[Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape » Wed, 22. May 24, 02:48

TheVillain wrote:
Tue, 21. May 24, 18:45
Thankyou for taking the time to give such a detailed and thought out response.
I had rummage in those files, i'm kind of familiar with xml from other games but x3 is more complex. The work done to make outposts function as they do is staggering to me and tinkering with that makes me raise eyebrows to the point they pack a bag and threaten to leave.
Your totally right about versioning, and duplicating function. I was just going to do it for myself, not to publish or fork MH3 or anything. I think one of the joys of X3 is the sandbox and modding posibilities. Hell it features an ingame script editor. Unfortunately I just hit things with a wrench until it does something cool.
For now I settled on just manually running the old 'explore universe' command for exploring the map and microing the occasional sattelite.
Out of interest, where do people 'settle' to do the management in x3? You cant (at least I don't remember being able to?) seta in a station, so I usually just hop to a nearby empty sector and do all the menu diving from there. But I wonder sometimes about a better solution. Could a pocket sector be made that only the player can jump to (like the old unfocused jumpdrive)? Could a player...pilot a station? Just so seta works? I dunno.
I could never program in straight up XML. That would make me bark like a dog and then pee in a corner until I die. Instead, use X-Studio. It's no visual studio grant you, but it's not a half bad editor specifically for X3 and makes development actually possible imo.

I agree, the work done on outposts, and in other areas is staggering. The more I got into it, the more I was shocked; not only at the amount of complexity, but at the differing code organization inherently resulting from at least 4 developers "doing their own thing" to it over many years. It can be a royal P.I.T.A. to do even simple things and there are a terrible amount of hidden dependencies and 'implied' things. So yes, to continue work in this code-base takes a degree of fanaticism for X3 , a lot of skill, and a whole lot of time and determination and aspirin. On the plus side, I don't know of a single simulation like X3 where you can script almost any behavior. As far as I can tell, even X4 isn't even remotely close. I guess we'll see.

Personally, I tend to settle in an NPC 'friendly' system while I do my screen work, or I find a huge friendly NPC fleet and just follow the leader. It's sort of interesting to tag along. What I don't do is sit in my own systems. In-system mechanics seem to make your TL's behave like drunken monkeys when it comes to docking or even moving around, but if you're out of system they behave. There's also the occasional ship collision if you are in-system. I also like moving around to hear different music. I wish they simply had a rotating music player built-in, instead of tying the music to a system.

Regarding a 'pocket' sector, you could just find an unknown enclave system in ZMap, and remove the gate going to it and save the map. Then use the cheat menu to jump there when in-game. There would be a few possible problems with it so it's hit or miss. First, it could have, or later spawn a pirate base. Second, it 'might' be chosen at game start as the renegade pocket, which would really put a wrench in your plans to sit there unmolested. If neither happens though, you should be able to sit there. You could even build an outpost there with a jump beacon or jump station perk and no one could ever attack you.

cheers
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by TheVillain » Thu, 23. May 24, 00:15

Hmm, your suggestion on Zmap is a good one. Might wait for the plots to unfold first.
I like some peace and quiet and somewhere with zero traffic so I don't cause collisions by just being there. Occasionally some random pirate comes after me without warning and that can end badly if I'm in my M5 'scooter' while SETA is going full crunch.
Might try your 'follow a fleet' for a laugh in something a bit stronger. I can see collisions being a thing.

I've just discovered the Search function on Satellite monitoring and holy shit that's awesome. Sometimes crashes the game though if I don't regularly purge my message log.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Negmek » Fri, 24. May 24, 18:28

After 3+ days of the playthrough i had yakis spawn next to me ad declare on me. I had to evacuate completely, the problem is when they reach my stations, the game reliably crashes. Is there any obvious fix? Should i upload save+universe, etc? Where to see logs?

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape » Sat, 25. May 24, 16:34

Negmek wrote:
Fri, 24. May 24, 18:28
After 3+ days of the playthrough i had yakis spawn next to me ad declare on me. I had to evacuate completely, the problem is when they reach my stations, the game reliably crashes. Is there any obvious fix? Should i upload save+universe, etc? Where to see logs?
If there's a specific point in the game where you know it will lock up, save your game 1-2 minutes ahead of that time. Upload all your universe/map files along with the save game somewhere and link it to me in a private message. If it's only a random lockup and I can't pinpoint it to a very repeatable thing in the game, it's nearly impossible to find, as there is no real debug capability in X3 code.. It's a process of looking at what's going on at that exact moment and making some theories and then adding "print" statements in those areas of the code to see what's going on internally. It can also involve removing NPC fleets one at a time until the problem goes away and then working backwards. It can be extremely challenging and time consuming. If you have mods you've added on top of the basic Renegades game, that can be a showstopper for me.
Alternatively, you can use your cheat menu to destroy one or two of the invading Yaki fleets and hope the issue just goes away and never comes up again.
I've not heard of any lockup's in a very long time, and they are getting far rarer. There's a high likelihood that it's related to someone shooting guns or missiles at another thing that is moving through a gate at that very moment. There's been some difficulty there since gun ranges were extended back in zero hour. Hard to say. Point is, if I can't reliably repeat it at a very specific point in time, I can't fix it given the limitations of the technology. There are no useful logs for lockup conditions that I am aware of. Any logs would likely be one folder level above where your save games are stored. I doubt you'll find any though.
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by TheVillain » Sun, 26. May 24, 17:24

So er, potentially dumb question -

How/where do I build OWP? I have the fortress perk unlocked on a sector, but its not a buildable ship/station for me, and its not in my research stations to work on....I've scanned one in the wild if that helps?


Just getting into the Phanon stuff btw and holy shit I forgot how good quests feel in X3 - for all its 'sandbox' I'm a sucker for a questline apparently.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Dex_Bot » Mon, 27. May 24, 05:20

Joelnh wrote:
Tue, 14. May 24, 13:58
does anyone know where theres a guide to hacking ?
I haven't used that feature and want to figure it out.
I haven't been able to find a complete guide on the Zero Hour Hacking system.

Hector0x has some videos where he used (a recent-ish version) of it: I did touch it back in Zero Hour 2.2, manages to make 1.5mil credits AFTER spending 3mil credits on research :-x

Though I do have some pointers:
  • DO NOT make your very first sector into a super hacking center, hacking is expensive and I recommend at least 4mil in the bank before going crazy.
  • Put your Cyberwar center near the intersect points of 2 or more major faction, enclaves will give you jack in terms of ports.
  • From the Zero Hour 2.0 Changelog "Network exploit' is now the most common attack vector. A Network virus is the best now because it can be used against many different types of ships."
  • Play it a bit risky, if you don't want to hemorrhage credits for little in return, put more into Efficiency than Security.
  • Relays are your friend, ZH 2.0 changed it so you can only select 3 per dispatch, so make sure you have at least 3 before sending a virus out.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Perahoky » Mon, 27. May 24, 16:58

Do you consider to move this to X3FL engine?
its so much improvement ...
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape » Mon, 27. May 24, 17:23

TheVillain wrote:
Sun, 26. May 24, 17:24
How/where do I build OWP? I have the fortress perk unlocked on a sector, but its not a buildable ship/station for me, and its not in my research stations to work on....I've scanned one in the wild if that helps?
The menu to build an OWP is at the bottom of the screen where you build Stations.
You have to have 1 black crystal, and some other common resources (it shows what you need). You can usually buy a black crystal from someone using a trade option pretty easy.
You start the game with 1 available OWP 'slot', and gain another 'slot' for every Fortress perk you have in your empire. Where you put your OWP's is up to you, but it builds in the same system as the outpost that you use to access the OWP build option. You can't have outpost X in system X and command it to build an OWP in system Y.
When you have all the necessary resources, you choose that menu option and it immediately takes you to the local sector map and you can then select a Position for your OWP. You don't deploy them with a ship like in the past.
Once you pick a location, the OWP appears, fully functional. At that point, command it to "attack all enemies", and it will fire on anything that comes within range. I usually just hide mine at that point so I don't have to see it in the menu. They come fully equipped with shields and weapons. I have no idea if you can change their load-out, but I suspect it would be a wasted effort given they come fully fitted.
You absolutely can build several on one gate to create a blockade. Your only limit is the number of OWP slots you have in your empire.
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape » Mon, 27. May 24, 17:28

Perahoky wrote:
Mon, 27. May 24, 16:58
Do you consider to move this to X3FL engine?
its so much improvement ...
I've heard many good things about the FL engine. I just don't know enough to make an informed decision really. I know Cycrow is still active there, which says a whole lot, but to be successful over there, I'd really need full support from someone like him to figure out the engine and a lot more.. Hector was willing to put up with my hundreds of questions, but I'm not sure anyone else would be :)
It also took me nearly 8 months of spare time to write ZMap, and most of that was done by painstakingly reverse engineering what Joubarbe's tool actually created, and not from some 'guide'. I think having a proper map editor is a primary goal of mine and there isn't one available for FL. It's possible I could make a version of ZMap for FL, but as I understand it, the map system there is very different, so I'm back to the challenge of having enough information to work with. I couldn't do that 8 month stretch again :( I don't have it in me.
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Dex_Bot » Mon, 27. May 24, 19:01

Hairless-Ape wrote:
Mon, 27. May 24, 17:28
Perahoky wrote:
Mon, 27. May 24, 16:58
Do you consider to move this to X3FL engine?
its so much improvement ...
I've heard many good things about the FL engine. I just don't know enough to make an informed decision really. I know Cycrow is still active there, which says a whole lot, but to be successful over there, I'd really need full support from someone like him to figure out the engine and a lot more.. Hector was willing to put up with my hundreds of questions, but I'm not sure anyone else would be :)
It also took me nearly 8 months of spare time to write ZMap, and most of that was done by painstakingly reverse engineering what Joubarbe's tool actually created, and not from some 'guide'. I think having a proper map editor is a primary goal of mine and there isn't one available for FL. It's possible I could make a version of ZMap for FL, but as I understand it, the map system there is very different, so I'm back to the challenge of having enough information to work with. I couldn't do that 8 month stretch again :( I don't have it in me.

Joubarbe made a Galaxy editor for X3FL a year ago, viewtopic.php?f=201&t=456167 if you want to check it out. Though I haven't been able to locate the source code of it, so if you want to port ZMap over to X3FL, seems like you have to start from scratch again. :(

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Cycrow » Mon, 27. May 24, 20:21

I try to answer questions about FL modding. Either in the FL S&M forum, or on Discord.

For the universe map, the format is the same, so TC/AP maps file should load fine. There are a number of additions that are largely optional. The most useful for generated map files is the override name parameter. This allows you to specific the text id for each sector so you don't have to adjust the text/voice file for sector names.

The jobs file has changed so TC/AP jobs files won't work in FL. The changes are detailed in the wiki

https://wiki.egosoft.com:1337/X3%20Wiki ... 20Changes/

Also a number of script commands have been added to dynamically change a number of sector properties. Including loading sector map updates to add new sectors into existing save games.

The unoffical patch also adds some new ways of loading jobs files for custom map files (these were added for Joubarbs map editor)

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape » Mon, 27. May 24, 22:13

Not sure I'd try to work with FL, as much of what I loved about Mayhem 3 is the work done by Litcube, Joubarbe and Hector0x and that's just not there in FL to build on. It may however, represent more of a clean slate to work with, so I'd have to have some new inspiration as to what exactly to do there. People want all of what's in Mayhem 3 ported over to the FL engine, but they are just so different that this is not a possibility without at least a couple years of near full time work, and the cost benefit just isn't there. They don't realize all of the hours that litcube, joubarbe, hector0x and myself put into it and I have my doubts as to how much could be ported. Mayhem is certainly not programmed using any "plug and play" or "Portable" methodology. The feature ideas from Mayhem may be viable in FL, but probably not much of the code. I know that Mayhem 3 is so incredibly complicated, that even minor additions have to be tested one small step at a time due to all of the code dependencies, so I don't see any practical ability to port the entire feature set in one move and have any hope of testing it.

Not sure what you mean by Job Files. I don't see, or use that term in Mayhem 3. There are no 'Jobs' related to maps, so I'm sure I'd have a lot to learn if I tried moving over.

I think perhaps the one thing that would inspire me to work with FL would have to be if it had the ability to do any form of real-time debugging, or a far FAR better debugging system. Right now, in Mayhem 3, you have no ability to step through a script to see how it behaves. You literally have to put print statements of some form to see whats going on, and then make some educated guesses. The tools and infrastructure just aren't there for any serious development work, and so things have to be accomplished in very very minor steps with a lot of testing in between. I can't imagine trying to port a ton of things over and making any attempt at debugging.

Thanks for the offer of help though. Perhaps something will change and I may take you up on that. It sure would be fun to get the X3AP source code.. Now that would be fun.
Hector0x is working on X4 stuff. I think he's going down the right path at present. I may join him. Not sure. I can't stand the very thought of looking at code in XML format.. never going to happen. But perhaps some creative person will create a code editor like X-Studio for it some day. I like X4, but it takes a few directions in game play that really spoil the entire experience for me. It needs a lot of the ideas from guys like Hector. Many of the ideas in Mayhem would go a long way there. Here's hoping Hector has some luck.

cheers.
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Cycrow » Mon, 27. May 24, 22:53

The jobs engine is used to create all the ships. This is a quota system that defines a number of ships to create for each job.

for debugging, i generally just write out to the debug log so i can track whats going on.
but you can also use the trace log to step through the currently running script.

if you run a script on an object like a ship, open the command console of the ship and goto script editor, then enable the trace log. Then in the debug log menu, it'll display all the script commands that are run, if the logging is set to "trace", it will stop after each command, allowing you to step through each one, if its set to "log" then it'll just log each command and continue running

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by TheVillain » Tue, 28. May 24, 00:25

Hairless-Ape wrote:
Mon, 27. May 24, 17:23
TheVillain wrote:
Sun, 26. May 24, 17:24
How/where do I build OWP? I have the fortress perk unlocked on a sector, but its not a buildable ship/station for me, and its not in my research stations to work on....I've scanned one in the wild if that helps?
The menu to build an OWP is at the bottom of the screen where you build Stations.
You have to have 1 black crystal, and some other common resources (it shows what you need). You can usually buy a black crystal from someone using a trade option pretty easy.
You start the game with 1 available OWP 'slot', and gain another 'slot' for every Fortress perk you have in your empire. Where you put your OWP's is up to you, but it builds in the same system as the outpost that you use to access the OWP build option. You can't have outpost X in system X and command it to build an OWP in system Y.
When you have all the necessary resources, you choose that menu option and it immediately takes you to the local sector map and you can then select a Position for your OWP. You don't deploy them with a ship like in the past.
Once you pick a location, the OWP appears, fully functional. At that point, command it to "attack all enemies", and it will fire on anything that comes within range. I usually just hide mine at that point so I don't have to see it in the menu. They come fully equipped with shields and weapons. I have no idea if you can change their load-out, but I suspect it would be a wasted effort given they come fully fitted.
You absolutely can build several on one gate to create a blockade. Your only limit is the number of OWP slots you have in your empire.

Aaaah so I am dumb! I totally didnt see that menu down there at the bottom - super helpful for replacing jump beacons. I thought I remembered a way of making them outside of a TL.

I'm slightly stuck on the renegade plot line - I've gotten 3 clues, and a clue that shows the format for entering them on the ship debris....but its not accepting them. So far I'm assuming I'm missing a step. Buuut its starting to feel like something is wrong?
these are my clues so far
Show
GJT3-SPYV-EHG9
Am I still doing a dumb? I've found my message log needs to be cleared anytime I do a 'sat network' search otherwise my game totally freezes up. Which is making this task harder as I have to hand write notes. While playing games. Sometimes at 1am. My hand writing is not good.

*EDIT*
Message log freezing up is not directly related to the Satellite network search function - though it only started happening after I'd used it once. I've not used it since, but my message log is reliably hitching the game to less that 1fps. I just spam Esc and after about 20 seconds it closes the log and game runs fine.
I can see others reporting similar issues...looks I should just avoid the log where possible.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Betelgeuse97 » Tue, 28. May 24, 04:18

Is the message log lag still happening with the latest patch?

Try these in your game to (temporarily) resolve the issue:
- Make sure you're running the latest patch of Renegades.
- Clear the message log.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by TheVillain » Tue, 28. May 24, 05:02

Betelgeuse97 wrote:
Tue, 28. May 24, 04:18
Is the message log lag still happening with the latest patch?

Try these in your game to (temporarily) resolve the issue:
- Make sure you're running the latest patch of Renegades.
- Clear the message log.
Will try reapplying the patch, did a clean install about a week back.
Cleared log multiple times. Will try again after patch.


Side note - did I read somewhere that destroyed outposts/stations would drop part of the wares they carried?
All that seems to be happening is they explode, and I get a fine for attacking a protectorate. Which took me ages to figure out what it meant, but they took the sector from me. So 6 hour cool down seems ruuuuude.

I used to use a 'board stations' mod but that doesn't work I cant make it work on Mayhem outposts sadly. Though I suspect it would require an ungodly number of marines.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Negmek » Tue, 28. May 24, 17:44

There is a setting in the t file to enable stations to drop wares. Its off by default.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape » Tue, 28. May 24, 18:57

and Pirate Bases will always drop about half of their wares, regardless of the T-file setting for station dropping. This was done a couple patches ago to give the player some incentive to knock them down.
This can be a significant amount of loot.

Also, one thing to remember, in regards to loot.. The rogue renegades that pop up throughout the early game drop a considerable amount of loot, so always look for it.
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by TheVillain » Tue, 28. May 24, 19:32

Negmek wrote:
Tue, 28. May 24, 17:44
There is a setting in the t file to enable stations to drop wares. Its off by default.
Goooooood dammit. Well thats simpler I guess. Really should have rummaged through there before I went looking for other solutions.
Thanks friend.

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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by TheVillain » Tue, 28. May 24, 19:37

Hairless-Ape wrote:
Tue, 28. May 24, 18:57
and Pirate Bases will always drop about half of their wares, regardless of the T-file setting for station dropping. This was done a couple patches ago to give the player some incentive to knock them down.
This can be a significant amount of loot.

Also, one thing to remember, in regards to loot.. The rogue renegades that pop up throughout the early game drop a considerable amount of loot, so always look for it.
Yeah I found that out, life saver for silicon wafers by recycling all the missiles it dropped. Also got lucky with the pirate boss spawning, had a merc M7 helping out. Massive influx of ship parts there to boost my early game.
The renegades seem to be dropping about 10 minerals/crystals - but they are squirrels to catch. I enjoy them though, got a fast TM with some M4's in the back always on standby at a jump beacon.

Can you give any directions on the clues for the ship debris? Pretty sure I'm being dense and the game has given me enough clues.
these are my clues so far
Show
its given me three parts, and an indication of the format: GJT3-SPYV-EHG9

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