Bethesda, Fallout, Elder Scrolls (Probably future spoilers)

[Golden_Gonads]

I'm somewhat bemused by the 'Creation Club', in the case of Fallout 4, supposedly it's not paid mods because the creators will technically be employed by Bethesda (in the same way the bog cleaner at the Houses of Parliament is a civil servant), but any creations can't be official DLC as when the Season Pass was first sold it was said it would contain any and all official DLC...

So they won't be mods, they won't be DLC... What are they?

[Jericho]

Yes, well that happens when you use assets from mod X which depends on assets from mod Y which depends on assets from mod Z.

Yes, hence my comment. Thanks for quoting me and then repeating it!

Copyright (and basic courtesy) forbids the solution of stripping the assets out of those mods and putting them in your own, therefore they need those mods.

Obviously.
I wasn't suggesting that people rip the content from others (as demonstrated by my lack of suggesting that people rip the content from others). I was pointing out the inherent flaw in the system of free mods that work in this manor. Paid mods simply cannot work in this way, it is unacceptable for paying customers. Therefore the people complaining about paid mods need to think stop thinking that paid mods are all about reducing the weight of a shotgun by 50%, or tweaking the breast size of a companion that someone else created based on the Buffy model that someone else created.

Similarly, mods need assets from the game itself as a base, and when developers patch their games, they can change these assets causing issues with mods that are dependent on them.

Geeee, ya think?!?!?!?!?

Obviously this will not happen with paid mods.

The mod descriptions always assume that you are an expert in installing mods and know what every acronym means.

They could make it a bit easier, sure, but I'd argue that if you want to install more than a couple of minor mods, it's incumbent on you to understand exactly what you are doing and what might go wrong. A little research helps to understand the issues, and you'll pick up the acronyms soon enough.

Understanding what is needed to install more than one mod and how they might interact with each other (or conflict with each other) is obviously necessary. But why do you argue that a person who installs more than a couple of minor mods is held to a higher level of understanding that someone who just wants better item sorting? What is the cutoff level? If they only install a couple of minor mods as you put it, why does the person that installs 3 minor mods need to understand what various acronyms mean? Why is the level of complexity an issue? Why do you feel that someone who wants to install a mod to reduce the weight of junk items is more entitled to a free pass in understanding than someone who wants to install the SkyUi? Does the nexusMods website suddenly change after you install a couple of minor mods, and all subsequent mods are more poorly explained? That is what you are implying. What I am talking about is the fact that you can pick any random mod, of any level of complexity, and there is the chance that it is poorly explained or poorly packaged, or when you look at the relevant download section, it is poorly laid out and implemented with confusing labels on the downloads "you might want this version if you run dan's hjk-Version4 mod" "or this version if you don't" etc etc. (So does that mean that I only need that version if I run dan's mod at anythign other than v4? Or I only need it if I don't run Dan's mod at all? Who is dan? What is hjk? Is that the real name? I searched for dan and found 300 of them, and I searched for hjk, and there wasn't a single hit. Oh! dan is the name of the mod Davokin of Nirn! And hjk is the name of the modder!" etc etc

A formal paid-process will eliminate the levels of ambiguity (I would bloody well expect it to anyway)

They need to instigate a few basic boxes to check before the mods can be released, or at least moderate a little. That said their ModManager is better than the default stuff fro Bethesda games, it just is a bit clunky with download locations and autoupdates (I haven't touched it in a year).

What exactly is being asked by these checkboxes, and what stops them from checking them regardless?

What 'exactly' is being asked? I don't know. I'm not going to spend the next 3 months sitting down with the modding community, the NexusMods staff, and the average users of the mods to establish what is needed and what is possible. So, I'm sorry, I can't provide you with exactly what is being asked.

However, forcing the mod submitter to run through a checklist about:
1) Is my mod packaged in correct way, as identified in the formal process?
2) Does my mod have a unique name?
3) Does my mod file structure represent the mod name, and when I inevitably abbreviate it, does it conflict with existing mod names?
4) If I'm producing a new piece of armor, have I checked the 'Armor' box, and not just spammed everything so people think they're getting a new quest and house and island and companion?
5) Does my mod do exactly what 328 other mods already do? Does mine suitably distinguish itself from the others that do the same?
6) Have I copy&pasted the standard set of instructions for installation (and does my mod follow those instructions)?

That kind of checklist. Then next time I sit down and start to play with mods, I'll try to write down a list of all the issues and get it back to you, so you can continue your exploration into exactly what is needed.
As to the penalties of just checking those boxes and ignoring the checklist, geee now, let me think. Erm... Removal of the mod? Wouldn't that make sense? They haven't followed the process, so the mod is removed. Hence my comment about moderation.

I used a lot of wonderful construction mods for Fallout4, but they were so horribly interlinked with each other, as soon as one changed, it all fell apart.

And this is the reason that you need to do your research.

Nope, you've lost me. How does someone updating their mod after I've started using it, mean that I didn't do my research?

This is not just a problem with Bethesda games. You will encounter it in any game you want to mod. When two mods are trying to mod the same content, you'll get a problem, whether it's Fallout 4 or Albion Prelude.

I didn't claim otherwise. I've had lots of 'fun' with Freelancer, and all my own modding over the years. The weeks I spent modding Daggerfall to make Daedric robes by pokeing and watching for code value changes only to be fooled by the music changing and thinking that those were the values that I was poking. Sigh... Happy days.




I'm really sorry that you think I'm attacking Skyrim@NexusMods and their ModManger (how long have you worked for them?). I'm just pointing out that the people complaining about paid mods are either misunderstanding what the plan is, or are justifying the current hit&miss nature of the free mods that we all enjoy. Paying for a 'bigger' mod will be as painless as DLC (Cue someone linking to broken DLC or Horse Armor) and will work with the main product and it's updates. It won't be the same as NexusMods where you have to solve a logic puzzle to work out if the mod will work with the other mods you have installed based on the submitter's use of language "Dont install dis mod if u dont allready installed uzbys mod to remov wait limitz"

Personally, I think that if someone has created a new line of armor, and made it fit into the game without breaking it, they diverse to be rewarded with more than comments saying "Works." or "Make it stronger." or "Gaffys armer is better"
If that armor is a rip-off of WonderWoman, then no, you probably won't be paid, because 'the law' and stuff.

Where people have spent a lot of time making all the available world items available for use in the Fallout 4 settlement building, well they've done the work, but it was bethesda's assets. So I guess the revenue split is in order?


"We don't need no stinkin' paid mods round here," say the Guardians of Mods as they chew their tobacco on their front porch, shotgun in hand...

[Morkonan]

...
A formal paid-process will eliminate the levels of ambiguity (I would bloody well expect it to anyway)...

One would hope, at least.

However, game devs/producers have a vested interest in modding communities for their games.

Go to any game forum on Steam that is for a game that can be modded and how many "How does I get mod2werk zomgz dis game sucks" threads will one find?

For every crappy mod, every bad modder, every mod that breaks, constantly, there's a game dev screaming "What are they doing to my game and why are people not buying it."

BUT... there are also games that are bought almost exclusively because some modder has put a lot of work into developing a great mod.

Because of this, mod communities have long begged for greater mod support from games, more communications between devs and mod communities, more robust modding options, etc, in order to increase the quality of their mods. Presumably, that would help everyone, including the gamers playing the games.

Bethesda is trying to formalize this whole thing and put it under a mantle that is economically beneficial. Sure, they look forward to the money, but I think their interests are a bit broader, too. With a formal modding community that functions basically as an subcontracted content developer, they can leverage that for future games.

I agree it's a good idea. I am just sincerely concerned for the indie developers getting eventually pushed out of the loop or being purposefully shut out. Mod communities do some loose form of stewardship, already, but for paid mods, it certainly needs to be ramped up. Bethesda et al can do that under a paywall, certainly.

However, free mods are what everyone really wants... and they will continue to be made by enthusiasts who just want to release good free mods. We all need to watch to be sure that free mods don't end up being locked out by payway mod schemes.

[clakclak]

The elder scrolls 6 not yet in development. I think that is a Bad business decision. Everyone wants another TES, it would be safe money.

[pjknibbs]

The elder scrolls 6 not yet in development. I think that is a Bad business decision. Everyone wants another TES, it would be safe money.

I think the *last* thing we want to be doing is encouraging AAA developers to go after the safe money even more than they already do, frankly. These other games Bethesda are working on might be absolutely awesome, let's wait and see what they're like before saying it was a mistake not to develop TES 6.

[eladan]

Snip

A little touchy, aren't we.

Hey, the takeaway I got from your entire post was that it was all too hard and you didn't want to put any effort into it, and it was all the fault of those lousy modders, the lazy buggers!

I thought I was being fairly polite with my response, how about keeping things civil?

Similarly, mods need assets from the game itself as a base, and when developers patch their games, they can change these assets causing issues with mods that are dependent on them.

Geeee, ya think?!?!?!?!?

Obviously this will not happen with paid mods.

If the game is being actively patched, of course it will happen. The devs aren't going to avoid certain bits of the game just because they're used by paid mods. And they certainly aren't going to patch those mods for them. So I'm afraid this is still an issue, paid mods or not.

Understanding what is needed to install more than one mod and how they might interact with each other (or conflict with each other) is obviously necessary. But why do you argue that a person who installs more than a couple of minor mods is held to a higher level of understanding that someone who just wants better item sorting? What is the cutoff level? If they only install a couple of minor mods as you put it, why does the person that installs 3 minor mods need to understand what various acronyms mean? ...snip...

As I said, modders could perhaps make it slightly easier, but... the resources are there, they aren't that hard to find. Do you complain about newspapers (news sites) when they use acronyms to refer to various groups?

What I am talking about is the fact that you can pick any random mod, of any level of complexity, and there is the chance that it is poorly explained or poorly packaged, or when you look at the relevant download section, it is poorly laid out and implemented with confusing labels on the downloads

Yeah, this is where it could be better. But there isn't any standard to follow, and surprise surprise, people are lazy, including some modders. Perhaps they feel that people who use the mods ought to do at least some of the work.

A formal paid-process will eliminate the levels of ambiguity (I would bloody well expect it to anyway)

Yes, it will make it a bit easier to install. And possibly they'll even idiot-proof the process of finding and installing anything it depends on. But it won't solve the underlying problems that you complained about in your previous post - mods will still break if the dev messes with the underlying systems, and mods will still need other mods to work. Unless, of course, they limit themselves to the absolutely simplest mods there are. Such as horse armour, for example.

What exactly is being asked by these checkboxes, and what stops them from checking them regardless?

What 'exactly' is being asked? I don't know. I'm not going to spend the next 3 months sitting down with the modding community, the NexusMods staff, and the average users of the mods to establish what is needed and what is possible. So, I'm sorry, I can't provide you with exactly what is being asked.

However, forcing the mod submitter to run through a checklist about:
...snip...

Are you volunteering for the job of making a standard for submitting mods? Please, go ahead, I will applaud you, I assure you. Somebody needs to do it if it's going to be done, and you are the one with the idea, so...

Nope, you've lost me. How does someone updating their mod after I've started using it, mean that I didn't do my research?

In your example, you had a 'whole lot of construction mods'. I don't need to know which ones you used to have a fair idea that many of them would conflict with each other, and that a change in one could easily bring them all down. That's where you need to do some research.

I'm really sorry that you think I'm attacking Skyrim@NexusMods and their ModManger (how long have you worked for them?).

I neither work for Nexus nor use their mod manager. I didn't take your post as an attack on them, I took it as a general attack on modders. If you've been one yourself, I would have expected you to be a bit more understanding of the issues here.

I'm just pointing out that the people complaining about paid mods are either misunderstanding what the plan is, or are justifying the current hit&miss nature of the free mods that we all enjoy. Paying for a 'bigger' mod will be as painless as DLC (Cue someone linking to broken DLC or Horse Armor) and will work with the main product and it's updates. It won't be the same as NexusMods where you have to solve a logic puzzle to work out if the mod will work with the other mods you have installed based on the submitter's use of language "Dont install dis mod if u dont allready installed uzbys mod to remov wait limitz"

But the thing is, paid mods won't solve any of those problems. Good luck trying to install a couple of big mods that edit the same stuff, whether you paid for them or not. They won't magically play nicely with each other just because you paid for them. If the paid mod marketplace gets anywhere near the number of mods on the Nexus (it won't, but just imagine) it will be a very similar experience, unless Bethesda are going to be a whole lot more hands-on than I expect them to be. And the more mods there are, the less hands on you can expect Bethesda to be - they won't be employing an army of mod-checker-and-fixers.

Where people have spent a lot of time making all the available world items available for use in the Fallout 4 settlement building, well they've done the work, but it was bethesda's assets. So I guess the revenue split is in order?

I've never understood this argument. Bethesda gets paid amply by everybody involved with this. You have to pay for their assets to be able to use them. If mods make the game more popular, Bethesda gets even more money. Bethesda don't have any involvement in the modding process, so why should they get any more money from that than they already do? Seems like double dipping to me.

[Morkonan]

....
I've never understood this argument. Bethesda gets paid amply by everybody involved with this. You have to pay for their assets to be able to use them. If mods make the game more popular, Bethesda gets even more money. Bethesda don't have any involvement in the modding process, so why should they get any more money from that than they already do? Seems like double dipping to me.

This is an easy one, so I'll take it.

When you buy a game, you are not buying the rights to use the assets that are incorporated in that game. You can't, for instance, strip models out of a game, convert them to another format, and then post them on 3D model website as your work. Because... it isn't, is it?

If you bought fifty books, copy-pasted paragraphs in them in order to create an entirely new story, you'd be guilty of copyright infringement no matter how much hard work you did in Microsoft Word.

If you use an asset, even if you're making a new product that includes it, that use does not suddenly free that asset from copyright and trademark claims. It just doesn't work that way. This protects the creators and enables creators to make a living from their hard work while having some recourse if others seek to steal that work and sell it as their own.

It's not about creativity, the hard work modders have to do in order to create something that benefits everyone or artistic expression or anything else like that. It's about theft. It's about stealing.

That being said, many games that allow mods allow modders to tinker with certain assets in order to create fun mods. That's wonderful! But, the more that unlocked assets are abused, ripped, converted, repackaged, etc, the less likely it is that devs are going to be as forthcoming in the future.

There are a good many modding communities that pay very close attention to asset use, not just the assets of the original game, but assets created by talented modders in their own communities. The "TES" modding community as a whole has banded together to do quite a bit of self-policing, taking down mods, where possible, that use assets created by other modders. There have been shakeups there as well as with old games, like Star Wars: Battlefront II mods - There are dedicated modders out there that actively protect their cohorts.

Developers deserve the same protection as modders, don't they?

[Jericho]

A little touchy, aren't we.

No. Well, I'm not. You clearly were.

Hey, the takeaway I got from your entire post was that it was all too hard and you didn't want to put any effort into it, and it was all the fault of those lousy modders, the lazy buggers!

Wow. Just... wow. That is what you took from all the stuff I spewed out?

I thought I was being fairly polite with my response

You weren't.

how about keeping things civil?

I thought I was. Clearly we're not communicating well enough.


The takeaway should have been.

1) Places like NexusMods want to be taken seriously and enter in conversations with Bethesda (or Zenimax), or any other game company, about paying modders a little bit of cash for all their hardwork.

2) But they only do the bare minimum of getting their contributors to try and do things in a formal way that benefits the users (And I guess, why should they? The modders aren't being paid. But NexusMods gets the add revenue, and the modders get their Patreons.)

3) Some modders just want to throw their new mod out there to help people without having to jump through all the hoops of a process. That is commendable. I just threw my 'Fatigue' fix for Morrowind out there back in the day so that your hero could jog more than 11 meters without collapsing into a heap on the floor. But it doesn't really help anyone in the long run, or often the short run, if there are already 50 mods doing the same thing, and they all conflict with different mods in different ways.

4) A paid process that works with the Bethesda development team will prevent mods from breaking with patches and prevent (well, lets be honest, 'reduce') mod-conflicts. This can only ever be a good thing.

5) There will always be the market (i.e. NexusMods) for all the free mods. This new paid scheme will have zero impact on NexusMods. (I expect that the first month, everyone with a HarryPotter wand will submit it and want their $50 per download and get rejected. And when everything settles down a month later, NexusMods will probably get even more traffic thanks to the internet backlash against Bethesda). Anyone who thinks that paid mods are going to have any impact on the free community have never visited NexusMods.

6) Piracy is going to be rampant, which is a real shame for the modders that spent all their time on these projects.



Hey, at least you didn't say "Well if you think NexusMods is so bad, why don't you go and make your own mod-site?", which is the usual internet response to anything that isn't a 10/10 review