Language.

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greypanther
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Language.

Post by greypanther » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 21:37

After a conversation today, with my brother in law, I wonder what such an international comunity, as can be found on this forum thinks on the subject of learning the language of the country you move to. To me it seems just common courtesy, to learn the language of the people in the country you move to, but not to my brother in law, who thinks they should accomodate him! After all everyone speaks English any way eh? :roll:
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Teladi CEO
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Re: Language.

Post by Teladi CEO » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 21:49

This kid that sat behind me in school thought that French people should learn English because French is too hard......

I think it’s not only courtesy but necessary, my friend is planning to move to Georgia (country) to become an English teacher, she needs to learn to speak Georgian first though.

If you can’t speak the language why move there, sure you can speak in English to ask a word or for something you don’t know the foreign equivalent too. But it is generally rude, and leaves a bad example of the country behind.

My brother comes in contact with a lot of French-Canadians and he struggles to understand them because despite being in the US they refuse to sometimes speak English. (He is bilingual btw, Spanish)
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Olterin
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Re: Language.

Post by Olterin » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 22:09

I mean, if you're moving to the country on a (semi)permanent basis, then it's not only common courtesy, but simply the most practical thing to do to learn the most commonly spoken language(s) there, in my opinion.
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berth
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Re: Language.

Post by berth » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 22:45

Teladi CEO wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 21:49
This kid that sat behind me in school thought that French people should learn English because French is too hard......

I think it’s not only courtesy but necessary, my friend is planning to move to Georgia (country) to become an English teacher, she needs to learn to speak Georgian first though.

If you can’t speak the language why move there, sure you can speak in English to ask a word or for something you don’t know the foreign equivalent too. But it is generally rude, and leaves a bad example of the country behind.

My brother comes in contact with a lot of French-Canadians and he struggles to understand them because despite being in the US they refuse to sometimes speak English. (He is bilingual btw, Spanish)
Good luck to her! Georgian is pretty weird from I gather (wikipedia entry). It's not Indo-European. A friend of mine married a Georgian lady and I've chatted to her about it a bit - even with the basic numbers there's nothing familiar.
Your friend might also need Russian but I don't know if that's necessary (or well received) these days.

I think people appreciate it if you at least make an effort - basic greetings and supermarket survival level stuff.

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Re: Language.

Post by Mightysword » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 22:54

greypanther wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 21:37
After a conversation today, with my brother in law, I wonder what such an international comunity, as can be found on this forum thinks on the subject of learning the language of the country you move to. To me it seems just common courtesy, to learn the language of the people in the country you move to, but not to my brother in law, who thinks they should accomodate him! After all everyone speaks English any way eh? :roll:
Eh I don't think it's even a matter of debate. Forget courtesy, that's just practical. He's free to think whatever he wants, but when he doesn't speak the same language as the people around him, it's him them who will be left out and inconvenience, and he's welcome to deal with all the additional cost associate with not speaking local. :wink:

The only exception is for people who move in their 60 or above, otherwise, buckle up.
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clakclak
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Re: Language.

Post by clakclak » Tue, 16. Feb 21, 23:15

As someone who has lived in a forgein country I always felt kinda stupid. I only know German and English (which was the official language of the country I lived in), but everyone around me was fluent in 3 to 5 languages as the country was rather multilingual.

As for Georgian, from what I can tell it is a beautiful language. My brother (like me a German) started learning it because some of his friends speak it. He fell in love with the language and after only having learned it for two years allready tattoed his entire calf in Georgian. By now he is still not fluent but can hold a conversation fairly well.
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Re: Language.

Post by Mightysword » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 02:05

Learning languages is always one of the subject that fascinated me the most if not "THE" one itself. I had tried to study a few different languages but it's rough doing it yourself. If there is ever a day when I hit it big and don't have to work any more, I definitely will dedicate a lot of the time I have to study new languages.
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Re: Language.

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 03:40

Language is fascinating. Even "within one's own language". Many's the time we've seen wires get crossed here in OT(*)....

I chucked the Economist in the recycling yesterday, which was unfortunate because it was relevant. For example, did you know that no Scandinavian language has a direct translation of the word "please"? For sure there are approximations, like "would you be so kind as to..", but no one word equivalent of the word "please".

Or... in English, we say "good luck", even when we know "luck" will have little to do with the outcome. Whereas in French you can say "bonne chance", ie "good luck", and mean it. Or you might say "bon courage" or "bon fortitude" (etc), which would be unusual if used literally in English. Much finer nuances of the language actually spoken, even if the intent, and understanding, is largely the same.

There are plenty of examples of people getting the wrong end of the stick, when they know each other well, and are speaking the same, first, language. Then introduce a second, or a third, language, with all the cultural, historical, social etc layers of meaning...

EDIT: (*) where the people talking are native English speakers, which, obviously, isn't always the case.
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BrasatoAlBarolo
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Re: Language.

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 09:20

Mottos are the hardest to get, after you get a fair speaking level.
For example, the equivalent to a wish of good luck ("break a leg" in English), in Italian literally translates to "Get in the head of a wolf" (in bocca al lupo).
I wonder how an English speaker is going to receive such "omen".

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Re: Language.

Post by CBJ » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 09:35

Mightysword wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 22:54
Eh I don't think it's even a matter of debate. Forget courtesy, that's just practical.
Regarding the OP's question, this.

On the subject of expressions with amusing literal translations, two of my favourite examples come from German: "tote Hose", which literally translates as "dead trousers" but actually means "dead boring", and "hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette", which comes out as "could have, should have, bicycle chain" meaning roughly "hindsight is a wonderful thing". I also rather like the fact that the French for "it's none of your business" is "c'est pas tes oignons", literally "it's not your onions".

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Re: Language.

Post by clakclak » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 10:29

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Wed, 17. Feb 21, 09:20
Mottos are the hardest to get, after you get a fair speaking level.[...]
That and the right use of honorifics. English is super easy when it comes to that. Just throw an honorary title infront of people's names and you are mostly done with it. German is a bit more complicated with the two different words for "you", which are used depending on a lot of factors that do not always follow clear cut rules. Then there are languages like Oshivambo, Korean or Japanese where it gets even more confusing.

For example when greeting someone in Oshivambo you adress them depending on their age for example "Tate" for "father" and "Tatekulu" for grandfather. Don't get it wrong, that would be not very polite. You will also ask how they are doing, which usually gets you an "eeee" which roughly means "yes/good". Not here comes the fun part. In that answer there is also a hidden question about how you yourself are doing wich you answer by saying "eeee" as well. Upon that the other person will say "eeee" again. Usually it is up to the older person to decide when this back and forth of "eeee" ends. It can go on quite a bit. It get's even longer when you have an old grandma starts collecting hands. She will take your hand greet you the formal way, then hold on to your hand while collecting the hands of other people and greet them. You can not leave because she is holding on to you and leaving now would not be very polite. I have had times where there was a bubble of around 7 or 8 people standing around one old lady while she held our hands and continued greeting even more people. It is something I found to be both endearing and quite inefficient.
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Re: Language.

Post by Gavrushka » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 11:17

CBJ wrote:
Wed, 17. Feb 21, 09:35
Mightysword wrote:
Tue, 16. Feb 21, 22:54
Eh I don't think it's even a matter of debate. Forget courtesy, that's just practical.
Regarding the OP's question, this.

On the subject of expressions with amusing literal translations, two of my favourite examples come from German: "tote Hose", which literally translates as "dead trousers" but actually means "dead boring", and "hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette", which comes out as "could have, should have, bicycle chain" meaning roughly "hindsight is a wonderful thing". I also rather like the fact that the French for "it's none of your business" is "c'est pas tes oignons", literally "it's not your onions".
I speak a little of a few languages, and have friends from many different countries, including China.

Many, many years ago, I helped out my friends in their takeaway, and Annie, the Chinese lady I was working with, spoke next to no English. - Anyhow, a customer asked for his food to be well wrapped because he'd a long distance to travel, so I related it to her by saying 'hau bau' (or something similar - it's decades ago) which literally means 'well wrapped.' - Anyhow, Annie shouted 'stupid' and started taking the food back out the back. - I was confused as to what she was doing, but after a mixing a little Haka and English, we worked out that the phrase I'd used 'well wrapped' translated as 'very full.' - So she'd surmised the customer had decided he wasn't hungry after ordering...

I lived in Russia for a while, back in the 90s, and I always tried to speak in Russian, but one word I simply couldn't get many to understand was 'Parliament' - and that was a far bigger issue than you might imagine, because that happened to be my favoured brand of cigarette ( I stopped smoking long ago.) - But what was most notable was how other customers would leap to my rescue every time and, in my mind, say the word 'Parliament' exactly how I just said it to the shop assistant.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

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Re: Language.

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 11:46

I observed a probably quite well-travelled (going by luggage stickers) American businessman/tourist on arrival from an international flight at Heathrow Airport, London who adopted his probable standard tactic used at airport arrivals. This involved loudly asking the arrivals hall in general "Does anyone here speak English?"

I used to attend international meetings that used real-time interpretation for business but we would meet up socially around them and try out our language skills. The standing joke there was "What do you call people who speak many languages? - Multilingual. What do you call people who speak two languages? - Bilingual. What do you call people who only speak one language? - British."
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Re: Language.

Post by Mightysword » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 17:21

One of my favorite in English:

- I bombed this exam: which will certainly confuse any person new to the language, 'cause it's almost certain no one was taught to use the word bomb in that context. But let's say the person learnt and now associate the word bomb = doing badly. Then let says later the person cooked you a meal of their culture, then asked if it taste good ...

- This is the bomb!: can you imagine the sadness of the person receiving such compliment? :D
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Re: Language.

Post by Roeleveld » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 18:04

At the risk of repeating the same, common courtesy: You learn the local language.
Or at the very least, you try.

An exception to this is when in a country where the natives are rather annoying and want to use you to practice your language. Then it will be extremely difficult.

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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 20:58

Alan Phipps wrote:
Wed, 17. Feb 21, 11:46
What do you call people who only speak one language? - British."
I would alter the last word in that sentence, to English. The Welsh for instance are very often Bilingual, indeed for many Welsh people, Welsh is their first language. That is the problem for my brother in law, he moved to Wales, just less than an hours drive away from where he was born in England, but seemed to be shocked that some of his new neighbours, routinely speask Welsh, among themselves. He thinks they should speak English, which seems to me, to be very arrogant. I can really understand why many in North Wales despise the English. :roll:

My sister moved to the Hebrides, where again, for many English is really a second language, though not as prevalent as among the Welsh. She has tried to learn Gaelic, but has struggled, though her neighbours really apreciated her trying, help when they can. ( Maybe laugh a little too! )

I have looked at learning Welsh, but it seems to be very difficult, more so than Gaelic. I have also threatened to finally learn German, but never seem to get around to it, not least because travel is out of the question for me. :)
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Re: Language.

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 21:12

I am Welsh by birth and the locals there (especially in North Wales) are often quite capable, as you say, of using either language. However, the moment a 'newcomer' arrives and uses only English with no attempt to even try some Welsh, they will likely and exclusively use Welsh around them. If an English tourist for example were to have gone into a pre-Covid N Wales country pub and just ordered in English, then everyone local would likely switch or stay in Welsh. However, if the tourist made even a token effort at ordering in Welsh, or even asked somebody how to, then some locals would probably be happy to help out by translating and advising.

Of course a few pranks may be played as well in suggesting a few Welsh phrases that may not be strictly accurate ... :roll:

I was also stationed for a few years in the Western isles, Hebrides, and the problem there was not so much the Gaelic as the local dialect of it! (Especially after a dose or two of whisky.)
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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 21:24

I have witnessed that Alan, as a child in a pub with my father ordering in English.

An old school mate had his brother very badly beaten up, because of his arrogance/attitude, on display in a pub in South Wales. Hospitalised in fact. Never got to the bottom of that...
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Re: Language.

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 02:12

Another important thing is it can create a very strong first impression. I think this is something that the English speaking countries miss out due to how widely learnt it is, so it's kinda taken for granted. Someone from a non-English speaking country going to say ... England or US probably will not create a strong impression even if they can speak English, because the local are just like so what?

But in my experience if you come to non-English speaking countries and look unambiguously foreign, the local tend to be very impressed if they see you speak local, even if in broken dialect. And that good first impression tend to work out really well for you be it a tourist or entrepreneur. It's similar to what some already mentioned above, and I think it's a world wide thing.
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Re: Language.

Post by Chips » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 11:03

Always try learning the language - not only does it help develop / improve you - but as others say it's practical, courteous. It helps you integrate (you want to get to know people wherever you've gone right? If they can't communicate they're unlikely to keep inviting you out/round), and as an absolute last reason - it gives awesome opportunities to meet and interact with others without just seeming to be weird. Always seems more sociable when a foreign stranger comes up and tries to talk as they're needing help - so a great icebreaker.

Extra kudos if you know a few words that are easily mistaken / sound similar - nothing lightens the mood as saying something inappropriate in genuine accident. At least that's what my Greek speaking supervisor at uni told me when apparently I mis-pronounced a word so actually said "kiss" in a certain context with her sister :twisted:
An old school mate had his brother very badly beaten up, because of his arrogance/attitude, on display in a pub in South Wales. Hospitalised in fact. Never got to the bottom of that...
That's both horrific and abhorrent. Regardless of the persons objectionable attitude, that level of intolerance and outright violence has no place in society.
Last edited by Chips on Thu, 18. Feb 21, 17:35, edited 1 time in total.

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