[SCR] Missile Defense Mk2 (v2.28 - 17.12.11)

[Gazz]

So basically you don't know. :)
Just to inform you: people that do use them together say that they coexist fine :D

That's what I'd have expected but I cannot dismiss the potential of incompatibilities out of hand because there are no technical limits to the degree of how much one script can mess with another's objects or tasks.

That's why you hardly ever get a useful answer to this question about any script period. =P

[deca.death]

That's what I'd have expected but I cannot dismiss the potential of incompatibilities out of hand because there are no technical limits to the degree of how much one script can mess with another's objects or tasks.

Oh but of course. Something like that is implied by default ; )

That's why you hardly ever get a useful answer to this question about any script period. =P

Exactly, except when you get "NO WAY YOU SHOULDN'T DO IT!" answer. That's quite definite : )

[Gazz]

But of course you would never want to use a turret script other than mine!
I thought that was implied so the entire issue is rather puzzling!

[Nemesis_87]

Hi, just a quick question, how do i restart the turret script seeing i installed this script after i have already been playing(using the standard turret script)

[Gazz]

Just like that.
Restart the turret script...

[Nemesis_87]

you mean just order ur turrets again to missile defence?

[deca.death]

.

Now help me to determine guilty party in this case, a shameless criminal!

I'm using both Gazz's MD mk2 and Shimrod' Smart Turrets, (both recommended by XRM, couldn't decide what to use so I took both) so I'll post in both threads.

Here is the case;
My boarding pods have been shot down regularly with highest possible prioritizing and uncanny robot like precision. When you combine some of your script logic with beam weaponry and improved speed guns XRM uses, it makes life of every wannabee future pirate hellish nightmare. I know what you must think now "this noob wants his easy vanilla boarding back" but that's not the case. I am boarding vet and have hundreds of extremely difficult boardings behind. I have no problem with making boardings more difficult /as long as they are possible. But some of your turret logic makes boarding effectively impossible in most of scenarios. I don't mind having higher priority in shooting down pods, but make those guys miss once in a while for God's sake! I prepare my target and saturate the sky with dozens of drones and hundreds of swarm warheads and damn turrets are picked every time in every scenario, whatever I do or try. Whatever the distance to target, position of M7M, me, asteroids in between, I tried everything, I am unnaturally persistent in games, (unlike in real life ), and too many of ships remain virtually unboardable. All beam weapon capital warships, every multi turreted sentinel ships, every PRG mounted M7 ... list goes on and on.


They should be nerfed. One way or the other. Difficult I don't mind, I want possible. Is it realistic that small and fast thing such as boarding pod to be noted every Goddamn time in a highly hostile and warzone-hazy environment?

[Litcube]

So basically you don't know.
Just to inform you: people that do use them together say that they coexist fine

That's what I'd have expected but I cannot dismiss the potential of incompatibilities out of hand because there are no technical limits to the degree of how much one script can mess with another's objects or tasks.

That's why you hardly ever get a useful answer to this question about any script period. =P

Why is it that us script authors are supposed to be the authority on what's compatible with some other script? If we didn't write it, how the #%&$ are we supposed to know? As if we magically have some insight into the inner workings of a script we've never even installed.

Dear Community,

Install it yourself, test, and post the results.

[deca.death]

Dear Community,

Install it yourself, test, and post the results.

That's understandable, on the other hand it's only natural to assume that author has encountered cases of good or bad examples, besides, posting question in mod thread may reach people already having same dilemmas or actually seen some results. For example for large mods such as XRM is more or less well known what other mods can or cannot coexist, and even methods of their installation.

[Litcube]

Dear Community,

Install it yourself, test, and post the results.

That's understandable, on the other hand it's only natural to assume that author has encountered cases of good or bad examples, besides, posting question in mod thread may reach people already having same dilemmas or actually seen some results. For example for large mods such as XRM is more or less well known what other mods can or cannot coexist, and even methods of their installation.

True. Good points.

[Gazz]

They should be nerfed. One way or the other. Difficult I don't mind, I want possible. Is it realistic that small and fast thing such as boarding pod to be noted every Goddamn time in a highly hostile and warzone-hazy environment?

The simple truth is that missiles are easy tarrgets.
There is no cheat or huge artificial hit box involved. A laser has to physically hit the model of the missile. I have tested that.
But missiles come up in a straight line... ideally suited for a bullseye target lead calculation.

MD Mk2 doesn't even "concentrate" on boarding pods. Every incoming missile gets equal attention.
The only concession is that all high-threat missiles (like Hammerheads or boarding pods) are serviced first before the turrets give equal firing time to all the other missiles, too.
There really is no alternative. Even if a thousand Mosquitos were incoming, that would be survivable for many ships.

So if the first shot misses, with a crapload of other missiles incoming, it would take a long time until the turret "got around" to the boarding pod again.
It's not just hammering away at the boarding pods exclusively.
Saturation works.
I'm not letting the script cheat. That would be boring.
It's just not prone to self reflection while there's work to do. =)



If you wish to nerf the script, be my guest.
Reducing the priority of boarding pods won't help a lot, though. They'd still get equal time on the firing range.
You'd have to do something drastic like a RND(1-20) and only fire on a BP if 1 is rolled.
Or ignore them completely. Whatever your fancy.

[deca.death]

.

Alright alright, now we're getting somewhere. I've learned much in our little conversation gentlemen, thank you. I can't wait to put my findings in practice. I'll inform you if my conclusions were of any interest, and remember, goal is to keep boarding challenging, definitely more difficult then in vanilla /but ultimately possible.


One way would be to increase health of boarding pod, it's a little spaceship, after all, not some common mosquito. When it would endure two or three hits it would improve boarding chances significantly. We'll see.

[Gazz]

MD Mk2 is not compatible with X3: Albion Prelude.

That is probably because an improved version or it is already included in vanilla AP.

[deca.death]

a shameless request:
could you please, PLEASE, remove your "feature" of turrets making boarding pods as top priority targets? It does nothing for so called "balance"; AI doesn't board. Only thing it really does is that it makes a life of every wannabee pirate very, very miserable /as we concluded in xrm thread. Now I have a maybe completely wrong conception of your script being relatively friendly with old rigs /performance demands. We all love and use -smart- and -mars- and those things are awesome to a point of being unfair to AI, but toll they take on hardware is fairly substantial. You can feel it even on mid range PC.

So, again, I'm not asking on special treatment. So don't make thing easier. Just make boarding pods treated as every other missile. Because your scrip effectively eliminates whole boarding mechanics from game almost completely. And that is bad, very bad thing, i assure you.

[DrBullwinkle]

remove your "feature" of turrets making boarding pods as top priority targets?

The combination of XRM's weapons and MD2's effectiveness does make boarding pods highly vulnerable.

Unfortunately, Gazz explained that lowering the priority would not help much. Even better; he also gave you the solution to the problem: saturate the defenses.

In other words, check the "Fragmentation" box in X3 Editor for the Boarding Pod. (Or talk Paul Wheeler into doing it.)

I just landed 26 "SEALs" (4x100 marines) on a MARS-equipped J (launched from a Sirokos at close range). Only one pod got shot down.

That seems like a more reasonable ratio of success. There is still some risk/cost in boarding, but it is no longer "highly improbable".

[deca.death]

Unfortunately, Gazz explained that lowering the priority would not help much. Even better; he also gave you the solution to the problem: saturate the defenses.

Oh but he was wrong :) How do I know? Because we've noted that -smart- (which is effective turret script in all aspects except one major difference - it doesn't prioritize pods) let your pods through occasionally, MDmk2 doesn't. Let me put it this way: when MD shoots down your pods on one try there is 99.9% percent that on reload it will do it again. Smart shoots pods too, quite happily sometimes, but not so regularly. It can shoot all your pods once and none on reload. Major. Difference.
That's what I'm talking about :)

In other words, check the "Fragmentation" box in X3 Editor for the Boarding Pod. (Or talk Paul Wheeler into doing it.)

You mean make them swarm? Nah too easy. I just turn -smart- on all enemies, thing is, on major AI battles with plenty of ships (not so unusual in xrm) it affects performance.

[Jumee]

In AP boarding pods have 10k hull, right? so the overall survivability should be better? if not just raise their hull value, one could probably find a good balance between always survive and never get through that way

EDIT: oh wait you are playing TC, sorry :/

[Gazz]

You mean make them swarm? Nah too easy.

Does that even work?
I mean that after launch, the original pod, containing your marines, is removed from the game while 8 new swarm missiles are spawned.
Where do the marines go?

[DrBullwinkle]

[The key to landing boarding pods on a MARS-equipped enemy is to] saturate the defenses.

In other words, check the "Fragmentation" box in X3 Editor for the Boarding Pod.

I just landed 26 "SEALs" (4x100 marines) on a MARS-equipped Xenon J (launched from a Sirokos at close range). Only one pod got shot down.

That seems like a more reasonable ratio of success. There is still some risk/cost in boarding, but it is no longer "highly improbable".

Does [Fragmentation] even work?

It worked perfectly in my test. Three marines died before they reached the hull; suggesting that one pod was hit by MARS turrets.

Marines launched from Sirokos at < 1km range.
Enemies have MARS; I do not:

=========================================================
EDIT:
=========================================================
Test 1: Target = Xenon J
26 marines cutting the hull
3 marines died before reaching the hull

Test 2: Target = K
18 marines cutting hull
5 died

Test 3: Same K
23 marines cutting hull
4 marines died

Control Test 4: Same K; No Fragmentation, but with missiles and fighters harassing the target.
14 marines cutting hull
10 marines died

Summary: Fragmentation makes pod boarding possible against MARS. Not "easy" but "possible".

There are still losses, but the target is a MARS-equipped K, which *should* be challenging. Also, it is not guaranteed that you can land a full compliment of marines in any given attempt, even under the best of circumstances. However, it is *possible* to land a full compliment, which is the point of the experiment.


@Jumee: In a separate test, I tried setting boading pod hulls to 50,000 in Globals (TC). It did not appear to have any effect. (Hulls were at the TC default of 300 during the above tests).

[Jumee]

@Jumee: In a separate test, I tried setting boading pod hulls to 50,000 in Globals (TC). It did not appear to have any effect. (Hulls were at the TC default of 300 during the above tests).

Oh, I thought that pods in TC were like missiles in a sense that they didnt have hull values at all