[TC]Heavy missiles by heavy fighters

[ajime]

I slapped 5 belugas for my wing of 8 Teladi falcon sentinels with the intention to use them as bombers(with 100% fire probability) to incinerate Q's when i jump my Galleon to it and i am just lazy to bring M8's along.

I realized they actually start firing those belugas only when the sheilds of Q no longer exist. Known bug? Doesn't seem to work as normal light missiles like wasp/hurricanes which got spammed early during engagement.

[RAVEN.myst]

That's strange, but I've only used those missiles personally, not by delegated ships, so maybe it's intended behaviour, or maybe it's a bug... The general thing about missiles is that (and especially in X3TC, where hulls of bigger ships are much thinner) they are more effective against hulls than shields, for the most part - maybe that has something to do with this odd behaviour.

Sorry, that my response isn't in the least bit helpful

[Alan Phipps]

If that is by design and not just repeated coincidence, then it sounds as though the belugas are using a similar launch control script to that of marines or boarding pods in X3TC/X3AP (ie only launch when target shields are very low).

I have no idea why that would be so with belugas if this is all in vanilla TC.

[Nanook]

Do you also have guns installed on those fighters? Having 100% fire probablility for the missiles won't preclude them from using those guns, too. If they do have guns, try removing them so the fighters only have missiles and see if that makes a difference.

[Bill Huntington]

Ajime, I'm wondering why you have fighters attacking a Q when you have a Galleon?

I gave up on Fleet commands and do most of my combat with my personal ship. Sometimes I've have a sidekick but not a wingman.

I'll just ask. You get those Falcons to actually do their job? They're helpful rather than helpless? Do they really help kill the target faster than you could do it yourself?

[RAVEN.myst]

I'll just ask. You get those Falcons to actually do their job? They're helpful rather than helpless? Do they really help kill the target faster than you could do it yourself?

I can't speak for Ajime, but I can certainly say that I find it both fun AND effective to use delegated ships - in fact, for long I have conducted very little combat personally, rather directing my minions to do what I want done (in fact, a fun way, for some, to play X3TC is to start as the Argon Patriot, and do ALL the plots without a single personal kill, ie. maintaining "Harmless" fight rank. Sadly, not possible in X3AP as the campaign requires the player to pull the trigger on some kills to advance the plot.) Now, using fighters against frigates may be a little over-ambitious, (I would use a couple of M8s or a small group of corvettes - or a combination of the two, more often, or a corvette or two and a few fighters) but it's certainly a worthy challenge. (Respect to you, Ajime!)

Falcon Haulers (I think that's the ones - the ones with 200MJ shields and not the worst speed, for Teladi ships, anyhow) can be very effective ships. Equip them with EBCs and ample ammo, and they deal good damage at good range and with excellent hit reliability, without running out of stamina. A few hosted on a TM or a bunch of them hosted on a Cormorant shred any enemy fighters and demolish corvettes, heavy corvettes, and carrier frigates.

Using wingmen competently offers the following advantages:
- Progressive, more granular scalability of one's forces (ie. one's power can be increased more smoothly, in smaller and cheaper increments) [You should see what can be achieved with a TM loaded with a wing of Solanos, especially if they are armed with mass drivers!] It takes a lot less money to go to a TM with a couple of Solanos (for example) than it does to go to a Centaur or, even more so, a Skiron - sure, you won't be doing the damage of a Centaur with that (though with 1 or 2 more fighters you will be squashing Centaurs), but the point is that you can start increasing force projection earlier, without having to sit on savings for as long - you get to start expanding your arsenal more immediately.
- Multi-vector attack capability: the ability to swarm enemies with smaller yet still potent units (I'd rather be hitting a target with 16 PACs than 8 HEPTs - and I can be bringing 24 PACs to bear on a target for less cost than a proper 8-HEPT implementation) This point should answer your question about whether the wingman approach really kills a target quicker - if executed correctly, definitely. I'd rather be flying a TM with 2 to 4 M3s or M4+s than a corvette, even a heavy corvette, any day.
- The ability to field a more diverse and therefore more versatile force (example at end of post), which allows you to deal more specifically, naturally, and effectively with a wider variety of situations.

Of course, using wingmen does come with certain challenges:
- Learning the wing's limitations - to not bite off more than you can chew.
- Learning to direct the units responsively in combat, in order to look after them. There's rather less margin for error than being in the "single big ship", as in the latter case, you only have one thing to look after, it's tougher, and so you can make a break for it if you decide things are looking dicey. With several, more fragile units, you have to be more careful, play it safer until you figure out your wing's capabilities.
Both of these relate to the "helpful or helpless" question - avoiding or managing attrition takes practice, honing of skills. I've played X games for well over a decade, and for about the first half of that time I played mostly in the "I'm in the biggest ship I can get" way - but for at least the latter half of that time I've preferred to command more diverse, numerous forces. This didn't happen overnight, though, it took some getting used to, learning the balance, how to not be sending my minions to their doom.

There are only two hotkey commands for wingmen, but they cover a lot of situations (even the majority, with a little care/planning) - being quick on the command console takes care of the rest, and is important for proper control of dispersed assets.

EXAMPLE to try put it in perspective:
Let's say you were to opt for a Skiron - very powerful M6+ with good speed, a capable vessel (one of my favourites, in fact.) This would set you back about 20 million to buy and equip.
However, you could instead get a Zephyrus (almost as fast) much earlier and fully equip it for about 2 million, if I recall correctly. You also get much more cargo space to carry ammo, drones, jump fuel, and various sundries. You can then add fighters to it one by one, as you are able to afford them, growing your hitting power. If you are doing missions, then early on when your fight rank is still low, your fighters quickly eat any pesky M5s and M4s you face without you having to personally chase them around the sky. M3s fall just as quickly, and so do M6s once you have a full wing of fighters. You can either sit inside your Zephyrus and leave the heavy lifting to your minions, or join then by hopping into one of the fighters (probably your strongest, best equipped one) and having the TM either back you up or hang back.
At some point, you can then add a Gladiator, or other M8 of your choice, which you can use to murder larger targets quickly. All this will cost you the same or less in total, but keeps you more active from the start.

What approach works best for you (and, more importantly, you find more satisfying) will of course depend on how you prefer to spend your time: if you want to be the one pulling the trigger on foe-deaths, then personally flying a power ship is probably the way for you (though remember, there's nothing to stop you flying one of your fighters yourself.) Either way, though, you will be kept busy, whether jinking and rolling yourself, or maneuvering your "mobile home" for best effect while keeping an eye on your minions and making sure they are focusing their fire where you want them to, and looking after their well-being.

Happy hunting!

[jlehtone]

Comfort zone. That is what I, and apparently Bill too, have.
One Man, One Ship, One Hell.
Like the Paranid captains that phase shockwaves all around, we deliver death to everything around us. Personally. It is trivial. Simple. Life and death without worries. We are not Mostly Harmless.

Although it took a while, racking personal kills to max is one of my first game goals. Now achieved, I've started to use more ships. Not a fleet. Not yet.

I keep bossing each of my ships. Imploring each Viper to crawl from its cave. Commanding them to spit their venom, one by one. Panicking, whenever anything red slips within 30 klicks of my ships. Finding myself in epicenter of pointy singularity, while busy micromanaging the other ships. Low risk, high workload. I have practically no fighters at all. Freighters and bigger ships.


Setting up a fleet that acts on its own is an interesting challenge. I had fighter wings in X3R, particularly after Bonuspack introduced Group Management Commands and Hotkeys. X3TC, while adding Missile Barrages, lacked in comparison. Why have a M7M launch 16 torpedoes when you could have had 160 Falcons, all fire one torpedo on single button-press ... (and kill framerate instantly).

Tailored fighter groups of five members: leader, two protectors of the leader, and two attacking target of the leader. The group leaders received "Group"/"Wing" commands.

As said, I haven't ventured into X3AP fleets yet. X3TC ... was dashed in the comfort zone.

What is certain is that the "Wingman" option is not part of fleets. You are much better of alone, or alone watching your fleets in action. You definitely do not want ships that by nature of the "Wingman" feature will deliver their Mass Driver ammo to your target through your personal ship.



Belugas .. no factual idea. However, if true it would require two things:

1. That missile properties include a flag for Boarding Pod-like missiles
2. That attack routines consider that flag

Seems unlikely.

I don't recall staring at X3TC/AP attack routines. X3R routines had two "interesting" details:

1. A ship that had no guns installed never attacked anything, whether it had missiles or not. TC/AP's missile boats have hopefully removed that requirement.
2. When attack routine did decide to launch a missile, it did call "select best missile type" game function. (Current target affects result.) Even those should depend on the tabulated missile properties.

Anyway, in X3R:
IF ship decides that it can "attack"
THEN it will roll d100
IF roll is under missile probability
THEN launch missile
ELSE fire front guns*

"Can attack"? Target in front, not too far nor near? Makes no sense with missiles. The NPC, at least on X3AP, do launch missiles from healthy distance.

M1/M2 has no front guns. They will fire no less with 100%.

[RAVEN.myst]

Comfort zone

Heheheh

all fire one torpedo on single button-press ... (and kill framerate instantly).

HAHAHAH! Indeed...

What is certain is that the "Wingman" option is not part of fleets. You are much better of alone, or alone watching your fleets in action. You definitely do not want ships that by nature of the "Wingman" feature will deliver their Mass Driver ammo to your target through your personal ship.

Au contraire, I use wingmen extensively, and effectively, without friendly fire incidents such as you describe, or other examples of AIdiocy occasionally described by others - perhaps it's just a matter of practice, I don't know. To me, my wingmen are an extension of me, rather than a separate entity - so in a sense, they are indeed not truly a part of the "fleet" per se. Also, specialist ships such as M8s aren't ever wingmen - that WOULD be asking for trouble!

However, I don't use wings (the multicoloured ones, you know) very often, only for some specialised and homogeneous groups (either fighters hosted at a carrier that I'm not flying and therefore aren't my wingmen, or occasionally groups of corvettes) - my problem with (these technicolor) wings is how they are abstracted, with access to individuals being made very laborious, so even something as trivial as effecting repairs to a few of them becomes a major PitA - I prefer to organise my ships in groups instead, much as you describe (the specifics may differ, but the general principles hold.)

[jlehtone]

perhaps it's just a matter of practice, I don't know.

Probably. And the ships you fly (which is part of "the practice").

I did end up in M6 Dragon in X2.
First thought after starting X3R: "I want a Dragon."*
First thought after starting X3TC: "I want a Dragon."
First thought after starting X3AP: "I want a Dragon."
Narrow zone.


Pixie wings. IIRC, I had some in X3TC, but right after X3R Group Management script they were a downgrade.


*In the unavoidable clash of expectations and reality ... the reality is still MIA.

[RAVEN.myst]

perhaps it's just a matter of practice, I don't know.

Probably. And the ships you fly (which is part of "the practice").

I did end up in M6 Dragon in X2.
First thought after starting X3R: "I want a Dragon."*
First thought after starting X3TC: "I want a Dragon."
First thought after starting X3AP: "I want a Dragon."

Yes, very true - some ships are better suited as "representatives" than others - I try to go for the best shields I can get when possible, makes that "keeping 'em alive" bit a little easier (though when I play Split I go with speed and numbers, and accept that I may have some attrition - Panther full of Mambas is a hard hitter, but the Mambas themselves are sometimes the "ammo" Scorpions do OK too, especially if "expendable" and "cannon fodder" are key words... ) I once had a wing of Dragons (Split is the race I play the least, by far - I always only use the ships of the race I'm playing, which gives me broad exposure to different ships and how they handle in just about every match-up combination), and they were brutal - rather like very very heavy fighters rather than corvettes. Very very effective...

[ajime]

Do you also have guns installed on those fighters? Having 100% fire probablility for the missiles won't preclude them from using those guns, too. If they do have guns, try removing them so the fighters only have missiles and see if that makes a difference.

I tried unassign the weapons and sent it to my target practice Q in both cases(with guns and without guns) with missile assigned(in advace weapons(g)). i think the issue is for belugas it needs missile to be assigned on the missile bays unlike the rest of my usual m4 Xenon M fighter wings. I never even bothered assigning them and they spammed when the get in combat range.

Falcon Haulers (I think that's the ones - the ones with 200MJ shields and not the worst speed, for Teladi ships, anyhow) can be very effective ships. Equip them with EBCs and ample ammo, and they deal good damage at good range and with excellent hit reliability, without running out of stamina. A few hosted on a TM or a bunch of them hosted on a Cormorant shred any enemy fighters and demolish corvettes, heavy corvettes, and carrier frigates.

Yes, very true - some ships are better suited as "representatives" than others - I try to go for the best shields I can get when possible, makes that "keeping 'em alive" bit a little easier (though when I play Split I go with speed and numbers, and accept that I may have some attrition - Panther full of Mambas is a hard hitter, but the Mambas themselves are sometimes the "ammo" Very Happy Scorpions do OK too, especially if "expendable" and "cannon fodder" are key words... Razz ) I once had a wing of Dragons (Split is the race I play the least, by far - I always only use the ships of the race I'm playing, which gives me broad exposure to different ships and how they handle in just about every match-up combination), and they were brutal - rather like very very heavy fighters rather than corvettes. Very very effective...

Falcon sentinels are more OP with 2 200 MJ albeit slow and the ship isn't buyable in TC. I produced them through HQ.

Setting up a fleet that acts on its own is an interesting challenge. I had fighter wings in X3R, particularly after Bonuspack introduced Group Management Commands and Hotkeys. X3TC, while adding Missile Barrages, lacked in comparison. Why have a M7M launch 16 torpedoes when you could have had 160 Falcons, all fire one torpedo on single button-press ... (and kill framerate instantly).

oh god thisss is what i want for profitsss.

Ajime, I'm wondering why you have fighters attacking a Q when you have a Galleon?

I'll just ask. You get those Falcons to actually do their job? They're helpful rather than helpless? Do they really help kill the target faster than you could do it yourself?

its the adrenalin of RNG of making a bet seeing how many of your fighters/bombers survive afterwards. I'm starting to enjoy the perks of carrier despite its weakness and trying to figure out a good setup against its rather weak generators. Yeah i slapped HEPT on majority of banks on a galleon. I just love seeing the green shots but really hate their misses. PAC doesn't miss so much but rather short in range. ah.. choices choices..

I gave up on Fleet commands and do most of my combat with my personal ship. Sometimes I've have a sidekick but not a wingman.

I never even used the wingman commands. . I only used the wings and slap 30+ mambas on my hoshi. i kept changing their loadouts to see how they fare in battles. I kind of like my current setup of 6 EBC + 2 pulse beam on them at the moment. I had 2 PAC + 2 PBE on my Xenon M wings too.
most of the time i sent them on an equal number or slightly greater enemy number[/quote]

[RAVEN.myst]

i think the issue is for belugas it needs missile to be assigned on the missile bays unlike the rest of my usual m4 Xenon M fighter wings.]

Ah, yes. I didn't think about this, as I do it as a matter of course, learned from the fact that M8 will auto-load the wrong missile (Mosquito instead of Tommie) and M7M will load FBM instead of HHT unless specified (with those two ships, this also results in the wrong missile being preselected for the missile barrage command.)

[Nanook]

Do you also have guns installed on those fighters? Having 100% fire probablility for the missiles won't preclude them from using those guns, too. If they do have guns, try removing them so the fighters only have missiles and see if that makes a difference.

I tried unassign the weapons and sent it to my target practice Q in both cases(with guns and without guns) with missile assigned(in advace weapons(g)). i think the issue is for belugas it needs missile to be assigned on the missile bays unlike the rest of my usual m4 Xenon M fighter wings. I never even bothered assigning them and they spammed when the get in combat range....

They may still be subject to a Xenon control script. Native Xenon do indeed seem to spam a lot of missies until they run out. I think it's to make up for the short range of their normal laser, the PBE. I could be just imagining this though.

[jlehtone]

When you buy a ship, its missile firing probability is set to 5%. When I assembled a fleet from claimed Xenon fighters in X3R, I did notice that some of them had probability set to 100%. Unexpected spams, before I did pay attention to the numbers.

The attack scripts might modify the probability in some conditions.

Yes, there can be only one missile type installed. What (if any) gets auto-installed might depend on the order you load the ships.


We know that

• game has tables of gun and missile properties
• game has routine to select "optimal" gun. Simply approach Xenon K and observe what it tosses at you as you get closer.
• game has routine to select "optimal" missile. That may or might not take into account what has been installed in the ship, but is obviously limited to contents of the cargobay

The routine to select "optimal" either relies on the data table, or has additional hardcoded exceptions. The latter is nasty. Bad for modding.

I don't see in the X3TC's table any field that would make Beluga special.

[Timsup2nothin]

Do you also have guns installed on those fighters? Having 100% fire probablility for the missiles won't preclude them from using those guns, too. If they do have guns, try removing them so the fighters only have missiles and see if that makes a difference.

I tried unassign the weapons and sent it to my target practice Q in both cases(with guns and without guns) with missile assigned(in advace weapons(g)). i think the issue is for belugas it needs missile to be assigned on the missile bays unlike the rest of my usual m4 Xenon M fighter wings. I never even bothered assigning them and they spammed when the get in combat range....

They may still be subject to a Xenon control script. Native Xenon do indeed seem to spam a lot of missies until they run out. I think it's to make up for the short range of their normal laser, the PBE. I could be just imagining this though.

I was imagining that it compliments the PBE's effectiveness for blowing off shields but somewhat lesser ability to damage the hull. Fire some missiles, then PBE the shields off the target while they home in is a devastating tactic. I do it all the time. As a bonus the target's turrets have to choose between missile defense and shooting at me.