X3 TC and AP also X Rebirth ship models into X4

[wellmadman]

@CBJ

Even if they are maybe another way to do it, would be Modders Pick a standard ship inside then build the outside to it? would that work?

[A5PECT]

That requires building new ships from scratch. The point of the thread was to bring already-made models into X4.

Think about it like this:

In X3, a ship was just a static model with up to a few cameras on it for the player to look through. Maybe some guns and turrets, and a docking bay.

In X4, ships are an entire environment the player and NPCs can interact with. It has surfaces that can be walked on, walls and ceilings that stop characters from moving through them, chairs, doors, and teleporters that can be interacted with, modular ship parts with different damage states (i.e. different models), docking bays that store smaller ships in real worldspace (rather than immediately blinking them into hammerspace), animated engines, guns, turrets, landing gear, canopies, loading ramps, landing pads, and all of the information NPCs need to interact with all of these things, e.g. pathing information. All of this is seamlessly integrated into the worldspace of the ship, which is in turn consistent with the worldspace of the universe. Oh, and if a ship docks at another ship, their interiors also connect seamlessly.

An X3 ship absolutely can not be compared to an X4 ship. Bringing the former up to the latter takes a lot of work, and there's no way around that.

[Riccardoman]

I wouldn't only import ships, imo the most important models in all x games are the stations, especially the work of art that egosoft had done in X Rebirth
It would be a pity to lost those outstanding models in time

[Mavor]

@CBJ any chance of us getting a "migration" document to begin upgrading our models to be prepared to integrate into X4? I'm assuming since we are quite close to launch, there should be no major changes to your underlying system?

A simple document with "limitations" and things that we must not do would be enough. For example, "corridors must connect to the edge of the ship's hull", "doors must be called "doors"", etc...

Assuming you plan to have a converter ready for release, this would let us get our ships set up and then after release start bringing them in for testing right away, which would be nice for both you and us.

[DaMuncha]

Importing a 3D model of a ship's hull is, as Alan suggested, the easy part; it's all the stuff that goes around that to make it a functional ship that is harder.

As we've said before, we would love to provide modders with tools for creating ships and stations, but unfortunately it's not proven practical for us to do it so far. The biggest issue is that the toolchain we use in-house has a number of different elements that are closely inter-linked. These include things like a 3DSMax add-in, an in-house database and converter applications that run on particular folders on our network. Disentangling these to provide even part of the toolchain in a form usable by people not on our network would be quite a significant chunk of work (certainly a lot more than a one-person job, sorry Skeeter ). And to make things worse, the rate at which the tools evolve, especially during initial development but also when working on patches and updates, mean that it would be far from a one-off activity.

When the dust has settled from the X4 release, I will bring up the subject again and see whether we can find some time to work on this, but that won't happen soon and I can't make any promises whatsoever regarding whether anything will come of it.

Sounds like Egosoft didnt plan for expanding the game or letting modders improve it later. If its going to be a complete pain in the ass to mod for X4 it will turn into XR again and not get support from modders in the future. One thing that keeps people coming back to X3 is the ability for modders to improve the game or completely change it. Very few mods came out for XR because it was near impossible to mod extensively.

What made modding so easy for Skyrim/Oblivion was the tools were allready set up. To make a new object you opened the new item asset menu, set what kind of object it was, its parameters, and the model to use. Then added it to what ever loot list it was for to see it in game. To make a sword choose sword from the menu, damage, item value, then set which model to use, and BOOM u have a sword u can swing around in the game.

Now if I was to apply that to X4 I would say Hey, this is a ship, its stats, and then say the seat is at Maker A, the teleporter is at Marker B, guns are at Makers C and D and engine is at E. and baboom a new ship. Now if X4 used such a method it would be easy to add in alot more content, change the parameters of what is in the game, and much easier to develop expansions for the game.

From what CBJ is suggesting it sounds like ship model goes in one file, added to another file, stats are in another file, cockpit enclosure is in another file, 3D mesh and texture data is in another file. And to change anything about those files you would need to recompile half the game. This would be a bad way too work.

[CBJ]

Sorry, but in reality, it's throwing everything into one file that would constitute a really bad way to work. Aside from the fact that putting mesh data, textures and balancing data all in one file would be a great way of making them completely unusable by any third party tools available to anyone outside the team, it would also be appallingly bad for workflow. Artists design singular elements (meshes and textures for ships, cockpits, etc.) and re-usable elements (chairs, doors) which can be shared by different objects and therefore need to be kept separate. Artists do not handle things like balancing (stats, usage) so keeping that data in the same file would also be ridiculous, as it would mean involving an artist every time you wanted to change, say, the speed of a ship.

As for needing to recompile half the game to change those files, that's a strawman that you just made up. Nothing I said stated or even implied that, and needless to say it is completely false.

On a more positive note, your description of a system of markers where given items go describes pretty much exactly how the game does work. It's not quite a simple as you make out, because the game needs more information than just where something is physically in order to work efficiently, and there are more than just the visible items that need to have such markers, but other than that it's about right.

[MegaJohnny]

Sounds like Egosoft didnt plan for expanding the game or letting modders improve it later. If its going to be a complete pain in the ass to mod for X4 it will turn into XR again and not get support from modders in the future. One thing that keeps people coming back to X3 is the ability for modders to improve the game or completely change it. Very few mods came out for XR because it was near impossible to mod extensively.

What made modding so easy for Skyrim/Oblivion was the tools were allready set up. To make a new object you opened the new item asset menu, set what kind of object it was, its parameters, and the model to use. Then added it to what ever loot list it was for to see it in game. To make a sword choose sword from the menu, damage, item value, then set which model to use, and BOOM u have a sword u can swing around in the game.

Now if I was to apply that to X4 I would say Hey, this is a ship, its stats, and then say the seat is at Maker A, the teleporter is at Marker B, guns are at Makers C and D and engine is at E. and baboom a new ship. Now if X4 used such a method it would be easy to add in alot more content, change the parameters of what is in the game, and much easier to develop expansions for the game.

From what CBJ is suggesting it sounds like ship model goes in one file, added to another file, stats are in another file, cockpit enclosure is in another file, 3D mesh and texture data is in another file. And to change anything about those files you would need to recompile half the game. This would be a bad way too work.

I'm just going to come out and say it - XR has better mod support than Bethbryo.

Where Bethbryo obviously wins out is getting new assets into the game. You have plenty of experience with modding in new art assets, and it's clearly very achievable.

But I spent literal years building, fixing and tweaking a Skyrim mod list, and its compatibility problems are absolutely horrendous. Beth's record system is great for trivial usage - like you said, adjust numbers, reference a record, save to plugin, It Just Works. But all it takes for a mod conflict is two mods editing the same weapon, or the same leveled list, or the same NPC, and it's a conflict. Not to mention too many modders are sloppy with their edits, and override vanilla quests, spells, and all manner of other stuff with reckless abandon.

Any non-trivial Bethbryo modlist, therefore, is screaming out for forensic analysis before you dare to play, and there is no Bethesda tool for that. xEdit is your saviour-Swiss-army-knife for mod conflict analysis, and Bethesda had no part in it. Similarly, Bethesda didn't make any of the 4-5 patch generators I had to run before starting up the game - ASIS, DynDOLOD, TES5Edit Merge Patch, Bashed Patch, FNIS...... Not to mention external tools like LOOT, which sorts out some of the nasty tangles your overrides will be in.

All of this - all of it - is because Bethbryo's record system means you override all of a record or none of it. The beauty of XR's XML patching is it's extremely fine-grained. So many important files are in XML, and using versatile XPath syntax you can select a single attribute on a single element and override it. The rest of the document is unchanged, and can be edited by other mods possibly without conflict. That is literally impossible in Bethbryo - if you override the damage of a sword you must also override its model path, its weapon sounds, its gold value, its weight....

And hell, for all the flak MD/AI can get for being XML, that means you can be just as fine-grained with your edits. It's an absolute boon for scripts that have blocking actions, where any edits have to be made extremely carefully. And if all you want to do is change (e.g.) an expression in a set_value, no need to override the whole script.

And while we're on scripting, let's mention Bethbryo's absolutely insane lazy script engine. In any game scripts are an important way to break out of certain limits, like what Bethbryo's admittedly versatile spell system can't do. But in Bethbryo, your scripts get deferred for some unknown amount of time, dependent on performance, before they actually run. If you've ever downloaded a "melee hits stagger" mod, you've seen the silly "reaction time" between hitting an enemy and seeing them flinch. A higher script load doesn't decrease frame-rate as in a sane world, or even give scripts the option to run synchronously - it compromises the consistency of the game state. And what's more, if the queue of tasks gets too big, the game just throws all the tasks away, silently, and never to be retried. Your main quest can and will break because there were too many butterflies thinking which flower they want to land on next. This really is not good for the possibilities in script mods, and that's even assuming (wrongly) that all modders will write their scripts carefully and conscientiously.

There is just so much wrong with Beth's modding system that never got addressed, that I just can't say it has good mod support with a straight face. XR's system, at least for anything that uses XML, is simple, conflict-resistant, fine-grained, and still easy to use.

[DaMuncha]

I've done alot of modding for Quake 3 and Skyrim and they both use markers to align where the parts attach, its just a 90 degree triangle named something like "weapon", you attach one to the hand on your character and one to where the handel of the gun is, and it will set all guns to use that point as where the weapon is held. Skyrim on the other hand has a marker where the finger is and aligns 0,0,0 of the weapon to that marker.

Skyrim and Oblivion use Nifskope to attach the weapon model and the texture together. The mod data file contains only changes or additions to the skyrim data file and then applies those changes to the game. So in the item window you set its parameters and tell it to use that nif object file. the Nif file contains things like shader info and physics parameters of how the object is to act in the game. So you do need the mesh and the textures as separate files in thier folders and the nif brings them together to set thier physical behaivior and contains the tags, then the additions to the data file (item settings) tell the game that its a weapon with stats. Then once you have the weapon added u can place it directly in the world area or add the item entry to a loot level list so that you can find it randomly in the game. Once you get the hang of it its pretty streamline and can be done easily by one person. Bethesda would have had a team that do each task. Making it streamlined like that meant that I (one person) was able to make more weapons in 4 months than the whole bethesda team did in 5 years. But they didnt have the mod tools which were made after the game was released that let me do all that stuff by my self.

Perhaps Egosoft could make mod tools for the community after X4 is released?

[A5PECT]

I've done alot of modding for Quake 3 and Skyrim and they both use markers to align where the parts attach...

Designing X4 functionality into XR ships goes way beyond just placing markers for the new assets. The assets have to be created (models, textures, animation), new functionality has to be programmed (weapon/shield/engine customization, navigation data for NPCs), and I can guarantee you that most of the existing assets for an XR ship have to be reworked - sometimes very heavily - to fit all of those things into it for X4.

XR capital ships might have an easier time cramming everything in for a port, since they have a lot of room inside the ship models to work with, and I imagine the external capital ship docks require less standardization than internal docks for small and medium ships. Plus there are capital ships like the Arawn, which seems to have already been designed for X4 functionality, and those features were simply unable to be implemented for XR.

[Falcrack]

I wonder how difficult it would be for a modder to remove the teleporter to and from the bridge of a large capital ship in X4, and instead replace it with at least a hallway of some sort.

[Alan Phipps]

" … remove the teleporter to and from the bridge of a large capital ship in X4, and instead replace it with at least a hallway of some sort"

<Sound of Bosun's pipe followed by:> "Fleet [Admiral] arriving" - "Fleet in the cloakroom." - "As you were."

[A5PECT]

I wonder how difficult it would be for a modder to remove the teleporter to and from the bridge of a large capital ship in X4, and instead replace it with at least a hallway of some sort.

Depends on the ship.

Also, we haven't seen how L or XL ships dock, or how the player embarks or disembarks from one when at a station.

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

Don't be so quick to overshadow the new ships. I, for one, am curious to see what new ships will show up in X4. I already like the look of the ones I've seen.

[Morkonan]

The only issue with the exposing the formats would be the time required to document them. Because of the more detailed functionality they are a lot more complex in X4 than the formats for X3, so this would still be quite a significant exercise, but probably more manageable than adapting our internal toolchain so that other people could use it. Again, no promises, but I will raise that as a possible alternative.

(Just using this as a reference quote.)

Format exporters could handle a bunch of that, if you could write them. Though I hate Blender, it's got decent script functionality and plug-in support. Milkshape tried to be "that one package" for all game-related meshes, with it's plug-in functionality, but it does not due a lot of the things more modern games need, these days. XSI is still available, last I checked, as a free download on Turbosquid. (I think.) It uses a very old 3ds script format, but one that may be easier to translate to/from.

A Blender script would probably be the most widely accessible tool and making a set of scripts for it for basic meshes/nulls/whatever export to an X4 useable format would probably yield the most widely accessible results. Not everyone can afford high-end production packages and some people still refuse to pirate software. So, Blender is a good target for Egosoft's efforts if you wished to try it.

[mr.WHO]

A tiny part of me would love to see Arawn, Taranis and maybe Omicron Lyrae Foltor fighters back in X4

[StormMagi]

Importing a 3D model of a ship's hull is, as Alan suggested, the easy part; it's all the stuff that goes around that to make it a functional ship that is harder.

As we've said before, we would love to provide modders with tools for creating ships and stations, but unfortunately it's not proven practical for us to do it so far. The biggest issue is that the toolchain we use in-house has a number of different elements that are closely inter-linked. These include things like a 3DSMax add-in, an in-house database and converter applications that run on particular folders on our network. Disentangling these to provide even part of the toolchain in a form usable by people not on our network would be quite a significant chunk of work (certainly a lot more than a one-person job, sorry Skeeter ). And to make things worse, the rate at which the tools evolve, especially during initial development but also when working on patches and updates, mean that it would be far from a one-off activity.

When the dust has settled from the X4 release, I will bring up the subject again and see whether we can find some time to work on this, but that won't happen soon and I can't make any promises whatsoever regarding whether anything will come of it.

If you can't release the tools to us, would there be a possibility of having Egosoft hold a community vote (or several over a few years) to import a ship or two from a list of existing X3/TC/AP/XR ships? Or perhaps something similiar to Warframe's Tennogen, where Egosoft might pick a submission or two from a community contest (or several contests over a few years) to add into the game?

[RWolf]

Converting them automatically would be impossible, but if the users can access the models and be able to modify them enough to work with the way X4 requires, it could be possible. I am more bothered by the fact that Egosoft actively chose not to use their assets from XRebirth for X4. Its not hard to get the textures to work for PBR either. Stations and ships from XR should be in X4, there is no good reason not to have them. I expect some tweaking to occur but it could be done. The whole "modular" aspect to everything for X4 kind of ruined the ability to easily transfer assets over and its not really enhancing the game design in a a meaningful way since everything ends up looking more generic and ugly as a result.

[Tomonor]

Stations and ships from XR should be in X4, there is no good reason not to have them

-Most of the smaller ship have lower polygon and texture resolution count than usual
-The larger ships require complete dedicated areas to support the new docking areas
-The turrets also have a different module system this time
-The stations were way too big and unsophisticated, even confusing at some parts. At least, compared to what we have in X4 now.

These technical reasons alone were enough to start over IMO.
But if we don't look at the technicality, there's the fact that new ships would sell better. Don't forget that XR was considered a flop by the general consumerbase. Maybe Egosoft didn't want people to be reminded of Rebirth?

[RWolf]

Stations and ships from XR should be in X4, there is no good reason not to have them

-Most of the smaller ship have lower polygon and texture resolution count than usual
-The larger ships require complete dedicated areas to support the new docking areas
-The turrets also have a different module system this time
-The stations were way too big and unsophisticated, even confusing at some parts. At least, compared to what we have in X4 now.

These technical reasons alone were enough to start over IMO.
But if we don't look at the technicality, there's the fact that new ships would sell better. Don't forget that XR was considered a flop by the general consumerbase. Maybe Egosoft didn't want people to be reminded of Rebirth?

Lower polycount: Not a problem if it looks good. In fact the secret to making good game assets is knowing how to make good use of low poly count. They could even rebake the normal maps with a smooth edge shader to make the lower poly look like its been subdivided.
Lower resolution: No, more like they didnt necessarily mirror everything in the entire universe like they have with x4. This just means the UV maps are probably covering more of the model rather than just half of it. Additionally, they should have higher resolution (which is big on memory drain) texture maps in house anyway since you are not necessarily going to texture at the lowest resolution, but rather export to that lower resolution. The project files should still be there.

-turrets as different module system which is why I said "The whole "modular" aspect to everything for X4 kind of ruined the ability to easily transfer assets over". My point was that they should have designed the game around those existing assets, not forcing themselves into a corner to constantly have to remake everything from scratch. Even then, there are ways to attach a turret module to an existing model, assuming there is the will to do so in the first place. Alternatively, they could just adjust the old models and rebake the textures onto the newer one that has been modified to work with the turrets (not that they are much use in this game to begin with tbh).

-Stations were too big? No they were not. Problem is stations are too small. Egosoft made them into little cities, which is what they should be.
- Stations were unsophisticated and confusing? You just contradicted yourself. Something that is unsophisticated is defined as overly simple, lacking complexity, something artistically bland. If they were unsophisticated, then you couldn't complain that they were confusing. The stations were "sophisticated", which is why you were overwhelmed by them. Furthermore, the player had no problem identifying what each component did, be it solar power plants, ore refining, agricultural..ect they were easy to identify due to unique design and silhouette. These were mostly removed in X4 and an important component is art design for games is to make them easily identifiable due to varying differences in shape, color, and other notable features. If anything, X4 took something sophisticated, and made it unsophisticated.

Don't forget that XR was considered a flop by the general consumerbase. Maybe Egosoft didn't want people to be reminded of Rebirth?

It was considered a flop because it was broken upon release, they had extremely bad game design decisions and the interiors/character models were from 1999. The art assets in the universe, plus the sectors, were not what people complained about. Furthermore, Egosoft kept the space highways, the npc designs, the walking component and the cartoony graphics, so clearly they were not trying to get away from the image of XR too much. They actually managed to keep the worst parts of XR and pull them into X4, while getting rid of the best parts of XR. The consumer base for XR wanted X3 gameaplay in XR, thats all. The assets were fine. Egosoft chose to throw the baby out with the bathwater, perhaps with the excuse that it would adhere to their new gimmicks (modular everything?).

[Riccardoman]

God, seeing this images and knowing these stations and backgrounds are not in X4 it makes me really sad

they were special