Capital Ship Weapon Battery and Missile Consoles

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

If we do get to control the artillery and missiles on a capital ship then I would like to propose the following.

The piloting, weapon battery and missile control are three separate consoles within the capital ship bridge.

Further more the weapon battery and missile control consoles are virtual environments.

If you pilot a ship you still have full access to the map and all of the other information systems in the game.

If you decide to take the gunnery position, you only have access to a dedicated virtual environment for controlling the ships artillery. The same applies to missile control. To regain access to the map and other controls you must leave the virtual environment to do this.

[Killjaeden]

And what is your explanation or reasoning what makes this worthwhile to pursue?

From logical standpoint (in-universe) i would say this does not make much sense, because effective commands needs to interoperate properly by sharing all important information and stuff. Isolating every bit seems contra-productive.

[Vandragorax]

I like the idea of having some kind of super-long-range artillery on capital ships that can only be fired manually by a gunner (I think that's what you're getting at here) but maybe it's better left to games like World of Warships.

In space there would be no gravity to compensate for so there isn't much to do with aiming, it's just point and click (only thing you need to do is lead the target if it's moving) since you can't arc the shots.

Would also perhaps be too annoying to fight against an AI ship that can out-range your stations defences lol

What could work well is being able to control large torpedoes like we can in XR through the 'drone' AR interface (Kyon Torp), but from capital ships like long-range artillery ships. Maybe firing a salvo of 3-5 torps that all get controlled together from the lead torpedo via the gunner's AR console.

At least then we get the options for missile defence against the torps.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

The UI for controlling guided missiles already exists in XR.

Extending this interface and adding it to an XL ship in X4 would seem to me like a "logical" progression.

I then got to thinking that if this was added then doing something similar for the turreted weapons might also be a "good" idea.

In order for the player to take control of an XL ship's main weapons, would then require direct interfacing with those systems. Removing the ability to access the map and other important systems. Potentially controlling an XL ship's weaponry could give the player an advantage, so there should be a downside.

Also it now introduces tactical choices / decision making.

1) I can stand on the bridge let the AI control the flight and weaponry, while I view the action via the map and issues orders.

2) I can take over the pilots seat and manoeuvring of the ship, with access to the map and other control system.

3) I can take over control of weapon batteries but lose control of the map and other control interfaces.

4) I can take over control of the missile launch system but lose control of the map and other control interfaces.

With 3 and 4 the user gains control of target acquisition. They can select which surface elements they want to disable / destroy. This alone will probably give the player a significant advantage.

[Killjaeden]

Potentially controlling an XL ship's weaponry could give the player an advantage

Unless they build specific, player centric features that give him more power this is unlikels. In X3 you where better off letting the turret commands do their job, because the player himself had no advantage - he used the same aim assist (and if not, he had considerably worse hit chance). The only key factor is target selection, and target selection does not require direct controll of the guns, because thats a thing of command, which requires map and sensor intel for best possible target selection.

[LittleBird]

What could work well is being able to control large torpedoes like we can in XR through the 'drone' AR interface

Honestly I can not see anything usefull in controlling them.

1. If you control a torpedo you can not do anything else.
2. If you control a torpedo your target is far away enough so you can control a torpedo longer than just for 10 secs. Controling them in close range combat is useless.
3. If you control the torpedo for longer time you are basically out of combat (see 1.)

[GCU Grey Area]

What could work well is being able to control large torpedoes like we can in XR through the 'drone' AR interface

Honestly I can not see anything usefull in controlling them.

Remember XR (so presumably X4 too) has destructible subsystems, such as engines, turrets & shield generators. Manual control of a torpedo has great potential due to being able to choose precisely which of those subsystems are eliminated each time a torpedo hits. Makes a significant difference to the outcome of a battle if, for example, you nuke engines first, then long range turrets. Certainly does in XR anyway.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Killjaeden

In X3 you where better off letting the turret commands do their job, because the player himself had no advantage

Really? That is not my experience of playing X3 and taking charge of turrets.
I once took out a Kha'ak destroyer using the rear turret of an Elephant.

Besides I don't see the relevance of X3, that game engine reached its end of life years ago. The only games that used the earlier versions of the current game engine are Rebirth and Rebirth VR.

In Rebirth target selection was a key factor. Especially when taking on larger ships with large numbers of surface elements. At no time did it require commands, a map or sensor intel to make it work.

Also humans can learn that certain enemy weapons need to be destroyed before others. They can set target priorities. They also learn by experience. So if they find a successful attack methodology they can repeat it.

[Fleabum]

I never jumped into the turrets, its not my style of gameplay. So long as the turrets kill missiles, then enemy targets as instructed, I'm happy.

Besides I don't see the relevance of X3, that game engine reached its end of life years ago. The only games that used the earlier versions of the current game engine are Rebirth and Rebirth VR.

X3 wasn't a game engine, it was a game... Part of the X(series), and its very much alive with more people playing the X3 series (TC/AP) than XR and XRVR.

This is X4 and should be a continuation on from X3, both with lore and game-play style even though it is built upon a newer game engine. This is what people expect when it is called X4 (and no I don't mean don't add new features, I mean don't change the fundamentals).

If you purely add elements to XR and it has little game-play style to X3 then it should be called XR2 and not X4. If the new game turns out to be XR2 then there will be some disappointment from those who have been waiting years for the true X4 release. But I suspect Egosoft cant afford to do this, they lost alot of X3 players with XR and they need the X3 player base back on-board. Calling the next release XR2 could be commercial suicide after what happened to XR, so X4 it is!

I am still holding out hope that the engine will be moddable enough to remove any the XR crap I hate, and recreate missing elements I enjoyed from previous X(series) games. But we need to wait for more information from the devs or just wait for release, which ever comes sooner. Time will tell.

Regards
Flea

[ajime]

inb4 they came out with beachead turret style standalone minigame for the lulz

[Fleabum]

inb4 they came out with beachead turret style standalone minigame for the lulz

Nooooo.... please.... I used to play that back on my C64.... Was a decent enough game though.

Regards
Flea

[GCU Grey Area]

Manual turret control is one of the X3 features I did miss in XR. Remember it being absolutely vital on a number of occasions in the old games, e.g. doubt I'd have been able to do the Lost Lar starting scenario without being able to periodically jump into the rear turret to shoot down missiles. You can sort of replicate the experience in XR by launching from a capital then staying stationary relative to it (can be certainly useful if your favourite freighter is the woefully armed Lepton), but it's still not quite the same as proper turret control.

[Killjaeden]

@Killjaeden

In X3 you where better off letting the turret commands do their job, because the player himself had no advantage

Really? That is not my experience of playing X3 and taking charge of turrets.
I once took out a Kha'ak destroyer using the rear turret of an Elephant

That is only because the targeting range was arbitrarily limited to below the weapon range, and the slow ass bullets that allowed an enemy to move a signifikant distance before impact, allowing very easy kiting of various capitalship enemies by the player.

Just the same kind of "gaming the system" (or abuse - depends viewpoint) as continuously engaging side thrusters to move faster than main engine allowed to with capitalships.

Remember it being absolutely vital on a number of occasions in the old games, e.g. doubt I'd have been able to do the Lost Lar starting scenario without being able to periodically jump into the rear turret to shoot down missiles.

That was only necessary because the missile defense command was not around, or made unavailable (on purpose). Had an effective turret logic been available (e.g. Missile defense MK2, or MARS even) there would have been no reason to go into the turret, because the turret can react and engage quicker and more precise than you do with manual controll.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Killjaeden

So if I'm reading your post correctly, in the vanilla game a player can be more effective than the AI when controlling a turret.

To get more effective turrets you need to use mods.

[Edit]
So the question now is could the player be more effective when controlling turrets and missiles (in XL ships) in X4. Given that X4 uses a different engine and has a totally different model for elements that can be targeted, attacked and destroyed.

On top of that is the question of how to give the player access to such control systems.

[GCU Grey Area]

Remember it being absolutely vital on a number of occasions in the old games, e.g. doubt I'd have been able to do the Lost Lar starting scenario without being able to periodically jump into the rear turret to shoot down missiles.

That was only necessary because the missile defense command was not around, or made unavailable (on purpose). Had an effective turret logic been available (e.g. Missile defense MK2, or MARS even) there would have been no reason to go into the turret, because the turret can react and engage quicker and more precise than you do with manual controll.

More fun without it though. Indeed it was precisely that lack of automation which made the Lost Lar start challenging & worth doing. Although even after escaping from Xenon sectors & upgrading the targeting software, letting both turrets automatically fire at enemies still had serious issues. Carried on flying the Angel for months after surviving the start. Loved that ship but, for all it's good points, found it was terribly short on weapon energy. Kept a single IRE on missile-only settings in the rear turret, but the front turret was entirely manual - had a PAC & Ion-D in there & either of them would deplete my weapon energy in no time at all if I let that turret fire on auto.

[Killjaeden]

To get more effective turrets you need to use mods.

No, you could also just play a newer game, where the turret logic didn't suck. In AP the turret commands where considerably better compared to TC or, worse, Reunion. Turret logic in X3R was whoefully inadequate at it's job (choose closest target and shoot until its dead or no longer in firing range, no matter what... it would happily try and swat M5 with PPC while a hostile capital is firing at the own ship). If you want to use poor game design as justification for manual controll of turrets - eh sure. My point still stands: If turret logic is properly made and not made unavailable for some arbitrary reason, there is no justification to manually hop in the turret from efficiency standpoint.

With that beeing the case we come back to why this point is relevant at all to the discussion:
There is no real reason to restrict access to information in manual controll of turrets, as you are not more efficient when sitting in the turret. You just do it for fun (which is the main point of doing it).

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Killjaeden

This is very disingenuous,

If you want to use poor game design as justification for manual controll of turrets - eh sure.

where have I stated that turret behaviour is due to poor game design? Personally, I have never been present at an Egosoft design meeting, nor do I have access to their documentation or source code. Therefore I am not in any position to make a judgement on this.

As for mods needed to improve turret behaviour:
You mentioned missile defense mosquito, scripted by Lucike. A bonus plugin. Therefore an Egosoft endorsed mod. MARS, scripted by Gazz, a mod.

[Killjaeden]

where have I stated that turret behaviour is due to poor game design?

You didnt state that, no. But it is what it is. I admit that, "poor game design" is not a fair wording on my part, "too basic of an implementation"/"very underdeveloped" would be more in line with what i wanted to express. Please apologise my unfair wording, Egosoft.

As for mods needed to improve turret behaviour: You mentioned missile defense mosquito, scripted by Lucike. A bonus plugin. Therefore an Egosoft endorsed mod. MARS, scripted by Gazz, a mod.

Read the credits of X3AP. It seems that you don't know, that Gazz contributed to X3AP (besides other X3 modders, including myself). Gazz added some of his routines from MARS in a "downspecked" version to the X3AP Turretscripts, as well as OOS combat mechanic improvements. Egosoft incorporated/endorsed work from modders in the way they did, because they recognize that certain important aspects (such as turret logic and trade/logistic logic/control features) in their games are underdeveloped, even if the game really needs/ benefits massively from the extra attention in that aspect.

I dont consider it is unreasonable to expect from X4 that lessons learned from bonus packs and older X3 iterations are not forgotten and incorporated in some way - even if not exactly to the same extent or in the same form. (The request for internal logistic mechanisms topic is another example of this...)
And this is why i have the expectation, that turrets work much much better in X4 than in X3R vanilla, and at least as good as in X3AP -> Which results in manual turret controll enjoying almost no advantage over full AI controlled (if not even the opposite)-> arbitrarily making manual turret controll less beneficial (by removing access to information) is not a good idea.