No Mini Games please

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ZaphodBeeblebrox
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 15:38

I'm with Nanook on this one, don't force people to have to do a mini-game as part of the the basic game-play. If people are required to populate ships and stations then I need a nice easy way to get good quality staff. (Something that is not so easy in real life.)

Given the size of the empires that I build, I am going to be repeating this over and over again. So please don't force me to do a tedious operation 100's / 1000's of times.

I previously mentioned hacking. This is to my mind an optional extra. So I may only want to do it on occasion. To give me the sense that I am actually breaking the law, having some kind of mini-skill game that has a chance of failure, helps to do this. If a fail then I get chased off by the local law enforcement, lose reputation etc, etc.
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Post by Slashman » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 20:41

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:
I previously mentioned hacking. This is to my mind an optional extra. So I may only want to do it on occasion. To give me the sense that I am actually breaking the law, having some kind of mini-skill game that has a chance of failure, helps to do this. If a fail then I get chased off by the local law enforcement, lose reputation etc, etc.
This is the entire point here. Where appropriate and related to something that makes sense from a gameplay POV.
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Post by GCU Grey Area » Thu, 15. Feb 18, 23:27

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:I previously mentioned hacking. This is to my mind an optional extra. So I may only want to do it on occasion. To give me the sense that I am actually breaking the law, having some kind of mini-skill game that has a chance of failure, helps to do this. If a fail then I get chased off by the local law enforcement, lose reputation etc, etc.
Agree with that. Do quite enjoy that sort of stuff, e.g. scanning shielded production modules. Dodging around police patrols in an illegal drone, knowing that a failed hack has consequences, hoping I hid the Skunk well enough in case everything goes wrong, etc. May be only a minor part of playing XR & don't do it all that often, but my enjoyment of the game would certainly have been diminished if it wasn't there. Hope there will be an equivalent in X4.

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Post by Seanchaidh » Fri, 16. Feb 18, 18:03

The conversation mini-game in X rebirth wasn't something I enjoyed, but what makes it really annoying is that you can't get around doing it a lot without a mod or without accepting some pretty dismal personnel. Really, I'm the richest person in the universe but I can't hire a capable human resources department?

Since the game features economy, trade, and so on, if there is any pretense whatsoever to suggest that the player should be able to buy their way through a mini-game, allow the player to buy their way through. Hacking? Expensive automated hacker chips. Finding good people? Bribery for information.

Especially when it's something like getting good personnel, which you have to do more and more and more often as you progress, there needs to be a way to pay out the nose to have it done fast and easy.

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Post by Nanook » Fri, 16. Feb 18, 21:17

Slashman wrote:...
Now if your argument was "Egosoft can't make minigames worth crap and so they should not include them in X games", I would be more accepting, but blanket statements to the effect that including any minigame in X games is bad makes no sense.
I guess I'm not making myself clear on this. The basic problem with required minigames in the X games is that, sooner or later, they become tedious a boring due to massive repetition. X games, unlike most games that successfully incorporate minigames, are very long-winded affairs. Hence, you do not want some required gameplay to become tedious and boring. And that's exactly what happens with virtually all unavoidable minigames in every X game. My comparison with outfitting fighters was NOT putting words into your mouth, but making the point that it's equivalent to having required minigames in X4.

Oh, and you're the one putting words in my mouth. I never said, or even implied, that there should be no minigames in the X games. What I said is that they should all be optional ways to do things, not a requred gameplay element. :roll:
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Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Mon, 19. Feb 18, 13:27

First thing I did when XR was all patched up and mostly bug-free was go and use the mod to remove highways and instead opted for the boost mod with inertia flight and ADS.

hated the highways don't know why they existed but the whole thing was better when ship convos had to travel the space manually like in X3. Actually to be honest I hardly played XR the lack of ship choices made me lose interest real fast as long as the un-fleshed out station NPCs and trading.

I just used mods to remove all of that so you never to listen to an NPC again or get out of the ship for anything.


Don't get me wrong it could have been great and I hope it is done right in X4 and fleshed out feature, not just a time waster. Actually, who am I kidding, I regret buying XR before the reviews I trusted egosoft to make a good game and instead it felt more like an early tech demo of what X4 looks to be shaping up to be. Modded X3:AP, you throw in LU and Mayhem into that and you have the best x4 space game available today, the only missing feature being cockpits and crew and some love too the gfx engine.

Otherwise still one of the more enjoyable ones scale wise, I just really hope they don't bamboozle us twice, I think XR is going to hurt pre-sales though many fans jumped the wagon early and got roasted myself included.

I saw the live stream and the system they are using to replace SETA is great, we don't need high-ways you know somebody is going to mod that right out as soon as they find out how and make the AI travel space properly again.
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MPX10L
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Post by MPX10L » Fri, 23. Feb 18, 23:20

Just a few thoughts:
I know station scanning was supposed to have the purpose of bringing the player closer to the stations so that you could admire the view and the feeling of being in a space city. This is something I think is a good idea ... But I don't like to play this way. I absolutely love flying close to stations. But when I do, the afterburner is at full throttle and I try to fly through the smallest gaps possible.
If this would generate some kind of stunt points that would alter your character description to say that I am a reckless race pilot ... This would be a mini game I would like.
But not because I want to do the Minigame, but because the universe would react on me while doing what I love. :)

Something different: I don't know why so many people don't like the highways. Freelancer had basically the same thing! And they were awesome in freelancer. Some were under construction in the middle of nowhere. Pirates could pull you out. Next to them there were so many things to discover!
I like the concept of highways. They have to be improved though. :)

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Post by Geek » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 13:03

Highways and FL tradelanes are very different.
Tradelanes work both ways and you do not have to play a dodge minigame inside.
They are also not the only travel method ; lots of FL systems do not have any tradelane.
Right on commander !

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Post by MPX10L » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 13:15

Thats why I said that they have to be improved. I know the differences. At the root they are the same concept. Also this dodge mini game is long gone in XR. I use the highways pretty much like the tradelanes. Get in - wait or use the menu - get out.
"not only travel method" - FL had this travel drive ... but XR has this too. Just not for the small ships. But you can fly the big ships in X4, so this will be interesting.

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Post by Geek » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 13:19

adrianstroschke wrote:Also this dodge mini game is long gone in XR. I use the highways pretty much like the tradelanes.
unless you are using mods, nope.
Right on commander !

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Post by MPX10L » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 13:23

I don't use mods. Yes, sometimes you bump into someone but it's really like ... well yeah whatever.

lyubarskiy
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Post by lyubarskiy » Tue, 27. Feb 18, 21:23

Nanook wrote:
Slashman wrote:...
Now if your argument was "Egosoft can't make minigames worth crap and so they should not include them in X games", I would be more accepting, but blanket statements to the effect that including any minigame in X games is bad makes no sense.
I guess I'm not making myself clear on this. The basic problem with required minigames in the X games is that, sooner or later, they become tedious a boring due to massive repetition. X games, unlike most games that successfully incorporate minigames, are very long-winded affairs. Hence, you do not want some required gameplay to become tedious and boring. And that's exactly what happens with virtually all unavoidable minigames in every X game. My comparison with outfitting fighters was NOT putting words into your mouth, but making the point that it's equivalent to having required minigames in X4.

Oh, and you're the one putting words in my mouth. I never said, or even implied, that there should be no minigames in the X games. What I said is that they should all be optional ways to do things, not a requred gameplay element. :roll:
Precisely what I thought. I always think of lock picking and terminal hacking in Fallout. At first it's fun, then it's what ever, then "please make them stop". Best mods were, an arrow pointing to the correct unlock position and automatic statistics based hack based on your science level for terminals. Didn't take anything away from the game but made it that much more enjoyable.

In X games is amplified to 1000. I don't want to fly 2 feet behind a car in the highway to go faster. i don't want to sniff a station up close to unveil it's point's of interest (commodity).

I want to build armies, engage in Waring universe with live economy and grand scale. If I want to know a price of a ware I want to be able to get into a sector and transmit it to my system, because it makes sense for the game and the fact that it should be doable 1000 years in the future if available now. If I want to always know the price of a ware I can buy a satellite. Etc. Don't force me to do petty things because you think it will provide more game play value.

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Post by lyubarskiy » Tue, 27. Feb 18, 21:28

ledhead900 wrote:First thing I did when XR was all patched up and mostly bug-free was go and use the mod to remove highways and instead opted for the boost mod with inertia flight and ADS.

hated the highways don't know why they existed but the whole thing was better when ship convos had to travel the space manually like in X3. Actually to be honest I hardly played XR the lack of ship choices made me lose interest real fast as long as the un-fleshed out station NPCs and trading.

I just used mods to remove all of that so you never to listen to an NPC again or get out of the ship for anything.


Don't get me wrong it could have been great and I hope it is done right in X4 and fleshed out feature, not just a time waster. Actually, who am I kidding, I regret buying XR before the reviews I trusted egosoft to make a good game and instead it felt more like an early tech demo of what X4 looks to be shaping up to be. Modded X3:AP, you throw in LU and Mayhem into that and you have the best x4 space game available today, the only missing feature being cockpits and crew and some love too the gfx engine.

Otherwise still one of the more enjoyable ones scale wise, I just really hope they don't bamboozle us twice, I think XR is going to hurt pre-sales though many fans jumped the wagon early and got roasted myself included.

I saw the live stream and the system they are using to replace SETA is great, we don't need high-ways you know somebody is going to mod that right out as soon as they find out how and make the AI travel space properly again.
Only reason I stopped playing LU and Mayhem was fleet management and large scale battles. My ships never shot where I wanted them to shoot, what I wanted them to shoot or move where I wanted them to move.

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Post by lyubarskiy » Tue, 27. Feb 18, 21:31

adrianstroschke wrote: so many people don't like the highways. Freelancer had basically the same thing! And they were awesome in freelancer. Some were under construction in the middle of nowhere. Pirates could pull you out. Next to them there were so many things to discover!
I like the concept of highways. They have to be improved though. :)
You just answered your own question. Freelancer made sense and they were fun. They had a purpose and game play that fit well. XR did NOT.

I loved the gates in freelancer. I remember jumping out mid way, destroying a ring and pirating the hell out of transports. Same year I discovered X3. Best gaming year of my life.

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Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Wed, 28. Feb 18, 09:27

lyubarskiy wrote:
ledhead900 wrote:First thing I did when XR was all patched up and mostly bug-free was go and use the mod to remove highways and instead opted for the boost mod with inertia flight and ADS.

hated the highways don't know why they existed but the whole thing was better when ship convos had to travel the space manually like in X3. Actually to be honest I hardly played XR the lack of ship choices made me lose interest real fast as long as the un-fleshed out station NPCs and trading.

I just used mods to remove all of that so you never to listen to an NPC again or get out of the ship for anything.


Don't get me wrong it could have been great and I hope it is done right in X4 and fleshed out feature, not just a time waster. Actually, who am I kidding, I regret buying XR before the reviews I trusted egosoft to make a good game and instead it felt more like an early tech demo of what X4 looks to be shaping up to be. Modded X3:AP, you throw in LU and Mayhem into that and you have the best x4 space game available today, the only missing feature being cockpits and crew and some love too the gfx engine.

Otherwise still one of the more enjoyable ones scale wise, I just really hope they don't bamboozle us twice, I think XR is going to hurt pre-sales though many fans jumped the wagon early and got roasted myself included.

I saw the live stream and the system they are using to replace SETA is great, we don't need high-ways you know somebody is going to mod that right out as soon as they find out how and make the AI travel space properly again.
Only reason I stopped playing LU and Mayhem was fleet management and large scale battles. My ships never shot where I wanted them to shoot, what I wanted them to shoot or move where I wanted them to move.
I suppose this could be an issue or just bad fleet mangement, personally I try to not to have too many ships in a fleet at once for the sake of sanity ane being able to order fleet around like wings. I am fairly new to LU and Mayhem tho so far they shot what I selected every time.


In response to other posters
Regarding Highways and tradelanes yea there is a difference , Freelancer did it really well I can agree on this, you went into the gate and along you go unless pulled out, you could fly there manually if you were willing too or you could jump to destination. That is all I expect lanes to do not see the point in a tradelane and a highway why do you need both? its just confusing at least for me and I hated it. Pick one and stick with that, personally I would have the gates act like freelancer where you can jump in and out any point between and make hidden bases or discover intersting things in null/empty spaces.

get rid of tradelanes once you are in a sector everybody should be afterburning up to speed and setting course imo.
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Post by Killjaeden » Wed, 28. Feb 18, 12:59

I would have the gates act like freelancer where you can jump in and out any point between and make hidden bases or discover intersting things in null/empty spaces.
Freelancer had "fast travel" tradelanes and jump gates that warped you to somewhere else as well. The key here was that the distances where all relatively small inside the "fast travel" area.

If they make distances too large ("for realism") between the major areas of interest, there will be little in between those two points to discover (because the density is just too low and therefore chance to find it by pure accident is very low)
The whole travel system, universe/ map design, gameplay and AI are all deeply interconnected and one bad choice or development decision in one aspect's design can influence all the other aspects negatively.
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Post by Misunderstood Wookie » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 04:11

I am aware.. I have a copy of freelancer I used to play Crossfire mod with.

I just like the fast travel better in Freelancer than the idea of visually seeing lanes as portrayed how they were in X:R, if they reduce the visual effect nature of these lanes and get rid of the tunnels (maybe) tunnels, are not a bad idea if they are used well there could be express lanes up top and normal lanes below but I digress.

Freelancer had those fast travel lanes in the sector and gates to jump to other sectors this was a nice way of doing things, and they did not appear to clutter the map. I did not like how the universe map was designed in X: R due to how they textured lanes and from what I see in X4 broadcasts I am not going to like the map in this one either. I guess my main argument remains which is X4 looks like a refurbished X:R engine with higher rez models I could be wrong, Egosoft already bamboozled us with X:R and the game we agot looked nothing like what they showcased during development I guess when they decided to go console a lot of detail was lost.

I clearly remember the initial promise was diversity in stations and unique layouts and things like that at the trade of-of having one ship which they promised could be upgraded and so forth which at the time I think most of us Egosoft fans were thinking yea alright instead of getting inside other ships we add modules to this ship and change the design that way by modifying our ship which was not the case.

If anyone has solid evidence to counter argue that X4 looks like a re-hashed X:R modified to suit X3 fans then, by all means, prove me wrong because I want to be proven wrong! I love these games but I am not buying anything they say this time around until I see it first hand in the curator's hands.
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