Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

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Honved
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Post by Honved » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 16:12

I've got to agree with the sentiment about the stupid tubes cluttering space. They're an eyesore, and nonsensical in so many ways that I can't get past. If they were replaced by a line of "accelerators" spaced about 5-10Km apart, each boosting your speed by 500-1000m/s or something, that's 1% of the materials and costs, and merely "immersion stretching", rather than "breaking".

JDs could be kept if they restricted them to only a handful of points, or to a limited range. The latter could be done through E-cell cost, where it takes at least 10X the current amount of E-cells to jump. A capital ship could only carry enough E-cells to jump 3-5 sectors, and many light fighters would only be able to jump one sector without stripping out guns and shields to fit the E-cells. That presents a steep cost for traders to offset, making most long distance high-speed transport of goods unaffordable, but still possible for some high-value items. A fleet could jump a few sectors to reach a nearby threat, but they'd have to resupply with E-cells in order to get home, or take the slow way back.

In essence, that would allow one to make longer trips with a few stops along the way for refuelling, if it was important enough to justify the cost, but not something you would do on a routine basis. It would also mean that "regional" fleets would need to be placed to cover scattered assets, rather than one central fleet that could jump anywhere at a moment's notice, as is the most sensible answer with unlimited jump capability.

The unrestricted jumpdrive as in X3 just creates too many unbalanced and unbalanceable issues. The fact that most missions were designed with it in mind, and therefore all-but required it, meant that you had no choice but to use it.

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Post by Silla » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 16:44

the game isnt even out now and people are already complaining :roll:

There are people complaining about realism in a game that isnt realistic to begin with.

There are people complaining about a fast travel method akin to gates because they wont allow something different from other games and television.

There are people complaining that they wont play the game.

There are people complaining that they have to play something differently even so they havnt even played it yet.

There are people complaing about X4 being the same as XR in every regard even so it obviusly wont be.

There are people complaining because they think to know better.

There are people complaining because they cant stand the idea that someone else thinks differently.

People like to complain alot. :roll:

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Post by Alan Phipps » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 17:52

@ Silla: Well that's complaining about people complaining! :D

Let's get back onto thread topic please.
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Post by Killjaeden » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 19:06

Silla wrote:the game isnt even out now and people are already complaining
The thing many people dont understand about game development is, that the major, game defining decisions are made at the beginning of development and - once decided - are often so difficult or labour expensive to change at a later date, that it is uneconomical to change after release because many things depend on the initial decisions.

Discussing core game concepts after release of the game is for the most part worthless, as it can only be considered for the next game (if there will be one).

Egosoft has already said that several decisions are not final/ some stuff has not beeing figured out how to do yet. That means NOW is the time to discuss it - for some stuff it will already be too late by now.

Doesn't mean all arguments are equally strong... and yet there is some things that Egosoft dont appear to have considered from the answers we have so far. No developer is perfect or considers everything during development, Egosoft is no exception - as has been demonstrated by certain weaknesses (popular opinion) in game design in Rebirth for example (e.g. small talk minigames and highway minigame) that are results of developer decisions and not result of lack of ressources. They recognized certain weaknesses - and this highlights the problems, nobody is perfect and can foresee everything.
Foresight is better than hindsight. Discussing game concepts is important in identifying key points one has not himself considered. Thinking that either side knows everything or has considered everything is a gross overestimation of this sides intelligence and experience. And that goes for both ways. Discussing game aspects in detail reduces the chance of overseeing something

They havent completed and tested their universe mechanic ideas yet according to what they mentioned in the streams, so even they can't possibly tell yet, if they can manage creating all the other universe mechanic aspects in such a way, that no loss of game/simulation quality will occur when not using Jumpdrives (because having jumpdrives simplifies things for universe balancing algorithm/AI for example). I predict this will be a very very large challenge - as i described a few pages back.

Opinions are opinions - but there are several arguments in favor of not axing JD's in principle, that dont just rely on "i dont like <insert>". I haven't seen a single striking argument why a compromise of keeping the JD's but reducing their overpoweredness by imposing certain limits and restrictions would not be possible from gameplay / gamedesign perspective.

Just as reminder - teleportation would be just as overpowered if it wouldnt be restricted like Egosoft said they would in X4 (just people, limited range, unlocking only over game time, etc...). Same goes for Jumpdrive.
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I would already consider it a win (and reassuring gesture) if Egosoft would acknowledge that the JD in principle might have some merrit after all and consider that while designing their current universe mechanics, so that they dont lose the ability to implement it without major headaches at a later date, should their decision/opinion/need change in future.
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Post by A5PECT » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 23:05

I'm more partial to cruise drives as different ships having different cruise speeds and accelerations would be another avenue to diversify and balance ships. It would also allow for interception rather than forcing defenders to meet attackers at gates/beacons in every instance.
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Post by Fleabum » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 23:29

Jump drives is just one aspect, from a lore perspective, how will it be explained that jump drives suddenly disappeared from the X universe in-between X3 and X4 and this magical bumper lane system appeared... I am sure you can come up with some story, but how realistic and logical will it be.

When a developer announces another release in a series, there are certain expectations that it will be continuation of the series. Look at it this way, there is X3 and XR, they are set in a parallel universes, its got to be, there are no jump drives. No Khaak :)

X3 and XR have have different target markets, for me one is more strategic, to be played with HOTAS, keyboard, mouse, amassing massive fleets of ships and stations and one is more arcade, designed with minigames, useless eyecandy (loot boxes? what the....) and a controller in mind. If you read the forums at the time of XR release, there was a lot of X3 players that expressed dissatisfaction with XR. This maybe was due to the fact they were wanting the next X game to be released to be X4 and it wasn't. Yes, a fault of the X3 players expecting a product that wasn't being designed. But this time its different, its X4!

Move on a few years and the next game has been announced, X4... Weee! At last! But due to the release of XR and expectations there is an issue, some avid X3 players have seen the showcased game, and noticed that its more of XR in it than X3. There are fears and they raise these concerns on the forums so their concerns can be heard, if a developer does not get feedback from their target customers before the game is released, then it is too late. If they hear the concerns during the development cycle then things can be (possibly) adjusted or tweaked prior to full release. Because you may disagree with what they say or their point of view, its not complaining.

The new game is based on the XR engine, with XR flight dynamics, XR travel systems, XR controller systems, XR ships, XR weapons and XR lore then it isn't really X4, its XR2. Its like XR with more ships, better trading systems, fleets and stations. I really, really hope it isn't but this is the gut feeling I get from what I have seen so far.

All in all though, it doesn't matter one way or the other so long as the XR engine is adaptable enough for modders to work their magic and implement jump drives.

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Flea

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Post by X2-Illuminatus » Tue, 3. Apr 18, 12:17

Fleabum wrote:Jump drives is just one aspect, from a lore perspective, how will it be explained that jump drives suddenly disappeared from the X universe in-between X3 and X4 and this magical bumper lane system appeared... I am sure you can come up with some story, but how realistic and logical will it be.
Highways have been introduced in X3AP already, which also sees the first gate shutdowns. If one technology (gates and the gate dependent jumpdrive) fails, it makes a lot of sense for a society to research and use another.
While I understand the sentiment of receiving logical explanations for changes of ingame features, when it comes to game design it's usually much more important to get a consistent gameplay within one game than to provide explanations for every feature changed, removed or introduced since the last one.
Fleabum wrote:The new game is based on the XR engine, with XR flight dynamics, XR travel systems, XR controller systems, XR ships, XR weapons and XR lore then it isn't really X4, its XR2. Its like XR with more ships, better trading systems, fleets and stations. I really, really hope it isn't but this is the gut feeling I get from what I have seen so far.
Well, that Egosoft uses the XR Engine shouldn't be surprising to anyone. I think the advantages of a newly developed engine over one celebrating its 20th birthday soon are obvious. As for the flight dynamics, you can turn off the flight assist mode already in X Rebirth (since version 3.60), if that's what you're referring to. The travel system will be quite different to the one in XR in a number of ways. This has actually been discussed in great detail in this very topic here. X4 is developed with mouse and keyboard as the primary controllers in mind. Not sure where you have got the information from that XR ships are used? In this thread linolafett tells a bit about the design decisions and process of the new ships and also explains why reusing old models is not that simple. Additionally, we saw quite some new ships in the different livestreams already. (In the German forum Terraner X put some screenshots together.) Nothing has been said about specific weapon types so far, so again I wonder where you have got your information from? The last livestream even had a segment about a different weapon aiming behaviour. As for the lore it has actually been said that lore-wise X4 will play in the same universe, but in a different part than X Rebirth. X4 will also tell a different story, not connected to but playing after the events of XR. (So much for your parallel universe theory. ;))
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Post by GT182 » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 03:49

Bring back the TC jump drive. Highways as in X Rebirth don't impress me and many others as well. It was great being able to jump to different systems and not have to travel from one to the other after others were discovered. And after all were discovered it was even greater to jump across the whole system. It even helped you save your own bacon. Or at least give us the option.... we're the ones paying for it. When the developers don't listen to the requests of those buying their work, they suffer in sales.

And bring back being the Assassin. I never like being a Trader. Hunting down the enemy, escaped prisoners, and the like was a blast. And well worth the credits it paid.

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Post by LittleBird » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 09:12

GT182 wrote:Or at least give us the option.... we're the ones paying for it. When the developers don't listen to the requests of those buying their work, they suffer in sales.
Keep in mind we are only a few people on the forum. Speaking for all does not work. You can easily find people who are happy without the jump drives or who want a change in the jump system.
So who should they listen? Flip a coin? :wink:

No. The devs can listen to our suggestions. Not in terms of "20 people request X let us consider X not Y" but in "There is a discussion about game element X maybe there is a point we have not think of".
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Post by Jeraal » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 15:26

As much as I love JD's, I would be more than happy to give them up to get rid of the space tubes.
Brute force and ignorance solves all problems, just not very efficiently.

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Post by Fleabum » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 15:38

Jeraal wrote:As much as I love JD's, I would be more than happy to give them up to get rid of the space tubes.
Your giving up jump drives for more space tubes! ;)

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Flea

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Post by Jeraal » Sat, 7. Apr 18, 20:11

Only 'IF' I buy it. Depending on what else is announced to be put in/taken out, I might not. Or at least wait for a major price drop.
Brute force and ignorance solves all problems, just not very efficiently.

If brute force isn't working, then you aren't using enough.

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Post by gbjbaanb » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 17:13

LittleBird wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote:The whole argument about JDs affecting trade is easy to resolve: make them expensive to buy and/or operate.

If my trade ship stocked full of Boron plankton travelled a few sectors to sell them for 1000c profit, it'll be sent to slowly fly there. If it could jump there and sell them for 1000c but the fuel cost 1200c, then I won't. Add the cost of the JD itself as 1 million c, and no trader will bother to put them on.
It really is that simple.
In that case the JD becomes a powerfull tool the longer you play. Later on you have the credits. And I can not see that jump trading would be loss-making everytime. Especially later on when you trade with expensive stuff. On top of that your ability of jumping your fleets will hurt the game balance.
Besides using JD to jump a few sectors instead of flying the distance is not the big problem. But using JD to jump many sectors is.


Following your suggestion making JD using expensive I think about time costs instead of money. Because with credit costs you have all the problems described above. But no matter how rich you are you can not buy time. So what about recharge time depending on the jump distance?
In any case it should be: recharge time > time you need for back travel.
Using such a JD for trading would be one way only. Moving your fleet with it means it will be stucked for a wile.
Don't forget that in this scenario, you've played the game for ages and have gotten bored with normal trading, so a JD trade fleet will not make much difference to your game state (you'll be so rich already) but will make a difference to you as a player who seeks different challenges at the end game. That sounds like another win to me.

Time costs work too - and if the JD required full energy load from the ship (ie no weapons or shields) for a time post-jump, then you wouldn't be jumping anywhere even the least bit dangerous as you'd be a sitting duck (for pirates or enemy war fleets). Net result: JD as a time saver, not a tactical weapon.

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Post by wellmadman » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 02:24

Your giving up jump drives for more space tubes
Why should I give up something that a lot of people WANT/LIKE over something a lot of people inclueding myself NOT want?

Tubes in space is SUCH a bad idea, I sure EGO will try their best with them, but this Topic on the forums has the MOST pages I think 8, just under (did ego soft miss xxx yyy(I forget the rest)) So a lot of people are Vested in Jump drives.

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Post by Lwerewolf » Tue, 17. Apr 18, 06:33

wellmadman wrote:
Your giving up jump drives for more space tubes
Why should I give up something that a lot of people WANT/LIKE over something a lot of people inclueding myself NOT want?

Tubes in space is SUCH a bad idea, I sure EGO will try their best with them, but this Topic on the forums has the MOST pages I think 8, just under (did ego soft miss xxx yyy(I forget the rest)) So a lot of people are Vested in Jump drives.
I think they've already mentioned multiple times that the "tubes in space" won't be the way they were in the original sectors (a.k.a. random snakes in space). They already started backing away from that with the X:R HoL expansion - take a look at the highways in home of light. They could make things like the original sectors work with highways that are more or less transorbital accelerators too - series of one-way-only in-sector jumps.

As for the jumpdrive - I'm in the "fine if it's back in, so long as it's very costly/limited" camp. I wouldn't mind multiple types (p2p, lock to beacon/gate only, etc), but the way they are in x3 just breaks the universe for me. Teleportation and the way better "RTS-type UI" should make up for the rest.

Full disclosure - x:rebirth's slow to navigate and full of "wait for me to finish talking/etc" UI was what I hated the most. Didn't mind the lack of "fast travel".

...and somenbody mentioned that kha'ak were missing in x:r... what? ;)

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Post by spankahontis » Fri, 20. Apr 18, 17:04

gbjbaanb wrote: Net result: JD as a time saver, not a tactical weapon.
Seems to be anti-Tactical to me, you can just throw ships at an enemy and jump out when it gets too hot.
There should be risks to engaging an enemy.

And jumping to the other side of the Universe, plopping a station there is no fun for me, I like to be in a particular part of space and expand slowly to the next.
I like the sense of scale.

The Q wrote:And here we go again. Another user who knows what everyone wants, ignoring reasons behind decisions which have been communicated so far and discussed by other users in detail. What about stating your opinion as what it is an opinion, instead of calling everyone stupid, who does not agree with you?! I know it's a complicated concept, but feel free to try it.

As for your so-called facts: X Rebirth has jumpdrives, too.

X4 will not have a jumpdrive, but highways, the turbo booster, travel drive, the SETA, and teleportation. So all in all will have more options than X3 to travel through the universe on a faster or slower pace.

As for the other things mentioned, I suggest checking out the Q&As and livestreams linked in the .

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Post by gbjbaanb » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 14:17

spankahontis wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote: Net result: JD as a time saver, not a tactical weapon.
Seems to be anti-Tactical to me, you can just throw ships at an enemy and jump out when it gets too hot.
There should be risks to engaging an enemy.
I'm playing Stellaris at the moment ('tis good) and one of their mechanics is that a fleet sent to battle will see some/most of your ships "emergency jump" out if they get battered too much. As a result, you don't have the old "sent my fleet into battle, lost and now I'm completely defenceless" problem most games have, here you still have half your fleet to rebuild. It works very well as a mechanic, so I think it would work in X4 too - meaning your battles would be more tactical and territorial rather than seeing who can junk the most metal.

So a JD to warp your ships to safety.. excellent idea!

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Post by Pesanur » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 16:01

gbjbaanb wrote:
spankahontis wrote:
gbjbaanb wrote: Net result: JD as a time saver, not a tactical weapon.
Seems to be anti-Tactical to me, you can just throw ships at an enemy and jump out when it gets too hot.
There should be risks to engaging an enemy.
I'm playing Stellaris at the moment ('tis good) and one of their mechanics is that a fleet sent to battle will see some/most of your ships "emergency jump" out if they get battered too much. As a result, you don't have the old "sent my fleet into battle, lost and now I'm completely defenceless" problem most games have, here you still have half your fleet to rebuild. It works very well as a mechanic, so I think it would work in X4 too - meaning your battles would be more tactical and territorial rather than seeing who can junk the most metal.

So a JD to warp your ships to safety.. excellent idea!
This is an interesting idea, in battle you cannot make a normal jump, but you can make a emergency jump, but because you cannot properly charge the jump drive, and the created wormhole is unstable, the jumping ships results severally damaged.

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Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 16:19

Hmm, so you consider making an emergency jump because you have taken serious damage already yet knowing that you will get even more severe damage on top as a result? Whether you jump and risk losing the ship anyway or continue fighting and hope to win would be a very tricky decision to make in the middle of a battle going badly for you. Perhaps quite realistic though.
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Post by Pesanur » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 20:00

See in this way, your ships are intercepted by a more powerful fleet that they cannot beat. With the emergency jump they can escape, and even if they end that damaged that probably more of one ship need to be towed to a shipyard, you at least not lost the ship with it crew (magical in space ship repairs without the need of supplies and spare parts is one thing that I not like of Rebirth).

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