Reports of explosion at Manchester Arena concert

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Post by Ketraar » Wed, 24. May 17, 15:26

Morkonan wrote:Protestant vs Catholic violence in Ireland is/was, IMO, more of a political conflict incorporating overall rejection of authority.
Isn't that true for all though? meaning, religious doctrines are "adjusted" and bent to fit political agendas. Sure Christians dont do the bomb things at large (even though it still happens), but many other crimes are committed in the name of Christianity/religion. And I'm not even just talking about broad discrimination in so called civilized countries, or why US politicians keep invoking god to bless them and the like. I talking about jailing people for adultery, mutilating babies for tradition, etc.

Saying religion is responsible for people actions is at least misleading, but imho untrue and frankly serves only to hype fear and produce "news". Culture and economics have a much bigger impact in peoples actions (and beliefs) than religion ever had. But changing or adapting any of them is not going to happen as long as people have the "they are of religion XY" excuse.

IMHO ignoring the true roots of the issues we face these days only serves to perpetuate the cycle. Of course the ISIS idiots will claim any attack, the work to make people afraid (the terror bit) is mostly made by media and people using these attacks to push their agendas, one could argue that a attack here and there serves to keep people focussed, or distracted depending.

A comedian on the radio made a remark that I found interesting. On TV the horors of the bombing were shown, people injured, afraid, chaos all over the place. The shocking truth of an attack, with all its brutality. The only thing the TV thought would be important to censor, was a fleeing person's "f*ck" that had to be bleeped. Priorities I guess. :roll:

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Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 24. May 17, 17:22

pjknibbs wrote:He was born in Manchester and lived here for many years. Having Libyan parents does not make him "from Libya".
Beat me to it, thanks for making that point.
Lets please not play into the hands of the "travel ban" people by spreading false information.

ISIS don't need to do their own propaganda work to promote hatred fear and division. All they need to do is fire the starting gun and then the reactionary right wing commentators (Hopkins etc) are quite happy do it for them.
Its also worth pointing out that a prevailing narrative of "This group are not to be trusted" is a large part of the process of radicalising members of "this group".
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Post by Rednoahl » Wed, 24. May 17, 22:39

mrbadger wrote:You just can't stick labels on people and say that's why they did a thing, it doesn't work.

What does 'Devout' mean?
What does 'Muslim' mean?
What does 'Terrorist' mean?
What does 'Lunatic' mean?
What does any label mean?

Nothing if you're trying to explain why someone would strap a bomb on to themselves and blow up a load of innocent people. You could use all of them, and I bet none of them would be right....

The IRA were terrorists, but they didn't go in for suicide bombing. So does suicide bombing make you a terrorist? Or does it make you something else?
Besides, most of the IRA are good guys now.

In fact depending on who's history you read, they always were (I personally would dispute this except in a few cases). The world isn't that simple, labels don't work.

I suspect this guy had to have some kind of mental illness, and that got exploited by someone else to the extent that he was convinced to kill himself in this appalling way.

I never ever see these events and think 'oh, it's just those Muslims fault'. That's a lazy as it is absurd.

You might as well see a road crash and blame the goverment for building roads, it would make as much sense....
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Anyone who would willingly blow themselves up to kill innocent children for the chance at getting 72 virgins is my enemy. You can call them what you want, paint them any colour but it will not change the fact that they are my enemy.

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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 24. May 17, 23:03

Ketraar wrote:
Morkonan wrote:Protestant vs Catholic violence in Ireland is/was, IMO, more of a political conflict incorporating overall rejection of authority.
Isn't that true for all though? meaning, religious doctrines are "adjusted" and bent to fit political agendas. ...
No, it's not true for all circumstances. And, it's much more difficult for a single person or small group to co-opt a religious belief for their own uses if that religion has an acknowledged, centralized, authority for religious matters. ie: "Organized Religion"

IMO, for radical Islam, it has become a somewhat institutionalized method for power-hungry religious leaders. Because there is no true, acknowledged, central authority that can weigh-in on the sorts of religious matters these self-styled clerics use to manipulate their adherents, they have an amazingly easy way to abuse a powerful force in the lives of their followers. They can "interpret" whatever religious teachings in virtually whatever way they wish from a position of implied authority. All they have to do is memorize a book, more or less.

Of particular importance, IMO, in regards to the radicalization of Islam is the interpretation of the necessity of the "Islamic State." In short, Islam incorporates a much broader range of human behavior and institutions than the other Abrahamic faiths traditionally do. There is no cry for a "religious" government in Christianity, for instance. (Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.) Judaism has some fundamentalist formal legal principles commonly more cultural than being religious dictates. (Jewish religious "courts" amounting to true religion-based legal systems in certain communities, I forget what they're called at the moment.) But, in the traditional and often radicalized interpretation of Islam, there is absolutely no separation between Islam and "the State." This is one of the primary motivating religious factors used by many radical Islamic movements and this call doesn't exist in many/most other religions. In a real sense, this view of Islam is entirely political.

A very good article/opinion piece on this aspect: http://www.hoover.org/research/religiou ... -terrorism

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Post by pjknibbs » Wed, 24. May 17, 23:10

Rednoahl wrote: Anyone who would willingly blow themselves up to kill innocent children for the chance at getting 72 virgins is my enemy. You can call them what you want, paint them any colour but it will not change the fact that they are my enemy.
And that's all 1.6 billion Muslims world-wide, is it? Or is it that there are a few loonies who happen to be Muslim carrying out this sort of act? It's a fairly crucial difference, I'm sure you'll agree.

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Post by Ketraar » Wed, 24. May 17, 23:42

@Morkonan
I understand now better what you mean and I agree in general, but the reasons as to why it is that way in detail, I think is not as straightforward. Islam has 2 main "factions" as you mentioned, that basically fight for control. This is not too different how the Catholics came to be, it just happened sooner. It also was a bloody mess (literally). The reason why there are not many "Christian" people doing attacks is that people are not as attached to their scripts. With the obvious exception, most people would not think to live their lives based on the literal wordings of a Bible. But the question is, why? Why dont people do that? Has it not rather more to do with education and enlightenment?

Also a quick diversion for comparison. Why are we not banning al bankers and CEOs? Flint water crisis had 14 deaths and an estimated (low number) 6000 injured. Paul Ryan's removal of 24 MILLION people from coverage will result in an estimate 20 THOUSAND MORE DEATHS PER YEAR. Just to mention 2 of many examples.

I'm not saying suicide bombers should be ignored, but the amount of outrage and media coverage give these acts is disproportional. The conspiracy theorist will claim one serves to hide the other, which may not be far from the truth, even if not purposely orchestrated.

Maybe consumerism is our true religion and that is why we dont blow stuff but kill people in more subtle ways, but is it less tragic?

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Post by felter » Thu, 25. May 17, 04:27

SO the UK police say to America, Yeah we know who the bomber is, his name is whatever it is, but please don't tell anyone while we hunt down his accomplices, we don't want to give them fair warning that we know who he was, and were coming after them

What's the first thing the Americans do but leak that information to the press. Why does anyone tell the Americans anything that is confidential, if it isn't Trump telling the world, it's their so called intelligence agencies, I use the word intelligence pretty damn loosely as they don't seem to have any.
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Post by mrbadger » Thu, 25. May 17, 08:53

felter wrote:SO the UK police say to America, Yeah we know who the bomber is, his name is whatever it is, but please don't tell anyone while we hunt down his accomplices, we don't want to give them fair warning that we know who he was, and were coming after them

What's the first thing the Americans do but leak that information to the press. Why does anyone tell the Americans anything that is confidential, if it isn't Trump telling the world, it's their so called intelligence agencies, I use the word intelligence pretty damn loosely as they don't seem to have any.
Yeah, now we can't trust the US? Useful that...

They better get their house in order, or the flow of high level anti-terrorism data is going to slow significantly, or start becoming less useful older intel. If they leak too much it might even stop.
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Post by X2-Illuminatus » Thu, 25. May 17, 10:58

felter wrote:Why does anyone tell the Americans anything that is confidential...
Everyone tells the Americans, because they have the biggest intelligence agencies, which acquire information from and operate all over the world. The USA are also a big target of international terrorism. So by sharing information different countries want to inform their ally about possible threats on the one side; on the other they hope to get additional information about the person(s) or the incident in question. Lastly, as you mentioned already, they want to make clear whether they want to handle the situation themselves or need external help. Something which obviously didn't work this time.
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Post by felter » Thu, 25. May 17, 12:26

X2-Illuminatus wrote:
felter wrote:Why does anyone tell the Americans anything that is confidential...
Everyone tells the Americans, because they have the biggest intelligence agencies, which acquire information from and operate all over the world. The USA are also a big target of international terrorism. So by sharing information different countries want to inform their ally about possible threats on the one side; on the other they hope to get additional information about the person(s) or the incident in question. Lastly, as you mentioned already, they want to make clear whether they want to handle the situation themselves or need external help. Something which obviously didn't work this time.
What are you saying, the US press is part of the American intelligence agency. I know why we give them this information, but I'm asking WHY do we give it to them as they just leak it, and it looks like Manchester police agree with me, as they have now stopped giving confidential information to the Americans, never seen that coming now did we.
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Post by Chips » Thu, 25. May 17, 18:44

Why are people saying that intel sharing may "stop" because they leaked a guys name, and or a few pictures? Upon what basis do you know this will happen?
felter wrote: but I'm asking WHY do we give it to them as they just leak it, and it looks like Manchester police agree with me, as they have now stopped giving confidential information to the Americans, never seen that coming now did we.
"as they just leak it" - leak what, the name and some pictures? that's not *all* the intel the UK shares surely? It is also info the police would have given to the media fairly shortly anyway.

People shouldn't overreact or make such sweeping statements as "stop sharing intel" over this.

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Post by CBJ » Thu, 25. May 17, 20:06

This BBC news article wrote:Greater Manchester Police were said to be "furious" and said they would stop sharing information with the US.
Various other BBC reports on the radio today have said the same thing. However all of them have been regarding information about this particular case, not intel in general.

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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 25. May 17, 20:49

Ketraar wrote:@Morkonan
I understand now better what you mean and I agree in general, but the reasons as to why it is that way in detail, I think is not as straightforward. Islam has 2 main "factions" as you mentioned, that basically fight for control. This is not too different how the Catholics came to be, it just happened sooner.
Yes, no, not really... The Catholic Church "began" with Jesus's disciple Peter. The various schisms occurred because of interpretations of scripture and practices of the church. (And other stuffs)

AFAIK, the great schism in Islam began over who was the legitimate successor as head of Islam after Muhammad.
It also was a bloody mess (literally). The reason why there are not many "Christian" people doing attacks is that people are not as attached to their scripts.
I'd have to disagree, there. That would imply that the difference is that Christians are not as religious as Muslims... So, logically, that would imply that pacifists must be least religious people, ever. :) IOW - You can not go about looking at this by lumping the different religious beliefs together as some sort of generic religious variable. The substance of those religious beliefs matters greatly.

There is no Manifest Destiny clause in Christianity, no call to establish religious rule over subjects in the secular world. AFAIK, some forms of Islam still seek to establish Islam as a holistic, political and religious, doctrine. There's the primary defining difference in this particular matter.

(Note: ISIS is not only attempting to quickly establish a caliphate, but attempting to embroil the world in an Armeggedon-like war, which will bring about the end of the world and the appearance of the Mahdi, AFAIK. The establishment of the caliphate is critical if this prophecy is to be fulfilled, AFAIK.)
With the obvious exception, most people would not think to live their lives based on the literal wordings of a Bible. But the question is, why? Why dont people do that? Has it not rather more to do with education and enlightenment?
Not sure I quite understand the question. Why don't people live by a literal interpretation of religious doctrine? I imagine some do just that. But, what is agreed upon as a "literal interpretation" can be argued, too. Some religions, like Christianity, have clear changes in doctrine, sort of like their own "reformations" as well. ("The New Covenant" represented by the Christ.)

There's no mention of cell phones in the Bible. So, how does one apply Christian religious beliefs in the matter of cell phones? Reforming, discussing, interpreting, ancient religious practices in order to apply them to the modern day can be difficult, especially, very much especially, if a religious practice is dogmatic and seemingly inviolate and unchangeable. In Christianity, the general gist of the New Testament appears to provide a much more broad directive than specific practices when compared to the Old Testament. "Love" is the order of the day, across all things. This flexibility and ease of application contributes to the idea of "The Living Word" of holy scripture - It's as easy to apply one's beliefs today as it will be tomorrow and the next day, no matter the situation.
Also a quick diversion for comparison. Why are we not banning al bankers and CEOs? Flint water crisis had 14 deaths and an estimated (low number) 6000 injured. Paul Ryan's removal of 24 MILLION people from coverage will result in an estimate 20 THOUSAND MORE DEATHS PER YEAR. Just to mention 2 of many examples.
Prove that people intentionally caused these deaths or injuries and they will certainly be put in jail. But, if one banker or CEO did some of these things, does that mean that all bankers and CEOs should be jailed? If there were no bankers, money would not flow and if money did not flow, poverty would be rampant. A "CEO" is nothing more than the head decision-maker of a company, whether it's publicly traded or not. Is that a criminal occupation?
I'm not saying suicide bombers should be ignored, but the amount of outrage and media coverage give these acts is disproportional. The conspiracy theorist will claim one serves to hide the other, which may not be far from the truth, even if not purposely orchestrated.
They're different, for one. It's natural to try to group "like things" together. It makes making sense of a complicated world just a bit easier. But, these are not "like things" - They are not equivalent. Nobody, for instance, deliberately put deadly bacteria in people's water in order to murder them.

But, people do pay more attention to things that can effect them and their empathy, and strong sense of self-preservation, attract their attention to the things happening to other people that could effect them as well. Flint is an isolated case and isn't capable of effecting someone not in Flint. Terrorism is a mobile, dynamic, intelligently directed and purposeful threat of murder that could, possibly, maybe, might... effect anyone who could be a target. For terrorists, legitimate targets seem to be anyone who isn't them.
Maybe consumerism is our true religion and that is why we dont blow stuff but kill people in more subtle ways, but is it less tragic?
People's attention can be easily gained and that attention can be manipulated. In that regard, a news agency and a terrorism organization aren't very different from each other. But, that variable isn't the one that has the most bearing on what these two, very different, things are, is it?

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Post by felter » Thu, 25. May 17, 21:41

Chips wrote:"as they just leak it" - leak what, the name and some pictures? that's not *all* the intel the UK shares surely? It is also info the police would have given to the media fairly shortly anyway.
The problem is they were still looking for his accomplices at the time, the worst thing in that case is letting them know that they knew who the perpetrator is, and that they know his name, and that as they know all of this they know who is associated with. This allows them the opportunity to leave, as they have been fore warned that the police are probably looking for them. This is why they asked that his name not be released for at least another 36 hours. Same with the pictures of the detonator, as it shows they know what it looks like, it also lets whomever is behind the detonator to know that the police know about it, also given them fair warning that the police are probably about to knock on their door, allowing them to either abscond before they get there, or allowing them time to dispose of any evidence, like other detonators or material for making those detonators, before the police can get there. Without the pictures and names being released, these people do not know what evidence the police have, so these things being released is a pretty handy thing for them to know.

Put it this way, if the police were going to make a lets say a drug bust in the morning, would it be wise for them to phone up the press the night before to let them know what was going to happen, and allow them to broadcast it on the evening news the night before. As that is basically what the Americans did do.
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Post by Nanook » Thu, 25. May 17, 22:03

felter wrote:
Chips wrote:"as they just leak it" - leak what, the name and some pictures? that's not *all* the intel the UK shares surely? It is also info the police would have given to the media fairly shortly anyway.
The problem is they were still looking for his accomplices at the time, the worst thing in that case is letting them know that they knew who the perpetrator is, and that they know his name, and that as they know all of this they know who is associated with. This allows them the opportunity to leave, as they have been fore warned that the police are probably looking for them. This is why they asked that his name not be released for at least another 36 hours. Same with the pictures of the detonator, as it shows they know what it looks like, it also lets whomever is behind the detonator to know that the police know about it, also given them fair warning that the police are probably about to knock on their door, allowing them to either abscond before they get there, or allowing them time to dispose of any evidence, like other detonators or material for making those detonators, before the police can get there. Without the pictures and names being released, these people do not know what evidence the police have, so these things being released is a pretty handy thing for them to know.

Put it this way, if the police were going to make a lets say a drug bust in the morning, would it be wise for them to phone up the press the night before to let them know what was going to happen, and allow them to broadcast it on the evening news the night before. As that is basically what the Americans did do.
A couple of logic flaws in this. First, any accomplice with a grain of intelligence would know that their days were numbered once the bomb went off. So they'd most likely be 'heading for the hills' anyway. If not, they're so dumb that any released info probably wouldn't have an effect.

Second, drug bust comparisons are irrelevant. The dealers wouldn't have any idea they were even being looked at/for, unlike a bombing accomplice.

So you can rant and rave about leaked information all you want. I seriously doubt it would make that much difference in the hunt for accomplices. :roll:
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Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 25. May 17, 22:45

Morkonan wrote: There is no Manifest Destiny clause in Christianity, no call to establish religious rule over subjects in the secular world.
And yet we still had the Crusades a few hundred years ago--weren't they all about establishing Christian rule over non-Christians in the Middle East?

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Post by Avis » Thu, 25. May 17, 23:14

pjknibbs wrote:
Morkonan wrote: There is no Manifest Destiny clause in Christianity, no call to establish religious rule over subjects in the secular world.
And yet we still had the Crusades a few hundred years ago--weren't they all about establishing Christian rule over non-Christians in the Middle East?
Possibly more about good oldie stealing other peoples stuff and getting paid for doing it.

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Post by Santi » Fri, 26. May 17, 00:20

pjknibbs wrote:And yet we still had the Crusades a few hundred years ago--weren't they all about establishing Christian rule over non-Christians in the Middle East?
I may be wrong but weren't the crusades about reclaiming the Holy land were Christianity was born.
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Post by theeclownbroze » Fri, 26. May 17, 00:40

Santi wrote:
pjknibbs wrote:And yet we still had the Crusades a few hundred years ago--weren't they all about establishing Christian rule over non-Christians in the Middle East?
I may be wrong but weren't the crusades about reclaiming the Holy land were Christianity was born.
This and also, pointing out the flaws in a religion that occured more than 300 years ago and more or less modernised until now, reformed and became politically correct certainly doesn't address the argument and cause of another religions failures.

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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 26. May 17, 00:46

pjknibbs wrote:
Morkonan wrote: There is no Manifest Destiny clause in Christianity, no call to establish religious rule over subjects in the secular world.
And yet we still had the Crusades a few hundred years ago--weren't they all about establishing Christian rule over non-Christians in the Middle East?
I'd be fine with donning a cool set of armor and running around praising the Sun and saving damsels in distress... if that's the era that you suggest we all should return to in order to establish some false sense of direct equality and comparison between the savagery evident in the modern-day atrocities committed by violent religious extremists and whatever one could possibly come up with in the past of other religions, no matter how many hundreds of years one is willing to reach into the past...

The Mayans engaged in ritual human sacrifice! They're certainly worse than these terrorists, right? Oh, wait, it's possible human ancestors engaged in violent cannibalism! That's certainly at least as bad, right?

Reformation has occurred in most religions, to one degree or another. Even Islam. However, because of its ongoing internal conflicts, many sects have not embraced reforms or reinterpretations.

* The Crusades were not because of some doctrinal territorial imperative, but spurred on, originally, by a Pope's attempt to consolidate power and to establish strong political position, which the Church maintained for a very long time, turning the Church into a quasi-political force capable of dominating every regime in which it had adherents. Though, IMO, there could very well have been a sense of religious necessity in preventing heretical control of Jerusalem, that may not have been the original cause, just the broadly appealing excuse. Coming "to the rescue" of another Christian power would have also been appealing.

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