Will we be able to navigate large capital ships by ourselves in X4?

Snafu_X3 · Post by **Snafu_X3** » Wed, 24. May 17, 01:05

Mr.W have you tried the latest patch? Most of the issues you're still talking about have been addressed (some significantly, some not so)

Eg Balor/Succ fight AI now utilises them at long range (with appropriate targetting solutions); 'roid filed navigation has been addressed by allowing capships to break 'roids on their boost path (not ideal IMO, but it's a start), etc

Don't get me wrong: I'm not oblivious to obvious physical discrepancies (eg no collision dmg; ships getting stuck within structures etc), but at least (& at last!) those things are being addressed. I guess we'll have to wait for the next patch that hopefully focusses on management AI/UI..

Nikola515 · Post by **Nikola515** » Wed, 24. May 17, 15:16

Better late than never I guess

All though there are mods that fixed that long time ago....

Dreez · Post by **Dreez** » Wed, 24. May 17, 21:36

All i know for certain is that:

No capitalship piloting = no buying.
No free complexbuilding = no buying.

X3TC/AB had everything perfect, the only thing missing was planetary interaction in terms of resources.

It it were up to me, i would make X3:TC with X-Rebirth graphics+planetary interaction.

One can dream

.

RodentofDoom · Post by **RodentofDoom** » Thu, 25. May 17, 19:37

Isn't the skunk technically an L class ship anyway ?

mr.WHO · Post by **mr.WHO** » Thu, 25. May 17, 19:40

Nope - it's between S and M size.

L size are Big freighters, Balor, Suls which are many times bigger than Skunk.

Post by **UniTrader** » Thu, 25. May 17, 19:41

not really....

Code: Select all

  <macro name="unit_player_ship_macro" class="ship_s">

builder680 · Post by **builder680** » Sun, 18. Jun 17, 17:45

I played the heck out of X3 and AP but completely skipped this game (Rebirth) specifically because I can't fly other ships, most importantly capitals. I want to pilot my carrier, switch to a fighter, hop in a frigate, and take over a battleship whenever I want. I don't want my choices limited. So count me in if we can pilot capitals again. FWIW.

jkflipflop98 · Post by **jkflipflop98** » Sun, 18. Jun 17, 18:54

I would like to see a half-measure instated. I don't think we should have to actually control the cap ships. That's stupid. It's huge and boring and it takes 90 seconds just to turn 90 degrees. We aren't the helmsman. We aren't in direct control of the ship's flight controls - and that's the way it should be. We're the Admiral of the fleet. Admirals don't steer their own ships. They issue commands to the fleet and expect those orders to be carried out by their crews.

However, if I'm the Admiral and I'm standing on the deck of my carrier and I see that the captain in charge of my ship is about to run into an iceberg - the entire crew better damned well listen when I start yelling to go Full Reverse and right rudder stop. We should have the ability to issue more granular commands.

For example, we currently have the option to "withdraw from battle" - but that's too "high level" to really be useful. When you issue the withdraw command the ship reorients itself and slowly moves around trying to get a good angle on God only knows what before it will finally fire up the boosters. And even then if there's something in the way it will shut the boosters back off and slowly line itself up again before dying from the enemy fire that you're trying to get the ship to fly away from. I want a more granular command where I simply say "Get us the F*ck out of here!!!!1!" and the ship immediately hits the boosters no matter what the hell is in the way. If the enemy ship is there, then RAM THEM and KEEP GOING! We should be able to also say "Just JUMP NOW!!" and the ship just jumps. I don't give a crap where, just make us NOT HERE anymore. If my Fulmekron is fighting another Fulmekron and all the turrets on one side are blown off, I want to be able to say "rotate right 180º" so the ship will roll over and use the turrets on the other side of the ship.

Basically, we need some low-level direct controls of the ship during fights. Other than that, the AI can handle everything.

RAVEN.myst · Post by **RAVEN.myst** » Sun, 18. Jun 17, 19:53

@jkflipflop98: I agree, and nice formulation there. While I'm not necessarily a proponent of personal piloting (or, as you rightly call it, helming) a capital ship (I'm not against it per se - I wouldn't mind it being implemented for those who wanted, I simply wouldn't use it myself), I would very much like the ability to micromanage at least the vessel I am currently on - the ship's captain is the player's underling, so it should be possible to issue more detailed orders. Of course, the interface needs to be thought through carefully, to make it quick ad intuitive to use.

Post by **Nanook** » Mon, 19. Jun 17, 22:53

jkflipflop98 wrote:I would like to see a half-measure instated. I don't think we should have to actually control the cap ships. That's stupid. It's huge and boring and it takes 90 seconds just to turn 90 degrees. We aren't the helmsman. We aren't in direct control of the ship's flight controls - and that's the way it should be.....

And once again, someone is presuming to dictate how others should enjoy the games. The above is your personal opinion, nothing more. Try not to make it sound like everyone else does or should agree with your opinion. Thank you for your consideration of other players' feelings.

jkflipflop98 · Post by **jkflipflop98** » Tue, 20. Jun 17, 10:58

Nanook wrote:
jkflipflop98 wrote:I would like to see a half-measure instated. I don't think we should have to actually control the cap ships. That's stupid. It's huge and boring and it takes 90 seconds just to turn 90 degrees. We aren't the helmsman. We aren't in direct control of the ship's flight controls - and that's the way it should be.....
And once again, someone is presuming to dictate how others should enjoy the games. The above is your personal opinion, nothing more. Try not to make it sound like everyone else does or should agree with your opinion. Thank you for your consideration of other players' feelings.

And once again, you presume to dictate to others how and what to think.

The above is YOUR personal opinion, and nothing more.

If there is room to create an actual helmsman position to allow those that wish to directly control the ship, then great. IMO, I'm a little too busy commanding several other attack fleets while managing trade gaps in my empire.

The LAST thing I want to do is spend five minutes holding left stick so I can dock a capital vessel.

I find it outright disgusting that you feel the need to single posters out like this to use what piddly little amount of "power" you have to launch pedantic little tirades over nothing.

Hopefully you'll refrain from such hostility in the future. Thank you for your consideration of other posters' feelings.

Post by **CBJ** » Tue, 20. Jun 17, 11:04

Enough. Discuss the subject in hand, not each other.

patient zero · Post by **patient zero** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 17:07

builder680 wrote:I played the heck out of X3 and AP but completely skipped this game (Rebirth) specifically because I can't fly other ships, most importantly capitals. I want to pilot my carrier, switch to a fighter, hop in a frigate, and take over a battleship whenever I want. I don't want my choices limited. So count me in if we can pilot capitals again. FWIW.

+1

I don't want to be a spectator sitting on the bridge watching bots play the game. I like pulling the trigger with my own finger. Also, the single ship restriction was the reason why I abandoned "Dark Star One" ten years ago in favor of X3.

TDQuasar · Post by **TDQuasar** » Tue, 4. Jul 17, 19:05

I played thousands of hours with X3 and one of my favorite activities (well I pretty much enjoyed everything in it) was to pilot capitals. I love it and I hope it will be available in X4 as well.

lplates · Post by **lplates** » Fri, 4. Aug 17, 12:16

I also enjoyed flying capital ships in X3.

My favourite play style was to travel in the big ships (usually a carrier) and then jump into docked fighters (leading a wing) or fast scout ships as the situation required.

I also loved having the ability to call in my other big support ships to a specific location although this could have worked better.

AI pathing is for me the main priority but being able to take direct control is always desirable.

I suppose I would be happy to give up direct control of cap ships if the bridge/commander capabilites were better. Things like formations for caps and smaller support ships would go a long way to solving the issues in my view.

DuckTales · Post by **DuckTales** » Tue, 8. Aug 17, 02:38

Hello everyone,

I am sorry but I kind of can't understand most of the discussion around here.

I played X:BTF, X2, X3 - Reunion, completely loved all of them. A bit about each one:

On X:BTF you had only one ship which you could upgrade and had most of the core concepts of the X-series (buying and issuing orders to another ships, buying stations, managing productions, an economy, a "breathing" universe, the foundations of an empire building).
Then came X-Tension which had no storyline but allowed you to fly most of the ships, with this and the previous features the X-universe came apart from any other space sim at the time and it was naturally a success.

X2 then was the continuation from the plot from X:BTF with it features and the ability to fly any spaceship just like the X-Tension. It was an overall improvement of the franchise with a new engine, features, technology etc.

Then came X3 - Reunion and WOW, that was a leap. Very improved graphics, physics tweaked, abundant content and liberty. So much to do and in so many ways. You could own and pilot yourself most of the things that existed and influence the universe. It felt more lively than ever!

Til then every ship had a cockpit but in X3 I only had a camera attached to the top of it, but soon I was used to it and enjoyed the bigger view of the universe and my surroundings.

Being able to own and tweak most of what exists in the universe is what puts the X-series apart from any other game and franchise. Achieving most of the things possible aren't easy but the feeling of accomplishment that I feel whenever I finally surpass a hurdle or learn/do something new is awesome.

Now, I am sorry, but the X:R seems only like a dumbed down version of X-series for console. It doesn't even have collision damage!

Ramming was a weapon til then. It is natural! I am sorry but it feels that this "design decision" is only a poor excuse for the constant complaints about the bad AI from the previous game, which continues as bad or worse in this installment and which we can constate this by watching those pirates ramming their noses and shooting nonstop at stations/ships or in us, and in this way we can't shoot at them because at the first time we hit the station we receive a warning, at the second hit everything in the zone turns red on us... So we need to ram them so they get away from the station so we can kill them! (when they do clip inside then there is nothing we can do...)

There are many more "design decisions" on X:R that seems like "poor excuses" or even "plain lies" to the player, so he can "think" that indeed there is something...

About the Capital ships, X3 did everything right as I see. They don't have direct guns so you can't fly and shoot at the same time, but you could give orders to the different sections of turrets and in this way control their behavior. You could start the auto-pilot or issue orders to your own spaceship whenever you liked! There is AI, there is Betty, so even if you are in a S/M, M3, M4, M5 etc, this doesn't prevent you from automating your flight while you do anything else!

Then if you were in a cap ship your turrets were automated, but you could start the autopilot or issue an order while you hop into the turrets to shoot. There even were things that could only be done by the player like charge the PPC!

Cap ships are slow, turn slow etc, but you don't need to pilot them, but you can if you wish.

It is the freedom one of the most important thing in the X-Universe. You can have a complex, you can be a commerce mogul, you can be a pirate, you can fly fighters and capital ships or issue orders to squads and single ships.

Sorry for the wall of text

Post by **Sparky Sparkycorp** » Tue, 8. Aug 17, 10:07

DuckTales wrote: I played X:BTF, X2, X3 - Reunion, completely loved all of them. A bit about each one:
...
Now, I am sorry, but the X:R seems only like a dumbed down version of X-series for console.

I missed the buildup to the release of X Rebirth so I only have secondhand info about intentions, but forum users often equate XR to an X:BTF-style reboot, with Egosoft often stating that their next game will take the XR engine in the direction of a sequel to X3 (e.g. "X4", and allowing the piloting of more ships). As things stand, those statements doesn't relate to piloting capital ships though.

Nevertheless, XR has several areas of gameplay, like capital ship combat, boarding, station construction, station theft, pirates acting like pirates, and aspects of trading, that are more nuanced that in earlier games so I don't agree it's dumbed down.

DuckTales wrote: It doesn't even have collision damage!

Ramming was a weapon til then. It is natural!

It feels cheesy to me in X3:AP. My ship is bigger that target? Check. I can ram it easily because they don't avoid easily? Check. It will probably be insta-killed with zero damage or speed loss to me if I have shields even though I've just rammed something ~20m to ~3km long? Check. XR had shield collision damage for a while so I imagine collision damage in some form will be considered for X4.

DuckTales wrote: (when they do clip inside then there is nothing we can do...)

Although it is also cheesy, the work-around for them getting stuck in station/ship geometry is to go out of sight (OOZ is often enough) and then either go back (they will have typically flown out) or order friendly ships to kill them (not friendly fire while out of sight).

DuckTales wrote: They don't have direct guns so you can't fly and shoot at the same time, but you could give orders to the different sections of turrets and in this way control their behavior.

Some M7s and M2s, like the Deimos and Pteranodon, do have manually-fired main guns but they were in the minority.

DuckTales wrote: There even were things that could only be done by the player like charge the PPC!

Correct use of capital ship lasers was another example I think, but these feel more like problems with the AI and/or bugs to me.

Edit: Typos...

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Tue, 15. Aug 17, 01:41

I don't mind not having the option to fly cap ships. As long as I can fly everything smaller than an M6, I'm fine with that.

If they can focus and give us a good space combat simulator for the smaller ships, that's fine by me. I know they won't be able to tackle everything, and if they do, they'll probably fail. Egosoft is a pretty small company after all.

Give us a good fleet control option for cap ships (something like Homeworld), and focus on making the rest of the game great, and we should be good.

I've played all the previous X-games, and in my opinion. cap ships are just not done well. They are just big massive fighters with turrets, and that's it. Cap ship combat should be different, and I'm afraid they won't be able to get it right (cap ship is an strategic weapon, not a tactical weapon)... So focus on fighter combat, and leave cap ships to the AI... But give us a decent AI at least...

spankahontis · Post by **spankahontis** » Tue, 15. Aug 17, 22:05

caleb wrote:I don't mind not having the option to fly cap ships. As long as I can fly everything smaller than an M6, I'm fine with that.

If they can focus and give us a good space combat simulator for the smaller ships, that's fine by me. I know they won't be able to tackle everything, and if they do, they'll probably fail. Egosoft is a pretty small company after all.

Give us a good fleet control option for cap ships (something like Homeworld), and focus on making the rest of the game great, and we should be good.

I've played all the previous X-games, and in my opinion. cap ships are just not done well. They are just big massive fighters with turrets, and that's it. Cap ship combat should be different, and I'm afraid they won't be able to get it right (cap ship is an strategic weapon, not a tactical weapon)... So focus on fighter combat, and leave cap ships to the AI... But give us a decent AI at least...

I always liked flying the Vidar, not too slow with a good arsenal of Terran Weapons.

I agree with others that to have 'Gun turrets' that you can enter and use while on Capitals and Cruisers sounds like an awesome idea.
It reminds me of theat scene from Star Wars: A New Hope where Luke is inside that gun turret shooting at the Tie Fighters. That would be epic!

I hope they are able to issue us with a Ship Bridge and with that a tactical bridge with access to a screen that deals in Fleet Management for tactical battles, proper formations, skirmish abilities etc.

A5PECT · Post by **A5PECT** » Tue, 15. Aug 17, 22:37

If we're going to be flying capitals, we're going to need to see lots of improvements to turret control compared to X3.

Digging through the command menu every time you wanted to issue a ceasefire or get your turrets to switch targets was... less than ideal.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Will we be able to navigate large capital ships by ourselves in X4?