[X3LU] Mayhem 3.21b

[Betelgeuse97]

What are the differences between Wings and having a Fleet? In which situations should I use one or the other?

Right now I'm at the stage where I'm taking out pirate and xenon stations and am having to fight a lot. I'm using a Fleet to attack the stations which seems better than a wing. For sector defense though, I'm not sure which is better. And since this is only 3rd game of X3, first with Mayhem, I'm also not sure of some of the settings, such as wingman, wingman for player, and so forth, when should I be using those? I watched the video by Darth Fiscus and know to set the Fleet commander settings so that follower ships don't chase. Are there other settings that I need to set for wings and fleets that are crucial? And I assume Defend Sector and Patrol Sector have the exact same effect? Thanks all.

Wingman and wings were around since X2 and X3TC respectively. Both wings and fleets tried to help the player manage a large group of ships.

With a wing, you don't have a leader. You control all ships at once, and it's more complicated to control an individual ship. In a fleet, you have a leader and that leader is reassigned when it dies. You control the leader and its followers support that leader.

Fleet supersedes wings since fleets can be ordered to have all ships prioritize attacks or flee, and all of this is done in a single menu. For this reason, there's no reason to use wings.

EDIT: Corrections

[Hairless-Ape]

Is a Tug's Range limited to the jump range you set on it's outpost where it's home-based?

Not sure I understand the Auto-assign Traders/miners etc. Does the A.I. just randomly pick and unassigned ship of the correct type (and homebased at that outpost) and make it do that duty?

Can you sell Meat/Vegetables/Fish/Fruit ? We start with some, but if you don't need food, can you get rid of them?

My outpost Looter seems to be picking up a bunch of junk. Other than Ship components, I'm wondering where to sell it? Would this manually be sold at a trading station?


Regarding Logistics, I seem to be following a pattern for jobs where I have an export and an import job for each factory type, so the outpost pulls everything in, and dolls it all out. Seems like less control and Mayhem 2. It seems I can assign a hauler to a station directly and give it the "workers-Agent" command, but honestly I have no clue what that hauler would end up doing since there seems to be little control. Would it sell to NPC's even if I needed those resources myself? Would it buy from NPC's, even though I could supply those materials myself?


Thanks.

[Hector0x]

Is a Tug's Range limited to the jump range you set on it's outpost where it's home-based?

They should. They are a worker (it's a term for all automated civilian ships in Mayhem). All workers are supposed to respect this range limit. But i haven't used Tugs yet so you could be on a bug.

Not sure I understand the Auto-assign Traders/miners etc. Does the A.I. just randomly pick and unassigned ship of the correct type (and homebased at that outpost) and make it do that duty?

Yes, if the AI finds a ship which is able to do the job (encyclopedia has a list with all commands and their requirements) then it assign the ship to become Agent, Worker, or whatever you have set up for autoassign. So if you need a replacement trader you only have to order one for production with the right homebase. It will get this job automatically once it has been built.

Can you sell Meat/Vegetables/Fish/Fruit ? We start with some, but if you don't need food, can you get rid of them?

You can sell to trading stations and other NPC outposts which need the food. Trading stations will eventually run out of free cargo space for the food they are buying and NPC outposts are only willing to buy up to 8.333 units of the food they actually consume over time.
You will eventually have huge food stockpiles no matter what you do. The idea is to make you consider using the food for your outposts. But you will never be able to sell or get rid all food because any outpost produces double the amount it consumes. There is no way to prevent that all food storages are maxed out after a long period of playtime. Then they will only disappear when an outpost gets destroyed and a new one gets built.

My outpost Looter seems to be picking up a bunch of junk. Other than Ship components, I'm wondering where to sell it? Would this manually be sold at a trading station?

If it's a resource (Chemicals, Protein Paste) it can be sold to factories. If it's missles, lasers, or shields it can only be sold to certain trading stations (definitely Markus corp and Thuruk's). Selling a lot of random crap always seems to require a lot of micromanagement. You can recycle these goods in your outpost. You only get half the value but it's easy and saves you time.

Regarding Logistics, I seem to be following a pattern for jobs where I have an export and an import job for each factory type, so the outpost pulls everything in, and dolls it all out.

That is the default way. NPC Supply ships are doing the same thing for NPC outposts. I can only recommend to stick to this method. It makes it easier to manage your global storages and distribute stuff to where you need it. I tried different setups to prevent shipping intermediate products to the outpost first. Trust me, if you do this you will find yourself in micromanagement hell. It works up to half a dozen sectors. Then you stop playing for a week and have no idea what is going on after you come back

It seems I can assign a hauler to a station directly and give it the "workers-Agent" command, but honestly I have no clue what that hauler would end up doing since there seems to be little control.

The Agent would effectively have two jobs similar to an outpost Agent.
1) Import what the factory needs as soon as resource stock drops below import threshold (the default is 10% of maximum cargo capacity, can be adjusted in station parameters)
2) Export what the factory produces as soon as product stock reaches export threshold (default 40%)

The only difference to an outpost Agent is that the factory Agent can import and export to and from any of your stations (outposts and factories). This allows you to for example skip shipping microchips to an outpost because there is absolutely no need to have them in an outpost. Instead the Agent would ship them directly to your computer plant.
Factory Agents are usually a waste since an outpost Agent is often able to keep at least 5 factories running. A factory Agent will only keep his homebase factory running. In my opinion this is only ever worth it on far away mining stations which drain C-Rations and produce bulky Ore/Silicon very quickly. So they can keep an entire Agent busy all the time. But even then i don't use them. Too much hassle with X3's ugly interfaces. Outpost Agents and Job Presets can be used as one click solutions.

Would it sell to NPC's even if I needed those resources myself? Would it buy from NPC's, even though I could supply those materials myself?

No, an Agent can never buy or sell anything. The AI uses these ships too. For them they are called "Supply ..."

When an Agent loads or unloads something money will NEVER be transferred. He can only load or unload at stations you own.
When a Trader loads or unloads something money MUST be transferred. He can load or unload at your stations or at NPC stations.

[Betelgeuse97]

Can you sell Meat/Vegetables/Fish/Fruit ? We start with some, but if you don't need food, can you get rid of them?

You can sell to trading stations and other NPC outposts which need the food. Trading stations will eventually run out of free cargo space for the food they are buying and NPC outposts are only willing to buy up to 8.333 units of the food they actually consume over time.
You will eventually have huge food stockpiles no matter what you do. The idea is to make you consider using the food for your outposts. But you will never be able to sell or get rid all food because any outpost produces double the amount it consumes. There is no way to prevent that all food storages are maxed out after a long period of playtime. Then they will only disappear when an outpost gets destroyed and a new one gets built.

In a test I ran, I actually noticed that people consume the same amount that is produced. For example, outpost A has 50 people producing 100 meat per cycle. Outpost B has 50 people consuming meat per cycle. Outpost B will consume 100 meat per cycle, not 50.

[Hector0x]

In a test I ran, I actually noticed that people consume the same amount that is produced. For example, outpost A has 50 people producing 100 meat per cycle. Outpost B has 50 people consuming meat per cycle. Outpost B will consume 100 meat per cycle, not 50.

This shouldn't be. Could be a bug, but how long did you test it?

Food got these two lines in 9972-L044.xml:

<t id="144">2</t> <!-- Outpost product production factor per consumption cycle (* people). (default: 2) -->
<t id="9">1</t> <!-- Outpost resource consumption factor per consumption cycle (* people). (default: 1) -->

[sigurhel]

Hi!

I was under the impression from the help files that Boarding was more of an "infiltration" mechanic in M3. But shields still need to be 10% or lower, which is not giving one many targets in the mid-game.
So what's your boarding strategy?

Also stats on marines? Any thoughts?

[4square425]

1. There's an upgrade you can equip from colored crystals to reduce shields without firing weapons.

2. I set up an Outpost with both the marine training and sickbay perks as my base for boarding.

3. After I train the marines there, I stick them in highly survivable ships like M6s or even M7s as pilots and find some enemies, like pirates or a race I'm at war with. Have those ships destroy the enemies to get extra skill points for the marines.

4. I tend to train each one to be a specialist in a skill, then once they get to 100, pick a second skill.

5. When boarding itself, your biggest obstacle is time. When hacking through the decks, look for security offices that gives you a chance to reset transmissions. There's a post earlier in this thread that has the specifics (page 530). However, that allows you to reset the overall boarding timer. There's a similar one for resetting the sentinel patrols.

[Betelgeuse97]

In a test I ran, I actually noticed that people consume the same amount that is produced. For example, outpost A has 50 people producing 100 meat per cycle. Outpost B has 50 people consuming meat per cycle. Outpost B will consume 100 meat per cycle, not 50.

This shouldn't be. Could be a bug, but how long did you test it?

Food got these two lines in 9972-L044.xml:

<t id="144">2</t> <!-- Outpost product production factor per consumption cycle (* people). (default: 2) -->
<t id="9">1</t> <!-- Outpost resource consumption factor per consumption cycle (* people). (default: 1) -->

My bad. I ran another test and looks like they don't eat the same amount of food.

EDIT: Question about "xenon targeting signature." What is the range needed for one of your ships to detect this, and what exactly do xenon do when they arrive to that sector?

[Joubarbe]

"Xenon targeting signature" is just a lore way of telling you that Xenons are coming. It's not related to anything, it's just a warning you'll always receive, no matter where you are. There are two Xenon fleets: 1/ Small invasion fleets attack other ships and capture beacons (also stations if the player is too strong). 2/ Big invasion fleets attack stations (only on later stages of the plot).

Boarding tip: use EMP.

[sigurhel]

1. There's an upgrade you can equip from colored crystals to reduce shields without firing weapons.
...

Thanks for the tips, worked well!
What upgrade is this (1), I have the software signal thing, but that only reduces signal interception according to the lore.

[sigurhel]

...
Boarding tip: use EMP.

Ahh, ofc. Need to find a a good sector for that. Been a bit stingy on making outposts, still in early mid game.
Thanks!

[Hector0x]

Ahh, ofc. Need to find a a good sector for that.

There is a mobile EMP device you can install on your ships.

[sigurhel]

Ahh, ofc. Need to find a a good sector for that.

There is a mobile EMP device you can install on your ships.

Ahh it's ST class, need it on an TL. That's why I missed that. Thanks.

[azxcvbnm321]

People keep talking about the special equipment, like the one that reduces maintenance costs, but how do I get those? I also have colored crystals at my base, but have no way of using them, does all of that come later in the story? I'm currently at the point where I have to kill all Xenon stations.

[Sirrobert]

Well I'm finally going back to trying out Mayhem, and I'm already feeling lost on the first few hours.
One particularly frustrating tidbit is that manual trade seems MUCH harder now, because the AI actually has sufficient ships to do the work. When I finally do find a factory with a full inventory, some NPC trader swooped in and bought everything before my traders even got there.
I'm torn between doing combat missions to make some cash, or hopping into the fastest ships I have and explore the galaxy for spots to settle.

So I'm completely lost. What is a good path for the first hours?

[Hairless-Ape]

Well I'm finally going back to trying out Mayhem, and I'm already feeling lost on the first few hours.
One particularly frustrating tidbit is that manual trade seems MUCH harder now, because the AI actually has sufficient ships to do the work. When I finally do find a factory with a full inventory, some NPC trader swooped in and bought everything before my traders even got there.
I'm torn between doing combat missions to make some cash, or hopping into the fastest ships I have and explore the galaxy for spots to settle.

So I'm completely lost. What is a good path for the first hours?

I'm only marginally past that point, but have absolutely experienced the headaches of the first few hours. Still reeling and wish there were just some quick reference to help with some of the basics. It forces you to either have to read a thousand posts, or give up, or flail around failing over and over until you stumble on the right answer.... all of which ruins the experience. I agree the struggle has it's rewards for this game, but this is more of a sadistic trick than a struggle.

Anyway, The Trade Run command is horrible. Don't use it. Also the best trade search feature can often send you 4 or 5 jumps away and by the time you get there, the deal is gone every time. I found best thing to do is just manually look at each station's inventory in a system where your trader is at, and if one is full, go there and buy it, because you know it's the best price. (be sure it's one of the basic resources you can actually sell to a factory, such as Telad or Chemicals etc.) If none are near full, move your trader over to another system. Point is, try to minimize your jumps because there are simply way too many NPC traders out there, and the only way to really reduce your jumps is to capitalize on what's selling low in your immediate area. Yes, selling can be difficult too, so again, I recommend looking at the type of station you would sell that resource at, and manually looking at the nearby systems. You're not looking necessarily for the best selling price, but just a decent one and more importantly one that's close.

Once you get an outpost, you can assign traders automatically, but so far my traders all slowly lose money. I have a sweet corner, surrounded by NPC's and lots of business to be had, but somehow my traders always seem to sell for less than they buy. Some people say they have great luck with outpost traders, but I consistently see them being horrible. I'm still not sure how to make "good" money. Missions are a grind and dull. You can't send your claimed ships to a shipyard to sell anymore, so that's been nerfed also. You can sell excess materials from your factories but automating that seems complex and I've not figured out how yet. Personally, I loved Mayhem 2 far better with the exception of a few nice features in 3. Maybe it will change after I bludgeon myself a few hundred more times.

[Betelgeuse97]

Well I'm finally going back to trying out Mayhem, and I'm already feeling lost on the first few hours.
One particularly frustrating tidbit is that manual trade seems MUCH harder now, because the AI actually has sufficient ships to do the work. When I finally do find a factory with a full inventory, some NPC trader swooped in and bought everything before my traders even got there.
I'm torn between doing combat missions to make some cash, or hopping into the fastest ships I have and explore the galaxy for spots to settle.

So I'm completely lost. What is a good path for the first hours?

Once you get an outpost, you can assign traders automatically, but so far my traders all slowly lose money. I have a sweet corner, surrounded by NPC's and lots of business to be had, but somehow my traders always seem to sell for less than they buy. Some people say they have great luck with outpost traders, but I consistently see them being horrible. I'm still not sure how to make "good" money. Missions are a grind and dull. You can't send your claimed ships to a shipyard to sell anymore, so that's been nerfed also. You can sell excess materials from your factories but automating that seems complex and I've not figured out how yet. Personally, I loved Mayhem 2 far better with the exception of a few nice features in 3. Maybe it will change after I bludgeon myself a few hundred more times.

When you're self-sufficient, money will be used only for maintenance. Did you try the tax perk?

You can also scrap claimed ships and their equipment at any outpost to get materials. Sell the materials if you need money. Only traders can sell stuff from factories using export values set at the factory. According to the encyclopedia, when a trader sells something, it locks that item at the destination. For example, a factory needs 3000 waste and your trader wants to sell 3000 waste to that factory. The trader will lock that resource so that other traders will not sell the same item to the same factory.

Traders are best put on the outpost so that they're not limited to selling only from one factory. Use agents to gather items from your factories beforehand. You can either set the budget to 0 (so that trader buys or sells only what you want imported to or exported from the outpost) or keep the budget as is so that it does some other trades unrelated to your outpost.

[azxcvbnm321]

My experience with Mayhem 3.0 is that the beginning is very hard. Trading is nearly useless, there just aren't enough decent opportunities at start, there will be, but not at start. You cannot afford to waste money because you have no source of income but there are ongoing maintenance costs so slowly your treasury will be drained. You have plenty of time, but I bought a good number of advanced sats to place around and got to the point where I didn't even have enough to pay the maintenance. At that point I started selling what I could, ship equipment, whatever. I was able to finish ascension and build an outpost surrounded by 2 xenon sectors and 2 pirate bases within 2 sectors (didn't know about 1 of the pirate bases). Didn't have much of a choice, I needed to get that outpost down and start producing income. And I did. I used the no food perk, I didn't have any money to purchase food anyway, but the food I produced I sold to neighboring outposts. I then built a protein paste factory and food prep factory because I noticed AI ore and silicon mines were always low on C-rations. I sold everything from those factories and the game got a lot easier as I consolidated all my ships and had enough money to start buying resources which I used to produce factories to make more resources that I could actually use myself.

So I think the best way to start is to explore and do your ascension, you don't have to rush, just be wary of picking up too many ships and the maintenance costs. Then you build your first factories to make products that will sell. I think energy cells are also in high demand along with C-rations. Once you get money, you'll have to deal with pirates taking out your traders (always have them escorted). Build your first M3's, don't expand too fast into other sectors. If pirates start getting lots of M6's without you being able to produce M6's yourself, that could be the end. It almost happened to me, but luckily I was able to produce my own M6's just as Xenon raids with 2 M6's and a bunch of M3's started attacking my outposts.

In all, I think 3.0 is much more fun in the beginning than LU or vanilla where it's not much of a challenge. With 3.0, you feel under pressure and have to fight for survival as you build up your empire.

[Sirrobert]

According to the encyclopedia, when a trader sells something, it locks that item at the destination. For example, a factory needs 3000 waste and your trader wants to sell 3000 waste to that factory. The trader will lock that resource so that other traders will not sell the same item to the same factory.

Traders are best put on the outpost so that they're not limited to selling only from one factory. Use agents to gather items from your factories beforehand. You can either set the budget to 0 (so that trader buys or sells only what you want imported to or exported from the outpost) or keep the budget as is so that it does some other trades unrelated to your outpost.

I'm pretty sure that means YOUR other traders. NPC traders still compete as normal.

[Hector0x]

For Mayhem 3 you have to rethink how money works and what your goals are. You are not in the buildup phase yet. You are in the exploration phase.
Owning too many expensive ships will ruin you. Trying to setup a satellite network will ruin you. Both require money you just don't have and can't earn right now.

The only thing you can do (and the only thing you need) is to just earn enough money to get by. You can do this with a few fighters and traders. Your maintenance will be what? 500Cr every 10 minutes? I bet some of you already own multiple M6 again. Come on man! What do you expect? Complete your Ascension quest and search for a sector to setup your first base! If you try to build a huge fleet from bailed ships or earn a fortune with trading way too early you will be frustrated. Stick to a few small ships and money issues are gone. Mayhem 3 is not like LU. Building fleets is easier. You don't need to spend the entire game to scrape for additional ships so you can reduce grind time. You can build a decent number of ships quickly once you actually need them.

With a sector you will get:
- a free Resource for your factories
- free Food you can sell
- free Energy (Perk)
- free Taxes (Perk).
- the ability to build factories which generate value over time if you sell some products
- the ability to setup automated looting, ship claiming, mining, trading

Once you start to sell all this free stuff and get some factories to refine it into something valuable you will earn your millions. Money is a bitch in Mayhem 3. You need to pay your maintenance, so cashflow is critical. But having millions in the bank is fairly useless. Because global resource output is limited and factions hoard the good stuff. You simply won't find much to buy with all your money. Crafting resources should be your desire. If you had the choice between getting a million credits and getting a million worth of Quantum Tubes you always choose the Tubes. Because the Tubes can be transformed into money or ships. Money is just money. That's the mindset you need for Mayhem 3.

To cover your maintenance:
The best money strategy is to occasionally check the worth of your outpost freight levels with the logistical overview (player console) and adjust your export thresholds to sell any excess you don't need. For example if you have Rastar Oil and Teladianium worth 200k, but also Ore worth 600k. You should setup your outpost to sell all three components once each stockpile reaches a worth in credits above 200k. This keeps your resource levels balanced for station production and your traders will slowly turn additional parts into cash. In this example especially the Ore.

If you want to force additional profits, build factories which compliment the NPC economy. This can vary from game to game. In my current game i'm building additional Computer Plants because the NPC's have somehow built a lot of microchip factories nearby which are always filled to the brim and sell cheap. An Outpost uses its traders to feed the Computer Parts to the Paranids, who are my allies and computers are the bottleneck in their shipbuilding. This arragement yields me millions and helps them to rebuild their fleets quicker.

Traders are best put on the outpost so that they're not limited to selling only from one factory.

You can't put traders on a factory. Each outpost can support 5 traders. This is all you will ever get. Want more traders? Need more sectors.

I'm pretty sure that means YOUR other traders. NPC traders still compete as normal.

No, your traders too. Also Agents. All automated ships (Workers) put a trade lock on these factories. NPC's or player owned. You can beat NPC traders manually by buying while a factory is below 40% product level and sell to a factory which has no resources. The profit will be lower but it will be a profit. And no trader can beat you on buying if you buy below 40%.

People keep talking about the special equipment, like the one that reduces maintenance costs, but how do I get those? I also have colored crystals at my base, but have no way of using them, does all of that come later in the story? I'm currently at the point where I have to kill all Xenon stations.

Check your Hangar in the outpost manager. There should be an upgrade button and the equipment should already be available (only boarding stuff is locked until after the xenon are gone)
In my opinion the maintenance bay is only good for capships. For smaller ships recycling and rebuilding is better.