish Soviet -sort of family, living in a large cities, dominated by Soviet way of life.
Plus or minus.

[Chips]

If I have kids who past the age of 4-6 can't work it out for themselves then ... let them continue believing.

I'll also get them a McD's application form for their 16th birthday.