W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

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Vertigo 7
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 11:30

huh? In what way is that "directing user activity to business partner's sites"

I know you don't use windows so you may not understand how this works. Certain apps create URI calls in the registry that define a simple command line that can invoke an application to carry out a substring execution within that app. For example, using microsoft-edge://http(s)://<website> opens an Edge window to that particular website specified. There's also additional switches that can be invoked trim down the browser to hide the navigation bar and favorites and what not.

With *maybe* (haven't checked, don't know) the exception of some links in a help file, there's nothing anywhere that's not user created that calls edge like that. Why someone would want an app to override the explicitly called app in that case is baffling. Likely some tool trying to skirt around school/workplace defined links on school/workplace owned and managed devices. It'd be far easier to just recreate their links with whatever browser and if the browser's installer didn't create its own URI scheme, users can create their own with a little bit of know how.

Anyway, overriding the URI call would only result in whatever browser they want to go to the same site so.... :? :? :?

This is the dumbest "ooo microsoft dun bad" thing since the accusation of MS forcing people to use one drive despite being presented the option to say yes or no to doing so.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 12:05

You're not using a free OS, so you may not understand the background of this.

Users are forced to use MS's browser edge. In the end, from front end to server actvivity MS can analyze user behaviour and direct them to where more money is generated. Opting out, e.g. to a browser that is not vendor specific, is complicated or impossible.

I mean, it's people's choice to use the OS. You know my tendency ;-)

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 12:18

BS!!!!!!

People can install and use any browser they want. Outside of managed networks, users are free to do as they please. Dunno what garbage heap forums have misled you, but mislead you are, none the less.

Yes, Edge is preinstalled and set as the default browser in W11/recent W10. So what? It's not a locked setting. If you don't use it, it doesn't run. And despite what you believe, Edge isn't harvesting data. In fact, when you start it the first time, it asks you explicitly what privacy settings and protections to set. And there's the world of plugins and what not too. It's allllll up to the user.

You're acting like Windows is 24/7 advertisements. I haven't seen 1 ad. Not one anywhere in W11 and what few I saw in 10 were only in default tiled apps that were easily removed. OOOO.... so much revenue!

Come on man. You've admitted yourself you haven't used windows in years. It's obvious you don't have the firsthand experience to back up any of your claims.

As a matter of fact, a few months ago, googly goo started testing some BS that grouped users together based on their browsing habits, effectively negating a user's ability to block cookies and is something they can't opt out of in Chrome, all for the purpose of targeted advertising. MS was among the first to nip that BS in the bud and did not bring that code into their fork of Chromium.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 12:44

Stop shouting at me so aggressively ! You're blinded by Microsoft and defending their behaviour aggressively, barking loudly at common criticism. I was citing from the article. MS has been fined before for forcing people to use their browser and locking others out. This has been an issue, it is an issue, and it looks like it will continue to be one.

Let's keep it civil, ok ?

Apart from that, and as a simple example, it should be pretty obvious that people are likely to not get the best offers for a product when using an OS/browser/backend combination that limits free access, than when using equipment that doesn't do that. Locking out competition can lead to expensive and scrappy products.
Last edited by BaronVerde on Fri, 12. Nov 21, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 12:49

lol I'm not shouting at you. Stop being so sensitive.

I can't help it the article was BS. I can't help it that people see stuff like that and treat it as Armageddon when it's a big ol' nothing burger. I'm stating facts. You're regurgitating demonstrably false information. There's really nothing else to say. If you wish to continue to spread misinformation, don't be shocked when it gets called out.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 12:53

*lol* Accepted.

It is not the only article that criticizes MS (and, for that matter, google's as well for their product line) behaviour.

I even buy better and cheaper at local shops than at amazon ... i say that to put some emphasis on free choice.
Yes, there are local shops here.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 13:14

Well yeah. MS is the company that everyone loves to hate. They're not perfect, and yeah, they've made some bad decisions before. But that doesn't mean that everything is the shit show that people try to make it out to be.

Here's the trend that maybe you haven't caught before. When one website posts an article, there's gonna be 50 others that will post the same damn thing. Then you get the youtube personalities to spout it, and then suddenly everyone is like "OMG WORST THING EVER" without having any actual understanding of what's going on.

Again, I'll point out, in this particular case, there's nothing I've come across that uses the URI call to force edge on a user. I've been using 11 for months now and I've never had edge randomly open on me and display some advertisement, or anything for that matter. It just doesn't do that.

Edge is replacing Internet Explorer. Here soon, I forget exactly when, within a year maybe? IE will be put to rest finally and forever. The OS has to have a default browser on new installs. That's just common sense. Even desktop distros of Linux come with usually Firefox or Chromium. But in no case is a user limited to using that browser. Yes, Edge can't be removed. But again, if it's not opened, it ain't running. Also, it's kind of a safety net for the morons that might go uninstall their favorite browser and then suddenly.... uh oh... they no longer have a browser to go get it back.

Also, as Windows is heavily used in the work place, management policies are going to be enforced on Edge instead of IE. The only other browser that I'm aware of that has any kind of enterprise management capabilities is Chrome. Most work places won't allow users to install 3rd party browsers because they don't want to have to provide end user support for them and they can tailor their apps to the browser of choice for the orgs.

I've been doing this for 20 something years now, personally and professionally. I've seen all this bs up one side and down the other and it's the same ol' song and dance. MS brings something new to the table, people try to go out of their way to rip it apart.

And it isn't that I have any particular love for MS. Honestly, I could care less. When/if something better comes along, I'll look into it. I'm not afraid to try new things and that includes Linux, which yes, I use and I still f'n hate it. But I get more done, faster and easier, with Windows than I do with anything else so that's what I'm going to continue to use.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 13:39

All nice and well, but in the end the common denominator of the criticism boils down to "forcing people to use a product limits their free choice, suppresses competition, and narrows and redirects information flow".

That's the reason why MS has been fined before. That's why we have anti-trust laws.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 13:51

But they're not forcing it. That's what I think maybe you're not getting. Day one of a new install of Windows, the user can open up edge, go download Opera if that's what they want, and install it, close edge, fire up Opera and never see Edge again. Every web browser I've seen pops up a notification and says something along the lines of "Hey I'm not the default browser, change it to me pretty please?" and that pesky yes or no dialogue box is presented with that tedious choice. It's not a difficult process in the least.

If by forcing the URI call of Edge to open Edge is your gripe... well yeah! That's a buried setting in the registry that probably shouldn't be messed with. Chrome creates its very own Chrome:// URI call (i think it is) and no one is up in arms over that or trying to rewrite it.

Not to mention, if whatever browser the user wants is their default browser, then anytime they click on a generic http URL, it'll open that browser and not edge.

This whole URI call for microsoft-edge:// is such a non-issue. That'd be like you typing 'nano' and getting mad that vim didn't open.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 14:28

It is apparently not that simple, but also not impossible ... yet.

From the text; "This" refers to redirecting the edge protocol to the edge renderer no matter which default browser has been set by the user:

"This is on top of Microsoft making it tedious to change the default browser on Windows 11 from Edge: in the system settings, you have to navigate to Apps, then Default apps, find your preferred installed browser, and then assign all the link and file types you need to that browser, clicking through the extra dialog boxes Windows throws at you. Your preferred browser may be able to offer a shortcut through this process when you install it or tell it to make it your default."

Honestly, I would assume that MS still intercepts user inputs and visited links, and be it only for the "user experience".

... and:

"They’re putting up more barriers and are being more aggressive now than they were in the past when they were hit with antitrust fines. (E.g. removing the default browser settings from Windows Setting, making it more difficult to programmatically change the default browser, prompting the user to 'choose Edge' after every system update, hiding/unpinning other browsers from your taskbar.) On top of this, they’re using these horrid microsoft-edge:// links in very prominent places in the OS to bypass the default browser setting entirely."

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 14:34

This is blown way out of proportion. It's just an alias for c:\program files\microsoft\edge\application\msedge.exe. And the only way that gets called is if the user creates a link that specifies microsoft-edge://

I don't understand how any of that is something that MS should be taken to task for. Seems like the simple solution is for users to not create those links if they don't want edge to open with it lol. If they do it anyway, it's their own damn fault.


Again, the article is BS.
Your preferred browser may be able to offer a shortcut through this process when you install it or tell it to make it your default.
Every browser I've ever seen offers that option. This is just biased nonsense.

I'm telling ya dude, the URI call is NOT used unless a user creates a link for it. I cannot imagine any realistic use case where someone would want to create a link that explicitly calls for Edge to open but they want some other browser to open it instead. If thats what they want, they should shut down their pc, box it up, return it to walmart, and never buy another computer ever again.

*edit

Have you considered the possibility that the article is click bait for that website to generate ad revenue themselves?

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by pjknibbs » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 16:34

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 12. Nov 21, 14:34
This is blown way out of proportion. It's just an alias for c:\program files\microsoft\edge\application\msedge.exe. And the only way that gets called is if the user creates a link that specifies microsoft-edge://
I think it's worth noting that 99% of users likely have never attempted to bypass that particular protocol. I just did microsoft-edge://www.bing.com in Windows 10 and it, as expected, opened in Edge (after asking me if I was sure). I've never seen Edge open in any Windows 10 install I've ever used unless I actually launched it myself, and I see no reason to assume things will be any different in Windows 11.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 12. Nov 21, 16:48

pjknibbs wrote:
Fri, 12. Nov 21, 16:34
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 12. Nov 21, 14:34
This is blown way out of proportion. It's just an alias for c:\program files\microsoft\edge\application\msedge.exe. And the only way that gets called is if the user creates a link that specifies microsoft-edge://
I think it's worth noting that 99% of users likely have never attempted to bypass that particular protocol. I just did microsoft-edge://www.bing.com in Windows 10 and it, as expected, opened in Edge (after asking me if I was sure). I've never seen Edge open in any Windows 10 install I've ever used unless I actually launched it myself, and I see no reason to assume things will be any different in Windows 11.
I don't see any reason either. But, I'd say the percentage is even higher than that. I created a shortcut with one of those links myself a while back to use with Plex in a browser window with no navigation bars and what not. I only switched to the native Plex app because it has full h.265 support where most browsers only have limited implementations of it, if at all. In all other cases, any generic shortcut will work for any browser. No reason to over complicate the tried and true method of opening up a web page. Beyond that, I've had absolutely 0 reason to create an edge specific hyper link. Or... any browser specific hyperlink.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 13. Nov 21, 22:32

Yep, but it shows that Windows does bypass the user choice of browser and opens Edge, so the source is no BS. And pls lets keep it civil because it is an interesting discussion and only then a rivalry if we make it one.

Here's where imo the "clash of cultures" (I hate the term) happens. I don't think it is good idea not to care about what the OS and its components does, and willingly give away control of the pc to a single manufacturer. Even if that manufacturer was totally beneficial, the user depends on their goodwill and eagerness to disclose flaws and publish patches. I included "its components" because I also think it is a bad idea to unconcernedly install undocumented third party products under Linux as well, as we are gamers that certainly includes any sort of steam- oder gog-clients, for me as well for instance mono-devel, google products, or game engines that depend on them.

As logn as there is a solution OS wise that is fully documented, has no secrets (that would actually exclude parts of the xubuntu's and is the reason why they are sometimes called the windows among the linuxes) and at least gives the user the ability to do everything on their own, even if they don't take that chance, I prefer and advocate for that one. Even if I am cut of from many game experiences, for me it is just not worth it to have my horizon shorted.

Btw. W11 installer was hacked before it was released. That was possibkle because windows people usually don't check on their own if the installer actually is what it appears to be (is that even possible ?), Linux gives people the means to do so. People download it and (should instinctively) doubt the source and check it. It needs some learning or at least a how to, but so does driving a car, and nobody questions driving schools.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 14. Nov 21, 07:24

This is beyond tiresome. I know you just want a reason to bash microsoft, but this is really beneath you.

You're a smart guy. You should be able to understand how shortcuts work. If the existence of this shortcut is that offensive to you, then I don't know what to tell you. They exist in Linux, Unix, OSX, Windows, you name it, it's got shortcuts.

It's 100% up to the user to invoke the shortcut for edge, as has been explained over and over and over again to you. I don't understand how you, or anyone else, can interpret that as some kind of loss of control.

Anyway, until you can offer up some legitimate reason why the existence of this shortcut is truly a problem, I'm done entertaining the nonsense. Good day, sir.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Terre » Sun, 14. Nov 21, 13:55

It appears the AMD Ryzen L3 cache problem is not quite fixed.

https://www.club386.com/microsofts-kb50 ... che-issue/
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Chips » Sun, 14. Nov 21, 18:52

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 13. Nov 21, 22:32
Yep, but it shows that Windows does bypass the user choice of browser and opens Edge, so the source is no BS. And pls lets keep it civil because it is an interesting discussion and only then a rivalry if we make it one.
Just a quick question - you are aware that the "bypassing user choice" is only related to, for example, the microsoft app provided links to news items within the widgets/apps whatever you want to call it? Sure, it's "bypassing" because it's specified using Edge to open it in the context of using that App to read the news or whatever...

But I don't quite consider it bypassing user choice as the user has chosen to click on said link of an MS App... It's not like you've clicked on any old hyperlink and it ignores the default setting and opens the app.

As for the "its hard to change your default browser setting now..." - unsurprisingly it's the same means as you change for any default app to open filetype. It's a consistent behaviour now for all sorts of "default" (opening image format varieties, media format varieties, web app... ).

I won't hold my breath for the anti-competitive lawsuit with 2 billion dollar fines from the EU as it's a non starter. The old fashioned "MS ships with IE only and the user has no option but to use their Browser within their dominant market segment..." etc etc was entirely different from what's been talked about so far. If people are genuinely up in arms over this but still utilising Google Chrome whereby it tracks and uses web activity to drive advertising at you, then okay.
That was possibkle because windows people usually don't check on their own if the installer actually is what it appears to be (is that even possible ?), Linux gives people the means to do so. People download it and (should instinctively) doubt the source and check it. It needs some learning or at least a how to, but so does driving a car, and nobody questions driving schools.
You can calculate and check file hashes with Windows too - obviously hardly anyone does it. However, one point - where's the hash being revealed; it may make things harder in the world where 3rd party sites host the files for a someone who's offering a DL, and they post on their own site(s) the hash so you can be sure you're downloading *their* file from the 3rd party site - but it doesn't make a download 100% *safe". I mean, one example would be (off the top of my head)

https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/nl/sec ... a-backdoor

So weird to see something be stretched out over pages. Each to their own :D

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by BaronVerde » Sun, 14. Nov 21, 21:31

@Chips, the hash is of course signed. You can look up the procedure e.g. for debian, but it is straightforward, download hash, download file, download (or get from repository) signature key, check signature of downloaded hash, compare downloaded hash with hash of downloaded file.

Not checking if a system relevant file is what it pretends to be is a nono, at least for me. I never cought malware. I never use a virus scanner. I reject 3rd party installations if they want root rights (nvidia driver was an exception, but these times are over).

As to the user choice of browser, according to the link posted by @terre it was automatable under Win 10, it is not any more under Win 11, and it disappears after updates.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who accepts MS's menu, no need to get defensive, as this thread is titled "hopeful or ?" I allow myself to execute criticism if it is documented.

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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 14. Nov 21, 22:05

But do you understand the concepts at play? Me thinks not based on what you've said. If you did, you wouldn't be trying so hard to validate that bs article and wouldn't be claiming you can't install and use a different browser, which yet again has been explained to you that every bowser asks you to set it as the default browser.

For all the railing you've done about spreading misinformation in other threads, you would think you would try better to not to do it yourself.
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Re: W11 HOPEFULL OR ?

Post by Terre » Mon, 15. Nov 21, 07:34

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sun, 14. Nov 21, 22:05
But do you understand the concepts at play? Me thinks not based on what you've said. If you did, you wouldn't be trying so hard to validate that bs article and wouldn't be claiming you can't install and use a different browser, which yet again has been explained to you that every bowser asks you to set it as the default browser.

For all the railing you've done about spreading misinformation in other threads, you would think you would try better to not to do it yourself.
The article is not saying that the user can not use any browser they want, the article is pointing out that MS is breaking it's own protocol, when it comes to apps and widgets, the original blog post should clear this up https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/microsoft-e ... ition.html.
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