[X3LU] Mayhem 3.21b

[Joubarbe]

After declaring a permanent war with teladi, I seem to be able to top up my reputation by killing so much of their stuff that the reputation bottoms out and overflows back up to max, or something or the sort.
That may not be exactly what's happening but regardless; for some reason I am gaining a large amount of reputation with Teladi while shooting them. I went from rank -5 to rank 5 in the span of about 10 seconds.

That's weird... Probably vanilla issue, but I don't remember anyone report that earlier. In any case, I'm going to set reputation at -4 instead of -5 when declaring a permanent war.

[Joubarbe]

And your previous save, the one where you face an OCV, is still crashing. Seeing how many bugs you have reported in the last few days, I'd say something may be wrong with your install.

(Fleets are working fine in my games)

Code: Select all

if [THIS]-> is of class [Jump Beacon]
  $sectorOwner = $sector-> get owner race
  [THIS]-> set owner race to $sectorOwner
    if $sectorOwner == [Player]
      $task = get task ID
      START [NULL]-> call script 'Lib.Gen.RunScriptWhenFinished' : ScriptName='Joubarbe.Lib.Destroy' TaskWatch=$task TaskRun=$task ObjectWatch=[THIS] ObjectRun=[THIS] arg1=[THIS] arg2=[TRUE] arg3=null arg4=null arg5=null
    return null
  end
end

(Run everytime a jump beacon spawn)

[Black--Snow]

I'll give it a fresh of X3, LU, and Mayhem and see if these issues persist.

This install has been hanging around for absolutely ****** ages so it's not improbable that it's ****.
They censor swearing... Except not 'shit'.

Edit: The save crashes on a fresh install

Doesn't seem to crash when I remember to install ADS though.


---

The issues still persist. 'Fleet Attack All' still results in the fleet commander sitting still, and the rest of the command seems to function identically to Broadcast to fleet > Attack All, which is just redundant. Can you confirm that you're *not* getting this behaviour?

I think the stations are still respawning in PTNI, but I'll have to double check that one.

[Hector0x]

@Black--Snow: I have never seen the fleet commander do anything. "Call to Arms" can be fairly useful to ocasionally gather groups of ships when you are busy on different fronts. "Invade Sector" splits the fleet and assembles them in front of different gates. They don't seem to do anything after that, but you can broadcast "attack all" to all fleet ships when they are ready. Sometimes this scattered positioning has been useful to me to quickly wipe a sector when i had superior forces. Against major factions it is better to keep the fleet together (to face reinforcements). I'm using "Attack all" for a strong capship and "Escort: Attack nearest" to get ships to follow it.

Your defence grid is strange. It's working fine in my game, using corvettes and frigates. The script usually sends M7 against M6 and uses M6 to catch fighters.

[Joubarbe]

@Joubarbe: Thanks.
Let me know if any major mistakes creep in. I can still change stuff.

Don't forget to drop a word about Backlog. I spent ages on this ****** thing, and the whole one-click all-in-one order, I think, is pretty cool.

I realize watching your videos that this mod has a long list of features (some of them quite useless though...)

[aiPIMP]

A while back i remember MLCC could use TM class ships.
Why did you reverted MLCC to vanilla?

[Hector0x]

Don't forget to drop a word about Backlog. I spent ages on this ****** thing, and the whole one-click all-in-one order, I think, is pretty cool.

Since you brought that up. It would be a really nice QoL improvement if an order for a template would only be started after all equipment was ready at the shipyard (lasers, shields). Don't know how hard it would be to implement this, or the performance impact.

[Joubarbe]

A while back i remember MLCC could use TM class ships.
Why did you reverted MLCC to vanilla?

viewtopic.php?t=398706

[aiPIMP]

viewtopic.php?t=398706

ohhhhh, much obliged!

[Black--Snow]

@Joubarbe: Thanks.
Let me know if any major mistakes creep in. I can still change stuff.

Don't forget to drop a word about Backlog. I spent ages on this ****** thing, and the whole one-click all-in-one order, I think, is pretty cool.

I realize watching your videos that this mod has a long list of features (some of them quite useless though...)

Your backlog feature is still my favourite QoL feature of Mayhem.

My issues with respawning stations might honestly be fixed when updating to 2.9.0 anyway since it needs an E/I.

@Black--Snow: I have never seen the fleet commander do anything. "Call to Arms" can be fairly useful to ocasionally gather groups of ships when you are busy on different fronts. "Invade Sector" splits the fleet and assembles them in front of different gates. They don't seem to do anything after that, but you can broadcast "attack all" to all fleet ships when they are ready. Sometimes this scattered positioning has been useful to me to quickly wipe a sector when i had superior forces. Against major factions it is better to keep the fleet together (to face reinforcements). I'm using "Attack all" for a strong capship and "Escort: Attack nearest" to get ships to follow it.

Your defence grid is strange. It's working fine in my game, using corvettes and frigates. The script usually sends M7 against M6 and uses M6 to catch fighters.

Good to know that the fleet commands are just trash and it's not just my install. :V

Defence grid is working now. Seems like it was being a bit finnicky regarding fleets.

[Joubarbe]

Don't forget to drop a word about Backlog. I spent ages on this ****** thing, and the whole one-click all-in-one order, I think, is pretty cool.

Since you brought that up. It would be a really nice QoL improvement if an order for a template would only be started after all equipment was ready at the shipyard (lasers, shields). Don't know how hard it would be to implement this, or the performance impact.

2.9.0:

[Joubarbe]

About fleets:

I've went through the scripts and it's a real mess. I've already rewritten the call to arms and resupply scripts. The whole thing is vanilla, not 100% compatible with LU, and some scripts are missing, and some scripts are clearly redundant. At some point, I wanted to have another system ("Squadrons") but proper fleets that actually work should be enough. I'll add a dedicated screen to give quick orders and also for easy management.

At the end, you'll have 6 commands: Call To Arms, Attack (single target), Invade sector (like the AI does), Guard (sector), Protect (station or ship) and Patrol (multi sector). Maybe Retreat, and maybe Repair. I also want an easy way to resupply a fleet with an external ship (equipped with Supply Command Software and Transporter Device).

And about the leader doing nothing: it's actually the intended behavior (!). What's really funny is that they requisition some ships to defend the leader (even if the target is at the opposite side of the sector), and because of that strategy, the remaining attacking force may in some cases be outnumbered. I've seen 4 fighters attacking a M6 and my M2 was staying to protect my leader, who was an M3. Genius, really

Needless to say, I've already fixed that, the leader is not a pussy anymore.

[Black--Snow]

About fleets:

I've went through the scripts and it's a real mess. I've already rewritten the call to arms and resupply scripts. The whole thing is vanilla, not 100% compatible with LU, and some scripts are missing, and some scripts are clearly redundant. At some point, I wanted to have another system ("Squadrons") but proper fleets that actually work should be enough. I'll add a dedicated screen to give quick orders and also for easy management.

At the end, you'll have 6 commands: Call To Arms, Attack (single target), Invade sector (like the AI does), Guard (sector), Protect (station or ship) and Patrol (multi sector). Maybe Retreat, and maybe Repair. I also want an easy way to resupply a fleet with an external ship (equipped with Supply Command Software and Transporter Device).

You continuously amaze me with how much you're willing to change to make the game better.

If it's possible, an 'attack all' fleet command that tells the fleet to basically 'escort: attack same' the leader would be great. Currently that command is only available via individual ship consoles, you can't even broadcast 'attack same'.
A command that behaves like 'escort: protect' and 'attack nearest' would be super useful too. Currently escort protect results in enemies being able to pick off the fleet unless they're attacking the escorted ship, and attack nearest has seemingly no (Or far too large) range limit, meaning the ships will abandon the attack nearest target and fly off to find an enemy.

And about the leader doing nothing: it's actually the intended behavior (!). What's really funny is that they requisition some ships to defend the leader (even if the target is at the opposite side of the sector), and because of that strategy, the remaining attacking force may in some cases be outnumbered. I've seen 4 fighters attacking a M6 and my M2 was staying to protect my leader, who was an M3. Genius, really

Needless to say, I've already fixed that, the leader is not a pussy anymore.

This is bewildering. Who thought that behaviour was a good idea! This actually explains a lot of what I assumed was buggy AI when half the fleet members would just hang around the idle leader doing jack shit. :V

[Betelgeuse97]

Well I'm back again. Got plans for 3.0 since 2.9 is around the corner?

Off-topic: Few suggestions.

1. What's your opinion on implementing buildable gates that the player can make and connect to another player-placed gate? Maximum number of gates per sector would be 4 (includes regular ones, so some sectors can't have buildable gates), and a gate takes up 2 OWP slots.

2. Capturable stations using marines. The end result would be a way for the player to perform a clean war, but if some stations aren't under the player's control after a timer, then the station(s) would revert back to the previous owner's control.

3. Playable kha'ak, xenon, and OCV? (OCV ships nerfed for player use in terms of speed and shield. The player can't make OCV guns anyway, so their firepower is effectively nerfed as is.)

[Joubarbe]

Well... I have many ideas, including those you listed. Me not implementing them is not about lack of imagination. Your first idea is technically impossible though. For 2/, there actually are some pieces of the code that were designed with station boarding in mind. And 3/... a whole new world, and lot of things to create and adapt.

The development of 2.9.0 will be finished after the fleet thing. It's already quite big and I need to do a good playthrough before releasing it.
Non-developer people tend to forget that after 2.9.0 comes 2.10.0, and not 3.0

[Ophidian]

Normal feedback stuff -

I've been playing through 2.8.2

Most systems work pretty well so let's talk Marines. I played with them a bit.

Marines were entirely new to me and there wasn't a lot of information I could find. I followed what I could from Google/Patch Notes/Etc.

1. The system is over complicated. Period. Round types??? / Armor / Weapons.

I understand the desire to give "marines" more depth but this didn't seem like a good way to go about it. It looks daunting and isn't intuitive.
Simplicity is key.

2. The time it takes to board / capture a ship is too long. A full group taking an M6 took seemingly forever.

Here, I understand the previous save/reload and desire to dissuade players from doing it. However, you've added an annoying mechanic that
doesn't add value to the game. You have to remember to balance player sanity with your mechanics. More on this..

3. Training marines is incredibly difficult. It's hard to find "low level" craft to board if you're not at war with one of the factions.

This alone made me want to revert a sanctuary back because I felt like I wasted 2 perks for garbage marines incapable of running an M6 with
the "best" ones I could make. Remember that this is the player's introduction to marines and they're struggling to get them to do anything.
Between their level of training and the hours to take a ship it feels crazy.

4. Disintegration rifles. Why? I had to create a whole new factory and supply it for a few rifles.

Again, this is player quality of life. I feel like I'm just wasting time here with unnecessary logistics to get a few rifles. It's not something I need
a steady supply of. It gets used until I have "enough" and abandoned.


---

For the above reasons I ditched the use of marines at all. I feel better off destroying the factory and sanctuary to get the perks I wasted back.

I understand the desire to do something "cool" with Marines but the level of over complication is extreme. X3 doesn't need more complicated
systems. It needs easy to use and understand fun systems.

Please realize I'm a fellow developer and I spent time writing this because I respect your continued effort and I like seeing your mod grow and
develop.

Thanks,
Ophidian

[Black--Snow]

1. The system is over complicated. Period. Round types??? / Armor / Weapons.

I understand the desire to give "marines" more depth but this didn't seem like a good way to go about it. It looks daunting and isn't intuitive.
Simplicity is key.

2. The time it takes to board / capture a ship is too long. A full group taking an M6 took seemingly forever.

Here, I understand the previous save/reload and desire to dissuade players from doing it. However, you've added an annoying mechanic that
doesn't add value to the game. You have to remember to balance player sanity with your mechanics. More on this..

3. Training marines is incredibly difficult. It's hard to find "low level" craft to board if you're not at war with one of the factions.

This alone made me want to revert a sanctuary back because I felt like I wasted 2 perks for garbage marines incapable of running an M6 with
the "best" ones I could make. Remember that this is the player's introduction to marines and they're struggling to get them to do anything.
Between their level of training and the hours to take a ship it feels crazy.

4. Disintegration rifles. Why? I had to create a whole new factory and supply it for a few rifles.

Again, this is player quality of life. I feel like I'm just wasting time here with unnecessary logistics to get a few rifles. It's not something I need
a steady supply of. It gets used until I have "enough" and abandoned.

1.) While I think the marines system is quite daunting at first and the explanations could benefit from being more comprehensive, I think the overall level of complexity for the marines at the current moment is great. Once I got over the initial confusion it provided a really fun way to engage with an otherwise handsoff mechanic.

2.) I really didn't find it took too long at all. I captured an M1 in the time it took it to fly 1.5 sectors worth of distance. Perhaps if you're relying on playing in real time it may feel long, but at 10x SETA it feels pretty well timed.

3.) This is true, you can however send multiple groups of marines at a single ship if the first group(s) fail. Gear quality is a bigger factor than marine training for most things.

4.) Same thing as Advanced Satellites, really. I expected to find Rifles in the laser manufacture section of sanctuaries, but losing a factory slot and a small amount of time didn't feel too bad. This is probably the feedback I'd be most in agreement with, though it feels like a very minor complaint.

Just my two cents.

[Ophidian]

1. The system is over complicated. Period. Round types??? / Armor / Weapons.

I understand the desire to give "marines" more depth but this didn't seem like a good way to go about it. It looks daunting and isn't intuitive.
Simplicity is key.

2. The time it takes to board / capture a ship is too long. A full group taking an M6 took seemingly forever.

Here, I understand the previous save/reload and desire to dissuade players from doing it. However, you've added an annoying mechanic that
doesn't add value to the game. You have to remember to balance player sanity with your mechanics. More on this..

3. Training marines is incredibly difficult. It's hard to find "low level" craft to board if you're not at war with one of the factions.

This alone made me want to revert a sanctuary back because I felt like I wasted 2 perks for garbage marines incapable of running an M6 with
the "best" ones I could make. Remember that this is the player's introduction to marines and they're struggling to get them to do anything.
Between their level of training and the hours to take a ship it feels crazy.

4. Disintegration rifles. Why? I had to create a whole new factory and supply it for a few rifles.

Again, this is player quality of life. I feel like I'm just wasting time here with unnecessary logistics to get a few rifles. It's not something I need
a steady supply of. It gets used until I have "enough" and abandoned.

1.) While I think the marines system is quite daunting at first and the explanations could benefit from being more comprehensive, I think the overall level of complexity for the marines at the current moment is great. Once I got over the initial confusion it provided a really fun way to engage with an otherwise handsoff mechanic.

2.) I really didn't find it took too long at all. I captured an M1 in the time it took it to fly 1.5 sectors worth of distance. Perhaps if you're relying on playing in real time it may feel long, but at 10x SETA it feels pretty well timed.

3.) This is true, you can however send multiple groups of marines at a single ship if the first group(s) fail. Gear quality is a bigger factor than marine training for most things.

4.) Same thing as Advanced Satellites, really. I expected to find Rifles in the laser manufacture section of sanctuaries, but losing a factory slot and a small amount of time didn't feel too bad. This is probably the feedback I'd be most in agreement with, though it feels like a very minor complaint.

Just my two cents.

Quite daunting isn't how a game mechanic should be described. "We have a new system and it's quite daunting at first"

The previous system was hours of training and then a nightmare at times to get marines boarded. It required its own level of finesse for sure.
After that the time to capture was quite small.

For the M6 the time to capture was the distance of a sector back and forth 2 or 3 times at 10x SETA. It seemed unrealistic. It could be halved
and serve the same purpose. What again was the purpose of all the added time again? To prevent players from Save/Reloading? Usually you don't
try and inconvenience players because you dislike save scumming.

Gear may be a factor but from the outset you have zero scrap and scrap generation so gear is nonexistent. It's a chicken egg problem that doesn't
seem balanced in a way where the player feels a natural sense of "progression".

The advanced satellites I'll disagree with. I have to keep those going with fresh scouts to replace the constant destruction mine have. Maybe I need
to switch to 4 advanced per sector or something crazy. Even then I have to ramp up production as I need well over 200 of them to start blanketing
the universe.

I guess you're saying with an m6 you could just send 20 fresh marines and re-up the numbers as they die in order to cap it. Then you'd have scrap
to build proper gear for a few guys? Even then that gear system feels nightmarish.

I didn't approach the system liking or disliking it. I approached it as an interesting looking mechanic I intended to enjoy and ran in to the above issues
that ultimately left a sour taste in my mouth. Too many other things I'd rather invest game time in to.

Ophidian

[IceExplosive]

3. Training marines is incredibly difficult. It's hard to find "low level" craft to board if you're not at war with one of the factions.

In the story plot, you'll open expeditions, where you can train and farm scrap easily. It still does take some time, but on easiest difficulties you can send there 12|14 marines and earn few hundreads of scraps... I ran that with 14 marines and bought for each one of them top gear just via expeditions. (well not after single run)

Also before you open this up early on, try Yaki and their's Chokaros... or companies like Terracorp / Plutach and theirs TM ships.
Also read Wiki.. there's a lot of info about marines and boarding.

2.) I really didn't find it took too long at all. I captured an M1 in the time it took it to fly 1.5 sectors worth of distance.

What?! Thats way too short from my experience. ... haven't tried it with research boost yet, so it might do that huge difference, otherwise at the beginning even a smallest TM takes ages to finish up.... even with a lot of SETA time it MANY times longer than just flying throught two sectors.

[Joubarbe]

"You have to remember to balance player sanity with your mechanics."
I love this one. Play a bit of Pathologic 2

Ok, let's be serious. All your points are valid, except when you say that the M6 is the training ship class. No, it's TM: way easier to board.
The marines system is overly complicated, especially at first. I agree at 100%. That is because with that system, I wanted to experiment a few things (Mayhem is a laboratory), especially the impact a gameplay mechanics can have on the player. Yes, it's very obscure, there's no feeling of it, and it's not as tangible as a good dogfight. But some players went very deep into that and into trying to fully understand it. And that was unexpected.

I won't change anything about marines in 2.9.0. The fleet overhaul is taking a lot of time, and I can't say I dislike the marines as they are right now. Try boarding more TM, and do the various research. And don't forget to watch Hector0x's tutorial series especially the 9th video, about marine equipment.