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Mightysword
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Post by Mightysword » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 20:52

Observe wrote: What we need, is to find common ground between opposites. This is what the political process is for, but for some reason, it seems to have become very dysfunctional.
With equal blame going to all sides ... how many there are.
... So The right of Transgenders to enter little girls bathrooms ...
And here is a good example of the dysfunctional. I don't know about other countries, but here in the US whenever this issue comes up it's very toxic, and there are barely anything represents a proper discussion. The pattern is always seem like this: this is my god given right and none of your concern matter, otherwise you are an "insert degenerate label of choice here". Specifically, I have seen people who support all equal right for transgenders, but they have issues/concern when it comes to the bathroom right. In my opinion, regardless of what side of the argument one is one, objectively those are valid concerns. Concerns that should be discussed and addressed. The problem is ... there is rarely any ground for that discussion in the first place, everyone hit the ground running yelling and labeling each others on the first step. Luckily, most public institution I visited had now installed a third option for the bathroom, so the silent majority with a cooler head prevail ... at least for now.

The same-thing can be said about most other issues like immigrant. Either you are supporter of immigrant, or you are not, no in between is allowed, and everyone will be labelled appropriately. This is just something I come up to quantify the argument a bit, but for example, if I gonna break down where people stand on the issue it would be like this, in an certain order (ascending or descending is up to you to decide)

1 - Real Racism and Xenophobia: America belongs to the white, other races are a disease.
2 - Nationalist: American citizen comes first, everything else is second.
3 - Negative Cautious: Don't particular have anything against immigrants themselves, but worry the impact of an influx will have to the society.
4 - Neutral: don't particular care either way. If an immigrant come work for me it's a boon, if an immigrant took a job that could have been mine then it's bad, mileage varied.
5 - Positive Cautious: would like to help people in need, but only within reasonable capacity. Would prefer to see long term plan instead of spontaneous response.
6 - This nation is a country of refugee: we should do all we can and what we can to help, I'll do my part and hope to see everyone will do the same.
7 - The extreme: unless you are #6, then you are an "insert degenerate label here".

I had brought this up in the past, and it was quickly dismissed by the #7 because to them, there is no such thing as "valid concerns" when it comes to this issue. If you have any, than you are simply #1 and #2. And that means, there is no room for discussion or debate. And this lead to while there are a wide range of spectrum where the population scatter across, ultimately the narrative are controlled and driven by only the two most extreme outer edges, just like we're seeing now. Eventually, the #3 people are pushed toward and become #1 or #2. The #4 and #5 do not have anything to do with #1 or #2, but they are also rejected by #6 and #7 and in turn considered to be in the same lot as #1 and #2.

And people keeps wondering why the middle ground doesn't exist any more, it's because they're not even acknowledged. ;)

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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 21:01

- this might get interesting - only because I greatly admire Miss Page :roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1oqc-WQzOw
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 21:04

Mightysword stated:
And why people keep wondering why the middle ground doesn't exist any more, it's because they're not even acknowledged. :wink:
Excuse me. I'm picking myself up off the floor since I on this point agree with you.

(And still watching CSPAN3 and the Republicans just broke their own rules to hush the Democrats to let Gowdy do a follow up question. The Republicans aren't happy that they're pulling no insights into what Mueller has out of Strzok.)

OMG Gohmet from Texas has just insulted the hell out of Strzok and the Chairman backed him up! It's now okay to impune the character of a witness in hearings! That rule was put in place after the McCarthy Hearing and the floor is pandemonium!
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Post by RegisterMe » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 21:29

Hank001 wrote:OMG Gohmet from Texas has just insulted the hell out of Strzok and the Chairman backed him up! It's now okay to impune the character of a witness in hearings! That rule was put in place after the McCarthy Hearing and the floor is pandemonium!
What are the consequences of something like this?
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020

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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 21:32

- it's designed to cast aspersions on the FBI - ahead of Mueller's eventual report..

- at a time when Supreme Court nominations are being directly influenced by a criminal in the White House..

- dangerous times.. :o
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Observe
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Post by Observe » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 21:44

Skism wrote:- Support women's rights - if you mean rights to murder children then no....
Does this come from concern for the unborn, hatred of women, both or neither?

It is interesting how often we see evangelistic concern for the unborn, while at the same time, general disdain for those who actually made it into this world. The only explanation, is indignation being used as a cover-up for 'I don't care'.

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 22:30

Mightysword wrote:With equal blame going to all sides ... how many there are.
You know, there are some sorts of subjects where I'm just tired of hearing the "equal blame" or "both sides are at fault" excuse. It's often a placating remark designed to disarm opponents while attempting to cut through the appearance of bias.

And, sometimes, there isn't an equal share of blame. Sometimes, people are just doing the "wrong thing."

I truly mean individual "people," here. Both collective "Parties" are full of crap and guilty of adding fuel to the fire at every step. But, those parties are made up of willing individuals who have made a choice to say or do something - They are responsible for their own actions, not the collective innocence of some imagined political party ideal.

So, yeah, I can't always accept the "both sides are at fault" argument, simply because I do not accept a viable argument that consists of me having to acknowledge that seeking to do good is, in someway, at "fault." The methods can be, of course, but when you make a stand against "wrong" and you do that "right," you're not liable for being blamed for the "wrong."

So, what's an example? OK, let's look at the separation of children under five years old from their legitimate parent or guardian who has, supposedly, entered the United States illegally or applied incorrectly for "asylum."

That's bad. We shouldn't do that. In fact, I think we can all agree that it's a "bad thing." So, we should fix that, right? Probably so, so let's do that.

And then comes the finger pointing, the "it's your fault too" and shovel-fulls of BS and foot-dragging.

None of that matters. What matters is that we acknowledge that this is a "wrong thing to do" and that "we should fix this problem." Period. There is no further discussion necessary on whether or not there should be a solution put in place immediately and acted upon positively.

And yet, there is still an undercurrent at times that has people saying "Well, it's everyone's fault." That's wrong. The "fault" lies in those who did it and knew it was morally wrong, but failed to act legally to prevent it. And, at this point, we should be very busy correcting the problem rather than continuing to justify acting by trying to find someone to blame, first.

Screw that. FIX the problem, first, and then you can take your time fixing the blame.

Sorry, a bit of a rant, I know. But, there are times when it should be obvious to us that "Right" or "Wrong" is just not defined by a political party and this sort of opposition isn't the type that should be "sharing blame."

Note: The Dems have made a huge deal out of this, not because the politicians "care," but because they can wave the torch of righteous anger in hopes of getting votes. Every darn Democrat politician I have seen say two words on this subject has been offering as a solution "Elect Democrats." Jackals prey on the kills of greater animals and that's exactly the sort of party they're building if they don't change that painfully obvious tactic.

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Hank001
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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 23:00

@ Morkonan

You might have missed this I posted earlier.
It shows what happens when ones tries to face the
left from the middle:
The end of discussion and dielectrics on
campuses the case of Professor Weinstein:

https://youtu.be/2cMYfxOFBBM

Weinstein before congress:

https://youtu.be/uRIKJCKWla4

Weinstein interview "Is the left eating itself?":

https://youtu.be/9osjKN5VWfM

The result on campus two months later as seen from the left:

https://youtu.be/kCTZ_QQV6Fw
Watching the House Oversight, Judiciary, and "Government Reform" committees' grilling Peter Strzok and both parties turning it into partisan badmouthings on CSPAN3 I'd stay that the time to fix the wagon has passed as the wheels have done flown off. :cry:
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Post by Mightysword » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 23:02

@Morkonan: the difference in our perspective is that you're talking about what happening NOW, and I'm talking about how did we get to that NOW.
How do you feel about someone saying that American is the biggest evil of WW2 by the virtual we were the only one dropping the atomic bombs? Without considering any other factors? ;)


Specifically I said this:
And this lead to while there are a wide range of spectrum where the population scatter across, ultimately the narrative are controlled and driven by only the two most extreme outer edges, just like we're seeing now.
Using the # I did in my previous post as a reference:

62985106 American voted for Trump, do you believe that all those 62985106 are #1 and #2? I believe most are not, however for those who are not, there are no other platforms to voice their opinion or concern. Because ultimately it's matter very little if you are 3, 4, 5. Especially even if you are #5, the moment you show any kind of hesitation and instead of your unconditional 100% support, #6 and 7 will label you as the same category as #1 and 2 anyway. When is the last time you hear in the mainstream narrative that people talk about those in the 3, 4, 5 categories? Personally, I never do, because like I said, they're either not acknowledge, or treated the same as #1 and 2 anyway. Tolerance is something are often not practiced by those preaching it the most.

We're in something equivalent of a civil war in term of ideology. And frankly, when a war is in full swing, do you think it's matter a lot to talk about its brutality, collateral damage? Do you think it's matter to talk about who kill who more? Personally, I don't. There is this saying that I really like: "In a war everyone think they have a reason, yet no one does". The point is, I want to go back to the explore the root cause of the war itself. Are people saying bad things now? Yes they are. But why are they, what enable them, what trigger them, what compel them to say such things. Because like I said, I refuse to believe a good chunk of us are the bigot that the rest of us are trying to make them appear to be.


And yes, on that count, there are enough blame to go to every parties.

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Post by Skism » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 23:08

Mightysword wrote:
Observe wrote: What we need, is to find common ground between opposites. This is what the political process is for, but for some reason, it seems to have become very dysfunctional.
With equal blame going to all sides ... how many there are.
... So The right of Transgenders to enter little girls bathrooms ...
And here is a good example of the dysfunctional. I don't know about other countries, but here in the US whenever this issue comes up it's very toxic, and there are barely anything represents a proper discussion. The pattern is always seem like this: this is my god given right and none of your concern matter, otherwise you are an "insert degenerate label of choice here". Specifically, I have seen people who support all equal right for transgenders, but they have issues/concern when it comes to the bathroom right. In my opinion, regardless of what side of the argument one is one, objectively those are valid concerns. Concerns that should be discussed and addressed. The problem is ... there is rarely any ground for that discussion in the first place, everyone hit the ground running yelling and labeling each others on the first step. Luckily, most public institution I visited had now installed a third option for the bathroom, so the silent majority with a cooler head prevail ... at least for now.

The same-thing can be said about most other issues like immigrant. Either you are supporter of immigrant, or you are not, no in between is allowed, and everyone will be labelled appropriately. This is just something I come up to quantify the argument a bit, but for example, if I gonna break down where people stand on the issue it would be like this, in an certain order (ascending or descending is up to you to decide)

1 - Real Racism and Xenophobia: America belongs to the white, other races are a disease.
2 - Nationalist: American citizen comes first, everything else is second.
3 - Negative Cautious: Don't particular have anything against immigrants themselves, but worry the impact of an influx will have to the society.
4 - Neutral: don't particular care either way. If an immigrant come work for me it's a boon, if an immigrant took a job that could have been mine then it's bad, mileage varied.
5 - Positive Cautious: would like to help people in need, but only within reasonable capacity. Would prefer to see long term plan instead of spontaneous response.
6 - This nation is a country of refugee: we should do all we can and what we can to help, I'll do my part and hope to see everyone will do the same.
7 - The extreme: unless you are #6, then you are an "insert degenerate label here".

I had brought this up in the past, and it was quickly dismissed by the #7 because to them, there is no such thing as "valid concerns" when it comes to this issue. If you have any, than you are simply #1 and #2. And that means, there is no room for discussion or debate. And this lead to while there are a wide range of spectrum where the population scatter across, ultimately the narrative are controlled and driven by only the two most extreme outer edges, just like we're seeing now. Eventually, the #3 people are pushed toward and become #1 or #2. The #4 and #5 do not have anything to do with #1 or #2, but they are also rejected by #6 and #7 and in turn considered to be in the same lot as #1 and #2.

And people keeps wondering why the middle ground doesn't exist any more, it's because they're not even acknowledged. ;)
This ladies and Gentleman is an example of a REAL centrist one of the few left...

Not the type of person who claims to be a centrist then calls others far right....

Now on this list I'm a 3 on a good day and a 2 when practicality sets in (replace America with Britain)

In my mind this does not make me far right - Only if the overton window has moved so far left that anyone to the right that Joesph Stalin is now far right....

It does make me unashamed to be right wing.

You could actually add a 1a the "its the Jews" camp

I got into a blazing argument with a blogger over his treatment of someone who called him out and his statement that you must be against both Jews and SJWS and that being pro free speech was not enough, and that if he was not he was effectively in the ranks of the enemy...

Oh man that was a blazing argument...Purity spirals effectively :roll:

1a are Nazis like actual scary NEO NAZIS that hate Jews with a passion and think all things originate with them.
1 qualify for Far right and they are THE ONLY ONES WHO DO (of this list anyway)

No one else there qualifies for far right and the amount of people there in those categories is tiny

Like you could fit them all in one place and do what you liked with them we are talking a few thousand at most - the left wing media (and its left wing btw ) like to claim they are massive- they are not.

1 and 1a are not welcome with 2 , 3. 4 or 5 and for example UKIP (Unitied Kingdom Independence Party) would kick out any people who where of that category


They really are a very small minority

2 is a hard line but a realistic one and one I can respect.
3 is the default position of conservatives
4 really is neutral but as you said are made out to be the same as 2 when really they are not
5 gets attacked and called a racist - and is scared of the label so shuts up (and I have not heard many of those)
6 seems to tbe default position of several here.
and 7 is what they end up with with suggesting everyone is Racist that Trump is a NAZI, that hertonormative values are transphobia and so on...

There are a few here who fit 7 frankly and whose stated posts fit that definition.

the 7s outnumber the 1s by order of magnitude they are taking over mainstream media and labeling everyone as far right.

And thats why I concentrate on the far left more than the far right.
Last edited by Skism on Fri, 13. Jul 18, 01:34, edited 5 times in total.
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Observe
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Post by Observe » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 23:12

Skism wrote:...
I read your post twice and I have no idea what you said. Admittedly, my attention span is rather short, so it's probably just me.

Skism
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Post by Skism » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 23:13

Observe wrote:
Skism wrote:...
I read your post twice and I have no idea what you said. Admittedly, my attention span is rather short, so it's probably just me.
Im sorry it makes no sense to you......

Try again perhaps?

any way Whilst you are here I wanted to address some points ...

Starting with most recent
Observe wrote:
Skism wrote:- Support women's rights - if you mean rights to murder children then no....
Does this come from concern for the unborn, hatred of women, both or neither?

It is interesting how often we see evangelistic concern for the unborn, while at the same time, general disdain for those who actually made it into this world. The only explanation, is indignation being used as a cover-up for 'I don't care'.
And again we arrive at hatrid of women/sexist slur...7 in action Folks!

It is nether

Though concern for the right to life is important every termination is a manslaughter and at best a necessary evil done to preserve life

At worst it is murder of the innocent and helpless.

It overturns the natural order brings with it a host of other sins and frankly must be curtailed.

We have aborted 1.5 million that is far far too many.
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."

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Skism
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Post by Skism » Thu, 12. Jul 18, 23:41

Are we ready for Trumps visit?

I have my American flag and my MAGA cap ;) as well as my VOTE LEAVE t shirt

Ill be showing my support in London soon - even if the police try to ban it ...again
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."

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Post by clakclak » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 00:45

Observe wrote:
Skism wrote:...
I read your post twice and I have no idea what you said. Admittedly, my attention span is rather short, so it's probably just me.
Observe we had our differences in the past (I assume) but on this I am 100% with you. I have no clue what all of this was about, but I still feel like not understanding it was my fault.
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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 00:54

Skism wrote:Are we ready for Trumps visit?

I have my American flag and my MAGA cap ;) as well as my VOTE LEAVE t shirt

Ill be showing my support in London soon - even if the police try to ban it ...again
- the fact that you have an agenda doesn't mean you're right..
- or even far-right..

- grow up and smell the roses. why don'cha.. :lol:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 00:57

BugMeister wrote:
Skism wrote:Are we ready for Trumps visit?

I have my American flag and my MAGA cap ;) as well as my VOTE LEAVE t shirt

Ill be showing my support in London soon - even if the police try to ban it ...again
- the fact that you have an agenda doesn't mean you're right..
- or even far-right..
- just means you're living inside your head, man..
- open your eyes..

- grow up and smell the roses. why don'cha.. :lol:
- but he would say that, wouldn't he.. :D
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

Skism
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Post by Skism » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 01:32

BugMeister wrote:
BugMeister wrote:
Skism wrote:Are we ready for Trumps visit?

I have my American flag and my MAGA cap ;) as well as my VOTE LEAVE t shirt

Ill be showing my support in London soon - even if the police try to ban it ...again
- the fact that you have an agenda doesn't mean you're right..
- or even far-right..
- just means you're living inside your head, man..
- open your eyes..

- grow up and smell the roses. why don'cha.. :lol:
- but he would say that, wouldn't he.. :D
Thats rich coming from you dude ;)

but are you ready for Trumps visit are you going on an anti Trump march then?
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."

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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 02:24

Hank001 wrote:...Watching the House Oversight, Judiciary, and "Government Reform" committees' grilling Peter Strzok and both parties turning it into partisan badmouthings on CSPAN3 I'd stay that the time to fix the wagon has passed as the wheels have done flown off. :cry:
The damn wheels don't give a crap about the damn Wagon... The Left wants to go as far Left as they can, the Right wants to go as far Right as they can, and whenever anyone mentions the ditch ahead, all any of them care is doing their best to make it seem as it's "the other Wheel's fault."

As an elected official, Lying to the public should be an actionable criminal offense. Of course, claiming "ignorance" is the first defense. Then, false statements will be excused as a matter of "opinion."

I think it's all a matter of ignorant opinions, spiced with purposefully deceitful lies. (no smiley face)

(I've been watching the hearing as well. It's hard to tell who's saying what, since half the reps are either blowing themselves or someone else and there are only so many heads bobbing up and down that one can count at one time. I tried counting flashing bald spots, but that didn't work. :/ )
Mightysword wrote:@Morkonan: the difference in our perspective is that you're talking about what happening NOW, and I'm talking about how did we get to that NOW.
Once, back in the day, there was the threat of a disaster at work. It would have been "A Bad Thing." Action was necessary to prevent it. It didn't matter who caused it or what caused it - The solution was right there in front of our faces. So, we enacted the solution and shut the process down.

Why was there a disaster? Some people chose to ignore what I told them not to do. But, did I bitch while the disaster threatened? No. We worked the problem and the disaster was averted.

AARs, Debriefings, these things are done AFTER the problem is fixed. We've got problems and there are too many pointing fingers and too many desperately trying to pretend there aren't any problems. Meanwhile, the house is burning down and we need "solutions." When it comes time to figure out where we're going to go from here, then we can talk about what the causes of the problems were. That's appropriate and we should do that.

Now, what should "we," the people yammering on the forum talk about? Whatever we want, to be frank. But, what do I think our leaders need to be talking about? They need to be acting to work the problems and fix them, first, then they can sit down and throw blame around.

All this Gaslighting going on... That's what it is. All of that is just making it impossible for people to think about solutions. Instead, they're getting inflamed over suppositions and blame.

These "leaders" aren't leading us anywhere. We are like people trapped in a house-fire when a fireman jumps in. We're so thankful he's there to save us! But, then he starts talking about what stores have the best underwear sales and how the reason there's a fire is because the Democrats/Republicans added chemicals to the water that made all the frogs gay. Before leaving us to die, he reminds us to vote for his party, then disappears in the smoke. Later, our grieving relatives will discover that all our jewelry was stolen and our dog was raped...
..How do you feel about someone saying that American is the biggest evil of WW2 by the virtual we were the only one dropping the atomic bombs?
I try to ignore the ramblings of the belligerently ignorant.
We're in something equivalent of a civil war in term of ideology.
This is false.

Seriously - It is a falsehood.

We are in a war of "political opinion" that is being fought by political parties seeking public support for their candidates to be placed in positions of power.

They don't give two wet farts about "ideology." The want to "win the game" and they will create whatever "ideology" they think they need in order to do that. That includes rampant Nationalism and racist views bordering on truly actionable incitement to riot to screaming dopeheaded SocioComs ranting about failed democracies on the promise of the forgiveness of student loan debts.

They don't care about "ideology." That's just a tool to power, not a goal.

We should have one "ideology" that rests in our Constitution backed up by the spirit of The Declaration of Independence. There... Those are our guiding principles in which our ideology is founded. Any "ideology" that runs contrary to those should not be eligible for consideration.

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Post by felter » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 02:33

The real thing about racists is that they do not think they are racist even when others around them show them why they are racist.

For example lets say someone is always moaning about black people but they don't call them black, they would use the N word. Now you point out to them that they are racist, they would say something like, me I'm not racist, I just don't like "N" because they smell and they are all criminals, insert whatever reason you want here. They will stoically deny that they are racist, saying they are actually this that or the next thing but everyone around them knows they are just a racist pig.

In other words you are wasting your time trying to tell a racist that they are racist, as they can't nor want to see that they are.

Trumps like this, as he categorically denies he is a racist, while all those around him can plainly see that he is.
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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 13. Jul 18, 03:02

felter wrote:The real thing about racists is that they do not think they are racist even when others around them show them why they are racist.
You haven't met enough racists. A "real racist" knows they're racist. They will tell you to your face, in no uncertain terms, that they are racist.
...In other words you are wasting your time trying to tell a racist that they are racist, as they can't nor want to see that they are.
There is altogether too much being made out of "racism" these days. It has gotten to the point where one can't address anything that has to do with ethnicity at ALL before someone in the back row screams out "Racism."

And then, there's the people that think Nationality is the same as Race...
Trumps like this, as he categorically denies he is a racist, while all those around him can plainly see that he is.
Trump probably is. BUT, the thing is, you can't really tell what he believes because he doesn't hold fast to any particular belief that doesn't involve him "being the best, most right person, most correct evar, bestest smarts of everybodies."

The word "racism" is thrown around far too liberally. (Lolz, I made a funny...) It's being abused. Horribly abused. It's being abused to incite people and, worse, just to gain power, prestige or personal wealth.

Racists exist. But, you know what? Who cares? That's their "belief" and their "opinion" and as long as they don't act on it to deny someone their Rights, why should we care? We can't legislate morality or write a law that forces people in a Brain-Changer Machine. As our culture incorporates equality, our population will as well. We have to guard our culture, first, if we want true change.

I don't care if Trump is a card-carrying Nazi, just so long as he does not violate our Constitution, commit crimes, or deface the honor of the Presidency. (Well, he's sort of done all that without being a card-carrying Nazi... :) )

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