No Mini Games please

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Cabrelbeuk
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Post by Cabrelbeuk » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 12:06

If done right. As said, mini-games in Rebirth were boring.

It is actually a tough thing to design as :
-it needs to remain simple, but not too much and especially not to repetitive (otherwise it is boring).
-it needs to not be too present. It is a mini-game, not a core feature. Is not a thing that player will look for, but something to make some task more interesting.
-it needs to be correctly inserted into game. Not breaking the immersion. A mini-game during a discussion doesn't make any sense (Only QTE does, but it works only on plotted discussion and have to get a logical impact (stop the conversation, make an action, etc which make the situation evolve)).

A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.


Anyway, now i would like first the mains cores features to work fines than seeing those kind of things added badly.
You can add it in a DLC once the core game is settled (as Ego doesn't have the resources to add it in the vanilla game).
Sorry for my english :roll:

ZaphodBeeblebrox
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 13:29

If I recall correctly there will still be some kind of hacking available in X4.

Hacking from my viewpoint will need some kind of mini-game.

Now hacking may require some level of skill (the more you hack the more skillful you become.) There may be different levels of hacking target that require you to acquire better skills, tools, hardware and software to be able to perform the hack.

So if hacking is anything like Rebirth, then station production, station storage,
station defences could all be potential hacking targets.

The hacking of ships might be something similar, disabling engines, weapons, shields, communications or ship storage.

So it might be more interesting if you could pick a target for a hack. So on a ship, disable the communications and then the engines. So that you have a ship unable to communicate or move ready for boarding say.
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Slashman
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Post by Slashman » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 14:46

Some examples of mini-games that I think fit well into the games they were designed for are the Detective Mode crime scene investigations in the Arkham Games as well as the ones involving reviewing camera footage for evidence.

I think the once I liked best though were the mingames involving the tricorder in Star Trek Elite Force 2. They REALLY fit the theme of the game and integrated with it in a natural way. I have yet to see similar min-games since in other games.
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lyubarskiy
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Post by lyubarskiy » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 21:04

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:If I recall correctly there will still be some kind of hacking available in X4.

Hacking from my viewpoint will need some kind of mini-game.

Now hacking may require some level of skill (the more you hack the more skillful you become.) There may be different levels of hacking target that require you to acquire better skills, tools, hardware and software to be able to perform the hack.

So if hacking is anything like Rebirth, then station production, station storage,
station defences could all be potential hacking targets.

The hacking of ships might be something similar, disabling engines, weapons, shields, communications or ship storage.

So it might be more interesting if you could pick a target for a hack. So on a ship, disable the communications and then the engines. So that you have a ship unable to communicate or move ready for boarding say.
Problem with hacking mini games is that if you are forced to do it every time it's get annoying and tedious. No matter how much fun they are at the start. This is especially true in an an open ended sandbox game such as X4 series where you could spend thousands of hours. I would rather spend my time building fleets and controlling retrospect than playing the same mini game over and over.

Nanook
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Post by Nanook » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 21:41

Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
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Slashman
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Post by Slashman » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 21:52

Nanook wrote:
Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
That is a rather blind blanket statement that does not hold true. I just gave two examples of games where they fit perfectly into the both the lore and gameplay very well.

While I agree that if you are just inserting them for the sake of it, it is better to have none, if they integrate and fit well with the theme of the game and gameplay, they are just fine. Their purpose and execution should justify their existence.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

Greenhorn
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Post by Greenhorn » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 21:52

I agree with, nanook 100%.i want other things too do, to make money.Immersions please.bye all.
Running latest Steam X3: Albion Prelude .v 3.1 + bonus pack.favorite single music coldplay ,something just like this.

Nanook
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Post by Nanook » Wed, 14. Feb 18, 21:56

Slashman wrote:
Nanook wrote:
Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
That is a rather blind blanket statement that does not hold true. I just gave two examples of games where they fit perfectly into the both the lore and gameplay very well.....
You gave examples of how they fit into an adventure-style game, not a strategic/simulation style of game. What's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for the gander. :wink: Let me clarify. IMO, mini-games should never be a part of the core gameplay of any X game. Better? :P

If you don't believe me, just look at the most popular mods for Rebirth. The vast majority were ones that allowed the player to bypass those repetitive and boring minigames. If you liked Rebirth's minigames, I have to assume you also liked the repetitive and boring equipping of masses of fighters in the X3 games. :wink:
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Jeraal
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Post by Jeraal » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 00:09

Nanook wrote:... If you liked Rebirth's minigames, I have to assume you also liked the repetitive and boring equipping of masses of fighters in the X3 games. :wink:
Who didn't? I couldn't wait to buy a new carrier JUST so I could outfit the fighters!

Seriously though, I hate required mini games. Optional, fine. If I feel like doing them I can. If not, I don't. I believe my hatred of them started with FF9. If memory serves, there was a point where you had to play that d##n card game and win a certain number of hands to progress.
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Slashman
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Post by Slashman » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 15:00

Nanook wrote:
Slashman wrote:
Nanook wrote:
Cabrelbeuk wrote:...
A good example of a correct mini game that could have been inserted in Rebirth would have been a short (doesn't mean easy !!!!!!!!!) puzzle game during hacking missions.....
Only if it's an optional way to complete the task. Mini-games should never, I repeat NEVER, be a part of the core gameplay. They should only be something that the player might like to do, not something the player is forced to do. And that's where Rebirth went so wrong.
That is a rather blind blanket statement that does not hold true. I just gave two examples of games where they fit perfectly into the both the lore and gameplay very well.....
You gave examples of how they fit into an adventure-style game, not a strategic/simulation style of game. What's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for the gander. :wink: Let me clarify. IMO, mini-games should never be a part of the core gameplay of any X game. Better? :P

If you don't believe me, just look at the most popular mods for Rebirth. The vast majority were ones that allowed the player to bypass those repetitive and boring minigames. If you liked Rebirth's minigames, I have to assume you also liked the repetitive and boring equipping of masses of fighters in the X3 games. :wink:
Putting words in my mouth does not make your point any more valid (I never claimed to like Rebirth's minigames in any form or fashion). There is no rule book for what should be in an X game.

Egosoft made a bunch of crappy minigames for Rebirth. That has no bearing on minigames as a whole being bad or good for X games.

And what difference does it make what the genre is if the minigame in question fits with the gameplay/lore. Zero difference.

And DUH mods were made to bypass the bad minigames. What a shock!

Now if your argument was "Egosoft can't make minigames worth crap and so they should not include them in X games", I would be more accepting, but blanket statements to the effect that including any minigame in X games is bad makes no sense.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 16:38

I'm with Nanook on this one, don't force people to have to do a mini-game as part of the the basic game-play. If people are required to populate ships and stations then I need a nice easy way to get good quality staff. (Something that is not so easy in real life.)

Given the size of the empires that I build, I am going to be repeating this over and over again. So please don't force me to do a tedious operation 100's / 1000's of times.

I previously mentioned hacking. This is to my mind an optional extra. So I may only want to do it on occasion. To give me the sense that I am actually breaking the law, having some kind of mini-skill game that has a chance of failure, helps to do this. If a fail then I get chased off by the local law enforcement, lose reputation etc, etc.
It was a woman who drove me to drink... you know I never went back and thanked her.

Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.

Slashman
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Post by Slashman » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 21:41

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:
I previously mentioned hacking. This is to my mind an optional extra. So I may only want to do it on occasion. To give me the sense that I am actually breaking the law, having some kind of mini-skill game that has a chance of failure, helps to do this. If a fail then I get chased off by the local law enforcement, lose reputation etc, etc.
This is the entire point here. Where appropriate and related to something that makes sense from a gameplay POV.
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GCU Grey Area
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Post by GCU Grey Area » Fri, 16. Feb 18, 00:27

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:I previously mentioned hacking. This is to my mind an optional extra. So I may only want to do it on occasion. To give me the sense that I am actually breaking the law, having some kind of mini-skill game that has a chance of failure, helps to do this. If a fail then I get chased off by the local law enforcement, lose reputation etc, etc.
Agree with that. Do quite enjoy that sort of stuff, e.g. scanning shielded production modules. Dodging around police patrols in an illegal drone, knowing that a failed hack has consequences, hoping I hid the Skunk well enough in case everything goes wrong, etc. May be only a minor part of playing XR & don't do it all that often, but my enjoyment of the game would certainly have been diminished if it wasn't there. Hope there will be an equivalent in X4.

Seanchaidh
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Post by Seanchaidh » Fri, 16. Feb 18, 19:03

The conversation mini-game in X rebirth wasn't something I enjoyed, but what makes it really annoying is that you can't get around doing it a lot without a mod or without accepting some pretty dismal personnel. Really, I'm the richest person in the universe but I can't hire a capable human resources department?

Since the game features economy, trade, and so on, if there is any pretense whatsoever to suggest that the player should be able to buy their way through a mini-game, allow the player to buy their way through. Hacking? Expensive automated hacker chips. Finding good people? Bribery for information.

Especially when it's something like getting good personnel, which you have to do more and more and more often as you progress, there needs to be a way to pay out the nose to have it done fast and easy.

Nanook
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Post by Nanook » Fri, 16. Feb 18, 22:17

Slashman wrote:...
Now if your argument was "Egosoft can't make minigames worth crap and so they should not include them in X games", I would be more accepting, but blanket statements to the effect that including any minigame in X games is bad makes no sense.
I guess I'm not making myself clear on this. The basic problem with required minigames in the X games is that, sooner or later, they become tedious a boring due to massive repetition. X games, unlike most games that successfully incorporate minigames, are very long-winded affairs. Hence, you do not want some required gameplay to become tedious and boring. And that's exactly what happens with virtually all unavoidable minigames in every X game. My comparison with outfitting fighters was NOT putting words into your mouth, but making the point that it's equivalent to having required minigames in X4.

Oh, and you're the one putting words in my mouth. I never said, or even implied, that there should be no minigames in the X games. What I said is that they should all be optional ways to do things, not a requred gameplay element. :roll:
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
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