Nightmare with tradesman

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Bishop149
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Nightmare with tradesman

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 14:47

Ugggg this is mostly just satisfying my need to rant, so feel free to ignore but might be a good lesson in here for others which I'll put up front.

tl/dr
- Tradesmen are often unprofessional (generous) or crooks (less generous). If you get a bad feeling or red flags go up trust your gut drop them and don't let your desperation to get a job done quickly blind you to their bullcrap.

So tale of woe.

We had a leak in our bathroom, reported by downstairs as water coming through their ceiling. Obviously something needed done sharpish.
So I started looking for someone to come out, first I called a number of companies that seemed to get lots of good reviews online but they were all both a) busy for weeks b) charged HUGE call out fees just to have a look.
So I went on a site called RatedPeople which we have used in the past and generally got some good people through.

The way it works is you post a job and then several people respond and you pick which one you want. I picked this chap over one of the others mainly on the basis of a single factor (all the reviews etc being equal), that being that he WASN'T going to charge a call out fee to simply diagnose the work to be done to fix the leak. All the others were. When he turned up he was here about 10 minutes and then demanded £80 in cash. This REALLY should have red flagged but I needed it fixed so I let it slide.

The following day he then embarked on a "Trace and Access" to find the leak which involved ripping out most of the shower unit. To be fair they did identify the leak and make a temporary fix (to be firmed up as part of the later repair). The cost of this was IMO extortionate, £80/hour each for two people. One of whom spent most of their time standing around doing nothing. I don't earn even a QUARTER of £80/hour for my PhD and 8 years of higher education. They charged for 8 hours labour (I timed it, they were here for 4hrs 10mins including lunch break). . . . bloody nearly £1300. But I was pretty confident that the insurance company would pay for this bit at least so sod it, problem found / not my money.

Then the repair of the ripped out shower . . . . we arranged a date for him to come and quote for this work, I took a day of annual leave to do so at his convenience (again motivated by desire to get it done fast). He said he'd be there first thing. . . . he didn't show in the morning, when it got to about 2pm I rang. Promised he'd be there "before 4". . . . . Finally rocked up after 6pm. Another red flag.

At this point he wanted to go ahead pretty much right away and I got cold feet. The insurance claim hadn't been processed yet and he'd just quoted another £2600 for the repair and wanted 50% up front. If the insurer decided not to cough up we'd be seriously in the hole.
I said to hold and we'd wait on the insurance.
Insurance does agree to the costs (Yay!) so we go ahead, again the cost and other concerns offset by the "someone else is paying" + "We need a bloody shower" factors.

[sigh]

We'd agreed for the work to be done over 3 days (again, some time off work was taken to accommodate). I'll just list the issues.

- Tiles: I sent him our choice of tiles 12 days prior to beginning work. In two days prior to starting the work he asked me to "remind" him what tiles we'd picked no less that THREE times. Literally the day he starts he says he can't get them because they need to be ordered, forced to pick an (inferior) replacement at last minute.

- They were going to leave the "temporary" leak fix in place, despite the fact I'd already paid an extra £200 to replace the pipework (quirk of insurance policy, they will pay for finding the leak and repairing the damage caused but NOT repair of the actual pipe).

- One of the people doing the work was a child, no more than 16. This aside, in common with the previous work it was a case of one person works, the other stands around and watches.

- They never had a vehicle, they turned up on public transport and the boss simply used the van to drop stuff off on the first day. Meaning they couldn't travel to get anything if they forgot a screw or something.

- The first day they just about worked a full day if I'm generous. The second they rocked up at 11.30 and were gone before 16.00. Lunch break of an hour on both days. Pace of work seemed glacial, we had two days of "We'll get most of the tiling done today mate" . . . not a single tile is up.

- The last day they turned up again at about 12:00 and we immediately raised an issue. The shower tray they'd bought was a cheap (literally bottom of the range) £40 plastic job. We explained that the repair was to be like for like and that we'd only decided to replace our old (worn but other wise good) expensive shower tray on their bosses recommendation ("Insurance is paying so why not mate!"). This added to general impression we'd already formed that they were doing things a cheap as was humanly possible. At this point the worker declared that there was no point in him working today (he couldn't go and get another tray, no van) and promptly sodded off saying he'll come back another day. Before he sods off however he asks for more money (£300)! We telling we've already paid his boss 50% so go ask him for any money he feels he's owed. There was LOADS he could of done that didn't involve the base of the shower unit AT ALL.

So now we (finally) get angry, based on what we've seen so far it won't take just one more day and quality of finish will be crap. I emailed this morning and cancelled the remainder of the job, we'll get someone else to finish the remaining 2/3 of the work.
We (stupidly) paid £1300 up front, but they left all the materials in our house so we have those. . . . maybe £400 quids worth, so £800 in the hole which TBH I hope he just takes a F's off, but am worried he might get aggressive, he's already shown a tendency to become more of an A-hole the second you raise any issue with his work. . . . as we learned over the tile issue.

Angry at him / them, but probably more angry at myself all told.

So lessons learned.
- As I said in the tl/dr, trust your damn gut. If someone is repeatedly red flagging on small things drop 'em. I should of done this way WAY earlier.

- Never pay more than about 20% up front (as per Citizens Advice, now I've looked it up).

- Get a fully itemised and costed quotation. What we had was two separate things, an invoice for total cost and an itemised quote of the work to be done (with no prices). This seems, now I think about it, to be an obvious commitment dodge on cost.

- Finally, perhaps controversially, never hire a British person. All the other people we have had over the years have been European and never had any such issues, they've all worked like daemons to get the job done quickly but to a perfectly acceptable standard and were communicative and receptive to feedback throughout.
Last edited by Bishop149 on Mon, 7. Aug 17, 18:05, edited 1 time in total.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

Jericho
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Re: Nightmare with tradesman

Post by Jericho » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 16:47

Bishop149 wrote:Ugggg this is mostly just satisfying my need to rant,
Makes you feel a bit better, so go for it.

I've never had anything that bad, that really sounds like a tale from That's Life or Watchdog (if you're old like me and remember those programs. And British).

Sorry to hear about all the woes.
My sister had a similar issue when they had work done on a house they bought (They lived with my parents while the house was modernised)...

When the gas-people fitted gas into the kitchen, they didn't turn up for nearly 2 weeks... Meanwhile the kitchen was all being fitted. So when they did turn up, they couldn't supply the gas pipework without removing the entire fitted kitchen. So instead they went around the outside of the house, so she had a gas pipe running around 3 walls of the back of the house, and it wasn't even straight, it had various ups and downs with right angles, as if they had several spare bits from other jobs and just used those.

And then the downstairs bathroom was tiled... They had the exact measurements to rebuild the bathroom to and tile it, so the cast iron free-standing bath could go in. When it was all done, me and my brother-in-law carried the bath into the house to fit it (a big cast-iron bath with lion-claw feet weighed about half a ton, or so it felt, and neither of us were small guys...). It didn't fit.

They had built the bathroom to the exact size required, THEN tiled it, so all the measurements were off.

(Oh, and when they relaid the wooden floor that ran from the living room through to the dinning room, they nailed down the copper water pipes using nails of a different type of metal... A couple of years the combined metals had reacted with each other and corroded holes in the copper pipe at all the points that the nails touched. It was only when one leak was in the 'right' place to start leaking upwards that they ripped up the floor to find them all with pinhole leaks.
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pjknibbs
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Re: Nightmare with tradesman

Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 16:48

Bishop149 wrote: - Finally, perhaps controversially, never hire a British person.
Disagree totally with that one. The guys I always go to when I need plumbing work done are Drain Doctor--they have a fixed scale of charges and will tell you up front exactly what the work they're going to do will cost, and the callout is no fee and no obligation. The guy who's come the last couple of times I've called them has been British and has done a bang-up job with no issues whatsoever.

Bishop149
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Re: Nightmare with tradesman

Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 17:51

pjknibbs wrote:Disagree totally with that one. The guys I always go to when I need plumbing work done are Drain Doctor--they have a fixed scale of charges and will tell you up front exactly what the work they're going to do will cost, and the callout is no fee and no obligation. The guy who's come the last couple of times I've called them has been British and has done a bang-up job with no issues whatsoever.
Thanks for the recommendation I'll look them up and for the remainder of the work.

At the risk of derailing the thread.
Well I did say it was a controversial . . . . and is generally based on n=1 for on the British side of the equation (a lot more on the other). But this particular n has left such a poor taste I am generally dissuaded, statistically inept as this might be.

More widely this opinion also factor's in my wife's experience as someone who regularly interviews and hires for another industry (retail). Almost without exception the interview process goes.
Non-British applicant: Tries to convince you they would be good hire, comes fully prepared for interview. Interviewing in 2nd language presents no real problem.
British applicant: Turns up with the entitled attitude that you somehow owe them employment. Obviously hasn't even read the job advert properly. Often also makes it clear that retail is beneath them and they'd be doing you a favour by deigning to take the job.
Every time someone starts the "Bloody immigrants stealing our jobs" argument she always just responds with: "I hire the best qualified candidate* who interviews well. More often than not these criteria do not result in a British person being hired".

*Seriously the number of times she gets:
- "Your CV is a little sparse, what retail experience do you have?"
- "Ummmm, none . . . . you don't really need any experience just to work in a shop do you!?"
Last edited by Bishop149 on Mon, 7. Aug 17, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

Jericho
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Post by Jericho » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 17:56

I always try to go with "a friend of a friend" or recommendation etc. Not always possible.


I recently wanted the taps replaced in my bath, sink, and downstairs loo. Usually I would do that kind of thing myself, but the bath-taps were not the most accessible, and neither were the upstairs sink taps.

But, no problem, my wife's friend's husband is a plumber, and is taking time off with their child so would be happy (and glad of cash-in-hand) for a relatively quick job.


Turns up at my house, and despite me having sent pictures of the pipes, and their measurements, and the details of the new taps I bought, he says "For these sink ones, you'll need reducers" (Or whatever they are called, apparently the connections are different, even when the pipes are the same size. Or something).

So I drive to B&Q while he starts working. So, now I'm stuck in traffic at the roadworks near B&Q, which is RIGHT BY HIS HOUSE. So I have to drive past his house to go to B&Q, and he didn't bother telling me that the 5 minute journey will take 45 minutes if I go the obvious straight line way.

While waiting in traffic I get a call from my wife. Do I have adjustable spanners and wrenches and blah blah other tools, as the plumber HAS FORGOTTEN TO BRING HIS TOOLS.

(Bear in mind, I'm currently sitting outside his house in traffic. If he'd have come with me, he could have popped in to get them while I shuffled forward 2 cars at a time at the roadwork traffic lights).

I do have the tools he need, and luckily he bought the welding stuff.

So I buy the pipe fittings, and go home a different way avoiding the roadworks.

He then spends another 4 hours (5.5 in total) replacing a few taps as they are very old and solid.

So the quick job that should take a couple of hours actually took 5.5 using my tools, and he charges me by the hour.

Un-fudging-believable.
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BigBANGtheory
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Post by BigBANGtheory » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 20:30

no.1 bit of advice I can give is before embarking on a major building project make sure you are insured/covered for legal costs if it goes wrong. Often home insurance policies which provide legal cover exclude this type of cover if so change your policy as this is the one time in your life you may may need to claim it.

2nd bit of advice is specifications, you or an architect need to provide detailed specs on materials to be used otherwise assume the lowest cost and possibly under-spec materials might be used. If you choose not to use an architect then its on you never "trust in the tradesman" to do it for you for a fixed price and in fairness to them they don't know what is in your head or have the same definition of quality.

The problem we do have in the UK is good builders tend to be busy and therefore expensive. If they do not particularly want to do a job they will quote a large sum as a "make it worth my while", because they can. Bad tradesman do jobs that fall outside of building regulations because its then just a quality argument between the two parties.

If you have a disagreement with a builder and tradesman and feel threatened then ask them to leave if they refuse call the police beyond that it down to you to grow a pair of ballz because its really just controlling behavior on show.

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Post by burger1 » Mon, 7. Aug 17, 22:16

- tradespeople never seem to show up. If they don't show up they never call even days later.

-tradespeople charge a lot of money. Replace sprinkler heads $450. Hammer a few nails into a soffit on side of roof $800 (it took him 3 three trips because it kept falling off and he ended up using a screw).


-even if you get a major company they might go through laborers fast, con you legally, do a bad job. It's more of a game of chance.

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Post by Cpt.Jericho » Tue, 8. Aug 17, 00:23

I wonder why you even paid those 80 pounds? You should have sent him back right where he came from. You chose that guy because he said he wanted to have a look at the problem for free. He was charging money and wanted it cash (did he at least give you a receipt? If not, he's not a tradesman but a crook and tax dodger (therefore a thief)).
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Usenko
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Post by Usenko » Tue, 8. Aug 17, 09:59

These situations have been an issue for a long time . . .
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