Ranty McRant Thread 2

[mrbadger]

Online teaching has it's place, and I am including that increasingly in my own work, but you cannot remove the classroom element if you want to really reach your students.

Well you can, but only for those students who are totally convinced they can teach themselves.

In reality very few can. I was of of the few who could, and I adored lectures and workshops, even if all I used them for was to discuss points with lecturers and get pointers on where to go next. I would have hated studying an online degree, and they were available, I didn't do my undergrad degree till 2000.

Most students who think they can end up failing to learn at all. You need someone like me to direct your studies. I have had some students like myself, who also treated lectures like resourses, they didn't need to be there, but came anyway, most of the time. But they always turned in great work, so I never complained about non attendance.

They differ from me in that I only missed one lecture in my entire time at university because I was ill (and the lecturer discussed a vision algorithm I wrote, so I bitterly regret it), but they're not me.

I only got strict when they became my final year project students, at which point 100% attendance was required unless notification in advance was given.

[Hank001]

@ clakclak

Somewhat proven by the present US government showing the collective maturity of grade schoolers.

@ mrbadger

"A student without a mentor is a ship without a rudder and compass"

[mrbadger]

Since when has being in your twenties suddenly meant your an adult if you still behave like that?
[...]

Well I guess if anyone who ever did something stupid, rude or childish can not be considered an adult, than there are no adults and the word is meaningless.

Do you know my wife?

Anyway, maturity is the word you're looking for, and acting mature is something people need to learn to do in situations that make them feel uncomfortable, like learning.

Whereas mashing up my granola into my yoghurt may not be mature, but I'll darned well do it because I want to

It is at least low suger home made granola

[Morkonan]

On student in-class behavior, including jabbering, texting, twitting and ipwning...

Sure, cell-phone jammers can be illegal and Faraday cages a bit impractical, but what ever happened to the failing grade, a "zero for the day" or just kicking them out of the class for being disruptive, inattentive or just being jerks?

In real life, if they act like this during their boss's presentation at yet-another-weekly-team-meeting-you-coulda-just-emailed-me-about they'd get fired. Or, at the very least, get chewed out and written up.

Is there something I'm missing that makes it seems like professors just have to suck it up these days and "deal with it?" Back when I was in college, if you did something the prof had called people out on or had definite rule about, you'd be "asked to leave" at the best. Granted, we didn't have many cellphoe issues back then, but we had the same sorts of other issues.

So, what are the pressures that profs are up against when they don't seem to be applying the standard "hit it with a hammer" approach to student discipline issues in class?

[clakclak]

Since when has being in your twenties suddenly meant your an adult if you still behave like that?
[...]

Well I guess if anyone who ever did something stupid, rude or childish can not be considered an adult, than there are no adults and the word is meaningless.

Do you know my wife?
[...]

There is a joke here, but it's to lowbrow even for me.

On student in-class behavior, including jabbering, texting, twitting and ipwning...

Sure, cell-phone jammers can be illegal and Faraday cages a bit impractical, but what ever happened to the failing grade, a "zero for the day" or just kicking them out of the class for being disruptive, inattentive or just being jerks?

In real life, if they act like this during their boss's presentation at yet-another-weekly-team-meeting-you-coulda-just-emailed-me-about they'd get fired. Or, at the very least, get chewed out and written up.[...]

Difference being that if they are employees their boss pays them and from all I have heard about colleges in the US the situation is quite the opposite here.

[mrbadger]

I can't kick a student who's paying £9,000 a year out of my classroom, I have been told this.

However no-one has said I can't leave, so this has been my chosen method is the students are too disruptive. I haven't needed to do that more than twice.

In Exeter University I was allowed to kick students out, and I did.

[Hank001]

@ mrbadger

£9000 is $12000 at today's eexchange rate. Guess I should have schooled abroad. Could have saved a packet.

[red assassin]

Why are adult university students at the end of a session not able to wait till whoever is speaking finished what they are saying before packing their bags? It is rude and annoying.

I had a German lecturer who avoided this issue by finishing every lecture within a minute before the scheduled end time, having precisely filled the entire full-wall scrolling blackboard (but never erased anything), entirely from memory each time. It was uncanny.


On recorded lectures vs live... honestly, 95% of university teaching involves a person standing at the front of the room talking with slides and/or a blackboard, a process which doesn't require the live presence of anybody involved (and indeed, arguably being able to pause, rewind, and ideally have subtitles is significantly better than live!). The only downside here is that people are perhaps even less likely to actually watch the lecture when there isn't a scheduled time for it.

The bit where having the live teacher pays off is the elusive remaining 5%, which is already highly dependent on both the teacher and the student involved, but it's the only bit that actually adds value and it's the bit that we should be emphasising. On the (professional) courses I teach, we aim for about 80% lab time and at worst a 5:1 student:teacher/lab demonstrator/TA ratio. Much less and it's a waste of everybody's time.

[CBJ]

I had a German lecturer who avoided this issue by finishing every lecture within a minute before the scheduled end time, having precisely filled the entire full-wall scrolling blackboard (but never erased anything), entirely from memory each time.

Reading the start of that sentence, I thought you were going to resurrect the tale of the German lecturer that gave their whole lecture as a single sentence with lots of nested clauses, and only rattled off the verbs that made the whole thing make sense at the end of the allotted time.

[Morkonan]

...Difference being that if they are employees their boss pays them and from all I have heard about colleges in the US the situation is quite the opposite here.

Well, they gotta learn how to respect the guy that's giving them their meal-ticket somehow. If they can't respect the prof, they have to respect their fellow students, and if they can't respect them... They'll get eaten alive at their job, if they're lucky enough to get past the interview.

I can't kick a student who's paying £9,000 a year out of my classroom, I have been told this. ...

First off, students in the US would kick a puppy and drink a gallon of burning turpentine just to have the privilege of handing you that kind of money every year for a quality education.

Second, whenever a prof had a confrontation with a student, at least those I witnessed, they were always sure to bring up "It's your money we're talking about, here, not mine." IOW, the first line of attack was "you're wasting your parent's money by being a jerk."

Then, there was midterms, which were usually the cut-off date, or a bit before, for late-withdrawal. IOW, a student could opt out of the course by withdrawing. I can't remember the mark they'd get, ("W"), but it didn't effect their final graduating scores.. I think. Regular withdrawals within 10 days had absolutely no qualifiers or penalties and possibly a percentage of their course fees refunded. Late withdrawals didn't get such privilege.

I've seen professors kick students out of their classroom, but usually the most hot-headed ones. Hot-headed profs, that is! The rest were good enough to diffuse problems early on. And, since such students usually did poorly, they were the first students that got called into a conference before midterms hit, to be advised it'd probably be better if they withdrew from the course.

I got sort of kicked out of class, once... The professor was wrong. He was an associate prof/grad student, so it's forgivable.. But, he was teaching us wrong[/]. So... I told him so and he was not amused. But, we came to an agreement and I only had to show for scheduled exams after that unless I felt like attending the class, so long as I kept my mouth shut. (And, I'm sure you guys know how difficult that is...for me.)

... On the (professional) courses I teach, we aim for about 80% lab time and at worst a 5:1 student:teacher/lab demonstrator/TA ratio..

^--- This. I never liked the sort of large lecture halls where no prof can actually see many of their students, much less spend any time with them 1:1. Those courses weren't worth anyone's time, may have just as well read the book and taken the final exam as soon as possible. (Some early classes like that, the best sort of classes for that environment in some subjects, can be "cripped" if one wishes to attempt it. Or, at least one could back in the day. The slang is interchangeable with very easy classes, too.)


It's interesting to read about the constraints that teachers in other countries face in higher education. I'm sure there are similar concerns in the US, too. When it comes down to disruptive students, though, that may be impacting the "value" of instruction that other students are getting, there's no playing around. Disruptive students get disciplined by being thrown out on their keester.

[Hank001]

Past ranting about overgrown children and how they tend to waste their parents money by "reeling in the years" and past ranting about watching my nation going to hell in a handbasket, and past ranting about my coffemaker deciding it wanted to become a toaster, here's a rant against fate in general.

Beautiful night here and it's 2:48 AM local and tonight we had a perfect look at Aquila and Scutum or the space inbetween where the galactic arm usually occludes a very minor stellar grouping called the Wild Duck Cluster. So we set up a time lapse and broke out the cards. Not ten minutes into it we hear the droning engine of a light aircraft. You got it. Right dead through the field of view with it's lights and anti-collision strobe. Within the very last five minutes of the time lapse! One of my fellows gaged the odds of it passing right through that .0035% of the sky at... yep ASTRONOMICAL.

Figures.

[Alan Phipps]

Are you sure it was a light aircraft? Cue War of the Worlds music … 'The chances of anything coming from the Wild Duck Cluster are a million to one, they said ..'

[Hank001]

@ Alan

If it came OUT of the Wild Duck Cluster I'd have been overjoyed.
We simply set up on a IFR flight path from the airport at Paducah Kentucky to our local airport. We had an idea it was close, but with a 15 minute time lapse we rolled the dice. Still the plane had to cross DIRECTLY through our FOV to ruin the shot as his anti-colliion strobe went off right in frame. That and the dude had to be at least 2 miles off course. Like I said, It figures. We reset and got the shot afterwards, it's just sometimes S___t happens!

[Morkonan]

...One of my fellows gaged the odds of it passing right through that .0035% of the sky at... yep ASTRONOMICAL.

Figures.

Never underestimate the Universe's ability to remind you at the most inopportune time that it hates you.

Have to be there on time? You won't be...

In the middle of a critical Board meeting? You'll trust a fart...

You just met the most beautiful, wonderful, woman in the world? She's off her meds...

That little light that comes on when your gas-tank is low, telling you that you have about another fifteen miles worth of fuel? You don't...

Beautiful sunny day? Skin cancer...

[mrbadger]

I want to make this clear, if it was my choice I would kick them out, I have been told, we have all been told, that we can't.

We also have absurd pass rate requirements, and these are tied to performance reviews.

This is the reality of modern education.

I deal with the former by walking out myself if I felt it was required, which causes such a shock I have only done it twice. And with the latter by having stepped level assesments, with grade cuttoffs, so someone who barely works can pass, but only just.

It says pass, not by how much.

[Morkonan]

...This is the reality of modern education...

There goes that word "reality" again. Damn thing keeps imposing itself where it's not wanted!

There should be a course line that all university/college students must take that teaches them what higher education is about, what their responsibilities are, what the institution's responsibilities are, and how all these things can be fulfilled... That should be taught right beside "How To Learn Stuffs 099."

I'm completely serious. (A course including "reality" in the title, perhaps? "Realities of Higher Education?")

In the UK and in some other countries, the transition from mandated education requirements through "Grade 12" to formal higher education with University/College degree status is... not made as significant as it should be. IOW, many students simply move from one system to the other. Those are the fortunate ones that don't have exigent circumstances that force them to realize the importance of this step.

As a result, many students treat higher education as "just another thing they're supposed to do" without considering the true implications of "reality."

The privilege of higher education and its effect on one's life, for the rest of one's life, can never be understated. Yet, at least in the US, it's very rarely stated and made clear to students. They're largely left to realize it for themselves. How can we expect them to act any differently if they're thrust into this "new thing" with no instruction, relying only on their prior experience, of which they have precious little in terms of "reality?"

Anyway, there have been lots of threads on this, since many of your are instructors of one form or another. After reading some of those, I often am struck with the same conclusion - Someone, somewhere, just needs to be punched in the face once. Just once. That will solve the problem. )

[pjknibbs]

In the UK and in some other countries, the transition from mandated education requirements through "Grade 12" to formal higher education with University/College degree status is... not made as significant as it should be.

That may have been true 30 years ago, where you actually got paid to go to university (when I went, there were no tuition fees and I got a yearly grant of over £2000 to live on), but nowadays, when you're going in to debt to the tune of £9000 per annum before you even start to think about rent or eating or minor fripperies like that, I think you'd have to be really, really dim not to realise things have changed and you're in grown-up world now.

[Hank001]

Okay so Fridays are my medical checks day. The checkup for problem "A" went quicker than usual. Mostly checking the holes they corkscrewed into my bones to check for infection. Then checks to make sure Dr Phil Graston (med joke) was on duty making sure what little hair I have left didn't fall out or I started glowing in the dark. While that might be handy in place of nightlights.

Problem "B" is usually more of a concern and deals with my eyes. So where's where I toss you a twist. This RANT isn't about my health it's about GAMING!

It started with Dr "John Doe" asking, "Hey you're a gamer aren't you?"
I answered by asking if felines had anal orfaces and if bears defecate in forested area and was given an address in a local business incubator.

They were developing VR headsets and were looking for people with visual abnormalities to guage the effectiveness of the headgear to warp the visual ... well to make the world look normal where it looks screwed up. After amazing these young PHD's that I'd already gotten a few places ahead of them they packed up and drove me all the way out to my home in the boondocks.

Here I'll break and say that while I was gone UPS had delivered my new coffee maker I ordered from Amazon. Hurray!

One showing them my gear we loaded up what software the had and adjusted the VR headset to my eyes and then they told me something that had slipped my mind at this point. "Here's our test games, which one?" I was looking at a menu. "Problem?" One asked. Probably seeing my sneer. "No it's just these are old as corn... Well and Bioshock. I really hated running into that glitch with..." I heard both guys groan. One asked, "Which one of them?" "That damn steamy widow that was supposed to have a number on it, but all I saw was a window." Both sighed in relief and one told me, "That killed until about one point two." "Hey!" I blurted and asked "I think I have the old save. Will it work?".

Half an hour and a REALLY good cup of coffee later I found the old backups with the save file and then was amazed with the semi-clearity the headset gave me keeping in mind that it did NOT give me VR it simply gave what I saw close to what a normally sighted person sees on a display. I loaded up the save and was amazed to see that on a steamy window the dying NPC had scrawled the safe combination 9472! The PHD's behind me cheered and I turned by character to the wallsafe. Nothing! It could have been a prop. "What's wrong? I can't use the safe?" Well we even went back to my monitor and I chaned it so they could use it, but no go. So we googled the roblem. Nothing. One called a friend that had gotten the licencing to use the game for research. We had him on speaker phone. "Oh that. Sorry but you can't use an old save file. You have to start from scratch."

The good news is since it's Saturday they are leaving some of the gear here and coming back tomorrow. The bad news?

They never really fixed Bioshock and I still don't have an internet commection to my @$!#! 5 months after the cable was mangled. And their VR system works a hell of a lot better than my cobbled together systems but costs about as much as a new car!

[Morkonan]

...They never really fixed Bioshock and I still don't have an internet commection to my @$!#! 5 months after the cable was mangled. And their VR system works a hell of a lot better than my cobbled together systems but costs about as much as a new car!

But, dude... This is awesome stuff! You're on the ground floor, helping test gear that might help you, but could surely help people in the future! THAT IS AWESOME!

And cost? Get it Medicare approved... Heck, once they have workable tech, they may be able to partner in getting support for it in standard VR sets. Dangle Medicare approval in front of a manufacturer's nose and the sky is the limit on what's possible. At the very least, it should get tax write-off status as a "device for a disability" thingie.

I remember a guy who was making console controllers for handicapped people, but not the ones we've seen in stories, lately, with haphazard Radio Shack stuff stapled to plywood. IIRC, he was desperate for some help, but I don't know what became of his charity. (He designed a controller that was featured in a story about a blind kid who loved playing "Abe's Odyssey" and he also had some physical disabilities.

Is this startup a non-profit?

PS - Grats on your awesome cup of coffee! I had my usual two mugs, today, which is about four standard cups or so. It's good for me because I say it is...

A side note: Getting contractor work done and some other contractor stuff going on, too. Everyone wants to email their crap. "What's your email? We'll email you the bill/estimate/naked pics of our mom/contract...

I don't want their friggin email. I got too much crap to go through, already. And, my junk email addy is still another darn addy I have to check. What about records? I NEED PAPER STUFF!

One guy left a voicemail, a few days ago, stating that he must have gotten my email addy wrong, because it kept getting kicked back. That is BS... Nobody could screw up that darn email addy. I didn't reply and he dropped off his estimate, today - Hard copy, in duplicate, with carbonless copy backsheet, JUST LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS!

Anyone remember those? Carbonless copy forms? We used to print the darn things out by the boxfull, with stacks and stacks of triplicate, sometimes quadruplicate, forms getting banged out with dot-matrix printers and that old "mimeograph" smell which is truly classed in the chemical industry as a "Technical Odor." (That's what the chem industry classes just about anything that doesn't have an otherwise definable smell, but has a somewhat "sharp" smell to it, like many solvents. Yeah, you have to classify the smell in writing.)

Anyway, it's refreshing to see someone still thinks its their responsibility to not only supply me with a printed contract, but a signed copy, as well.

[Hank001]

@ Morkonan

Oh man your right about the ground floor IF this wasn't more of something like a franchise off a major medical comglomerate than anything else. I'm hardwired into the VA system...

The dudes are smart to use video game engines for testing, that's their bit in the big picture. Another group working out of a Missouri college just aross the Mississippi got time on the national news trating a kid's eye problems with their rig. The rig here doesn't use cameras so I couldn't walk around with it, but for reading, watching TV and such, IT'S THE BOMB!

It's really all about the data they are collecting while I have the stuff on. Eye movement, etc after they dialed the gear into my problem, which is my central vision is gray blobs with black specs messing with my peripheral vision. The goggles have enough ass to burn through the gray and not overpower the periphery. Cool eh?