Language.

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greypanther
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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 20:58

Alan Phipps wrote:
Wed, 17. Feb 21, 11:46
What do you call people who only speak one language? - British."
I would alter the last word in that sentence, to English. The Welsh for instance are very often Bilingual, indeed for many Welsh people, Welsh is their first language. That is the problem for my brother in law, he moved to Wales, just less than an hours drive away from where he was born in England, but seemed to be shocked that some of his new neighbours, routinely speask Welsh, among themselves. He thinks they should speak English, which seems to me, to be very arrogant. I can really understand why many in North Wales despise the English. :roll:

My sister moved to the Hebrides, where again, for many English is really a second language, though not as prevalent as among the Welsh. She has tried to learn Gaelic, but has struggled, though her neighbours really apreciated her trying, help when they can. ( Maybe laugh a little too! )

I have looked at learning Welsh, but it seems to be very difficult, more so than Gaelic. I have also threatened to finally learn German, but never seem to get around to it, not least because travel is out of the question for me. :)
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Re: Language.

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 21:12

I am Welsh by birth and the locals there (especially in North Wales) are often quite capable, as you say, of using either language. However, the moment a 'newcomer' arrives and uses only English with no attempt to even try some Welsh, they will likely and exclusively use Welsh around them. If an English tourist for example were to have gone into a pre-Covid N Wales country pub and just ordered in English, then everyone local would likely switch or stay in Welsh. However, if the tourist made even a token effort at ordering in Welsh, or even asked somebody how to, then some locals would probably be happy to help out by translating and advising.

Of course a few pranks may be played as well in suggesting a few Welsh phrases that may not be strictly accurate ... :roll:

I was also stationed for a few years in the Western isles, Hebrides, and the problem there was not so much the Gaelic as the local dialect of it! (Especially after a dose or two of whisky.)
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greypanther
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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Wed, 17. Feb 21, 21:24

I have witnessed that Alan, as a child in a pub with my father ordering in English.

An old school mate had his brother very badly beaten up, because of his arrogance/attitude, on display in a pub in South Wales. Hospitalised in fact. Never got to the bottom of that...
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Re: Language.

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 02:12

Another important thing is it can create a very strong first impression. I think this is something that the English speaking countries miss out due to how widely learnt it is, so it's kinda taken for granted. Someone from a non-English speaking country going to say ... England or US probably will not create a strong impression even if they can speak English, because the local are just like so what?

But in my experience if you come to non-English speaking countries and look unambiguously foreign, the local tend to be very impressed if they see you speak local, even if in broken dialect. And that good first impression tend to work out really well for you be it a tourist or entrepreneur. It's similar to what some already mentioned above, and I think it's a world wide thing.
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Chips
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Re: Language.

Post by Chips » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 11:03

Always try learning the language - not only does it help develop / improve you - but as others say it's practical, courteous. It helps you integrate (you want to get to know people wherever you've gone right? If they can't communicate they're unlikely to keep inviting you out/round), and as an absolute last reason - it gives awesome opportunities to meet and interact with others without just seeming to be weird. Always seems more sociable when a foreign stranger comes up and tries to talk as they're needing help - so a great icebreaker.

Extra kudos if you know a few words that are easily mistaken / sound similar - nothing lightens the mood as saying something inappropriate in genuine accident. At least that's what my Greek speaking supervisor at uni told me when apparently I mis-pronounced a word so actually said "kiss" in a certain context with her sister :twisted:
An old school mate had his brother very badly beaten up, because of his arrogance/attitude, on display in a pub in South Wales. Hospitalised in fact. Never got to the bottom of that...
That's both horrific and abhorrent. Regardless of the persons objectionable attitude, that level of intolerance and outright violence has no place in society.
Last edited by Chips on Thu, 18. Feb 21, 17:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Language.

Post by clakclak » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 11:44

While we are allready on languages, is anyone among us capable of signing in (a) sign language?
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Re: Language.

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 15:22

My granddaughter was being taught very basic signing at nursery school. Apparently it helps to improve structure in early 'normal' conversation development as well as having obvious advantages for diversity inclusion. She insisted on teaching what she knew to the rest of us. :)
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Re: Language.

Post by Roeleveld » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 15:56

clakclak wrote:
Thu, 18. Feb 21, 11:44
While we are allready on languages, is anyone among us capable of signing in (a) sign language?
Not me, but there are some coffee-corners in certain companies where the staff is deaf. To order a coffee, you need to use sign-language. (The menu helpfully shows the signs to use)

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red assassin
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Re: Language.

Post by red assassin » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 17:26

I know a little basic BSL, which is occasionally useful. Turns out I don't find signs any easier to retain than any other vocabulary, unfortunately, so I'm rather limited in what I can say. I'm definitely in favour of it being taught young in schools.
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Re: Language.

Post by Mightysword » Thu, 18. Feb 21, 18:01

red assassin wrote:
Thu, 18. Feb 21, 17:26
Turns out I don't find signs any easier to retain than any other vocabulary, unfortunately.
This is the worst thing about learning any language: retention. I committed about 2 years in learning Japanese once, then something happened and I couldn't touch it for 6-8 months. It was extremely discouraging when I come back to it and realize how much I already forgot. :(
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Re: Language.

Post by RegisterMe » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 02:46

Chips wrote:
Thu, 18. Feb 21, 11:03
Extra kudos if you know a few words that are easily mistaken / sound similar - nothing lightens the mood as saying something inappropriate in genuine accident. At least that's what my Greek speaking supervisor at uni told me when apparently I mis-pronounced a word so actually said "kiss" in a certain context with her sister :twisted:
At the risk of cross-posting, this made me laugh:-

https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/c ... ke_french/
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Re: Language.

Post by pjknibbs » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 07:50

It's said that Napoleon once triggered the accidental execution of hundreds of people by complaining about his cough (Ma sacree toux!) which was misheard by his subordinates as "Massacrez tous!" (Massacre them all!). I mean, those two phrases aren't really pronounced exactly the same in French (the "S" in "tous" is sounded for a start), and there's absolutely no historical record of anything like this happening, but it's a cool story.

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Re: Language.

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 09:00

Well... A friend of mine ordered a large Coke at a bar in London, but that didn't sound quite right... I suggested him to always order scotch.

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Re: Language.

Post by Gavrushka » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 09:34

I thought my ex wife was considering a public act of infidelity many, many years ago. - We'd been helping out in my mum's fish & chip shop one Saturday evening, and a lad of 17 or 18 came in and asked for a bag of chips, open. Well Annushka (Russian) served him and then asked ' do you want a f**k*' with me stood just there, lower jaw somewhere near my navel. - She repeated it a second time, when he just flushed, glanced at me and considered how to answer (she was ridiculously attractive - I'd sure overachieved.) - Anyhow, on the third repetition she picked up a plastic fork and waved it at him. I remember shouting 'fork, she means fork' with a ridiculous helping of glee...

And I remember her fury on discovering one word wasn't pronounced how she'd expected (she'd been my interpreter in Russia.) - She asked in a shop for some 'Seesam' seeds, and what a potty mouth she had when I pointed out it was 'Sesame' (Sess-am-E for any ESL forum users who may not know the pronunciation.)
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 16:23

Gavrushka, you never holidayed in the Lake District with her in the 80's did you? I only ask because my one and only encounter with a Russian woman, was with one with a real potty mouth, very pretty, with her boyfriend, getting very angry in Glenridding. He seemed to be exasperated and was a little potty mouthed too!
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Re: Language.

Post by Gavrushka » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 17:43

greypanther wrote:
Fri, 19. Feb 21, 16:23
Gavrushka, you never holidayed in the Lake District with her in the 80's did you? I only ask because my one and only encounter with a Russian woman, was with one with a real potty mouth, very pretty, with her boyfriend, getting very angry in Glenridding. He seemed to be exasperated and was a little potty mouthed too!
Oh Lord, I hope not, because at the start of the 80s, she was busy being 4!

It'd be a very unusual sight to see any Russians/Eastern Europeans holidaying here in the 80s as the Warsaw Pact didn't dissolve until 91. - She was likely a spy or someone in the upper echelons in their 'some animals are more equal than others' society...

But, yeah, I have been known to have a bit of a potty mouth too... :oops:
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 20:20

Gavrushka wrote:
Fri, 19. Feb 21, 17:43
Oh Lord, I hope not, because at the start of the 80s, she was busy being 4!
Only 4? I am surprised because I had always assumed you were about my age, maybe a bit older. Late 50's I thought! :P Therefore I asumed she would be a similar age...

As for her being Russian well, I have to admit I could not be at all certain, mostly assumptions on my part I guess. I went to school with a lad with an unpronounceable Polish name, who used to take great pleasure in teaching us Russian swear words. Polish ones too. ( I remember none of them of course... ) His father came to the UK after WW2, supposedly was in Colditz and helped to build a glider there. His dad was in his 60's (?) when my friend was born. Luckily, they had anglicised their name, so it was manageable.

My only defence is that I was only late teens, early twenties, so very naive. :roll:
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Re: Language.

Post by Gavrushka » Fri, 19. Feb 21, 21:05

We are similar in age. Don't judge me... LOL.

Yeah, it is very, very hard to distinguish between Eastern European languages, but there were a few (far too few) second and third generation Poles around in the 80s, and they did seem to hold their accent. The first doctor I remember back in the late 60s, early 70s, was 'Dr Cutts' who'd been a young man when he'd escaped Poland after Hitler invaded. Dr Cutts, what a name! And what a wonderful man. - He always looked forward to my mum's appointments because it meant he could have a cigarette.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

greypanther
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Re: Language.

Post by greypanther » Sat, 20. Feb 21, 21:09

Gavrushka wrote:
Fri, 19. Feb 21, 21:05
Don't judge me... LOL.
Sorry, did not intend to sound judgemental.

My school friend of Polish descent, had no Polish accent as he was born in Blackpool. I think his father had already died, but Andrew was very proud of him, told tales of him building the glider in a loft space in Colditz. He was proud of his dad being a troublemaker... :roll:

Edit: I just looked up the glider story, out of curosity and find it was British officers who built it. How odd, if I knew where he was, I would ask Andy about this! Of course, there was no internet back in the 80's...
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Alan Phipps
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Re: Language.

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 20. Feb 21, 21:59

I'm sure the Polish Colditz POW contingent and their resources will have been discretely organised in some way to help with decoying, storage, toolmaking and supplies used for the glider and launch construction, even if they didn't know details of the British project at the time.
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