AI is cheating in the markets

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blanmgr
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AI is cheating in the markets

Post by blanmgr » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 02:54

I have noticed that the AI can sell much less/lower than I can set my prices for. The AI has a "non competitive" edge to the market by going lower than the player.

You are locked from going lower than a certain amount when you are trying to manually set a selling price for example 35 CR. If you search your universe, you can see the NPC/AI station can go lower than the 35 CR such as 23 CR. If you try to beat that price to go down to 22 CR, the amount you set at 22 CR will go back up to the minimum of 35 CR. Is there going to be a fix for this. This example was for Maja Dust but this applies to every ware.

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Re: AI is cheating the markets

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:10

The AI are selling wares cheaper to you because they like you. This is the discount that is unlocked when reaching 10, 20 and 30 reputation. The player's prices are still competitive since the AI offers no such discount between each other.

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Re: AI is cheating the markets

Post by blanmgr » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:18

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:10
The AI are selling wares cheaper to you because they like you. This is the discount that is unlocked when reaching 10, 20 and 30 reputation. The player's prices are still competitive since the AI offers no such discount between each other.
Yes, I have a 30+ with all but three factions. That is an issue... to not be competitive in the market at my station wares. I should be able to go as low as the AI. It is nice that they like me with cheaper selling prices but I am not selling wares at my stations.

The AI should not have the "end all" and go as low as it can but the player cannot. That is cheating.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:33

blanmgr wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:18
Yes, I have a 30+ with all but two factions. That is an issue... to not be competitive in the market at my station wares. I should be able to go as low as the AI. It is nice that they like me with cheaper selling prices but I am not selling wares at my stations.

The AI should not have the "end all" and go as low as it can but the player cannot. That is cheating.
From what I understand the AI is not setting prices lower than the player can, just they are selling to the player lower than the minimum price because they like the player.

If you are having difficulties because their low price is competing with your higher prices with internal trade, use the restrict trade function to force your stations to only buy from other stations you own.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by blanmgr » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:44

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:33

From what I understand the AI is not setting prices lower than the player can, just they are selling to the player lower than the minimum price because they like the player.

If you are having difficulties because their low price is competing with your higher prices with internal trade, use the restrict trade function to force your stations to only buy from other stations you own.
I cannot honestly agree with that. If that was a true, then "all wares" with my factions would be lower than what I can sell at. Remember, what I just said.. "All of my reputations are at 30+" (minus xenon, kha'ak and SCA) so I would have that issue with every faction's wares. So, this is not a true fact about this "one or two wares" selling below the "hard set lowest amount for ware(s) in the Logical Station Overview".

What I am stating is if I see a ware(s) selling by the AI is "lower then I" then should be able to go down as low as the AI, in which the game settings for that particular ware(s) is set that I cannot go any lower because of an hard set amount in the game.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 06:06

blanmgr wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 03:44
I cannot honestly agree with that. If that was a true, then "all wares" with my factions would be lower than what I can sell at. Remember, what I just said.. "All of my reputations are at 30+" (minus xenon, kha'ak and SCA) so I would have that issue with every faction's wares. So, this is not a true fact about this "one or two wares" selling below the "hard set lowest amount for ware(s) in the Logical Station Overview".
They will only be listed at below the minimum price if the AI set price is low enough. If the ware has a high sale price, due to lack of availability, then even with the discount it will be listed at above the minimum price.

Faction reputation is just one source of discount. Hacking and data leaks can provide large temporary discounts which only apply to a single station. Inverse discounts also exist with NPC stations buying wares, allowing them to pay the player more than maximum price for wares.

Allowing the player to list below the minimum price is potentially bug prone. A lot of scripts compare current price with minimum price and might not be designed to cope with prices set below the minimum price. It also would not make any sense since "minimum" implies a limit. Simply lowering the minimum price is not a good idea either since that has game balance implications and no matter how low one sets the price the AI will always be able to sell to the player cheaper due to the relationship discount.

The player does not need to offer a discount to the NPCs since the NPCs have infinite money. If the NPC factions do ever get a finite budget then such discounts could be a useful gameplay mechanic.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by iforgotmysocks » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 13:34

Hm in X-R it was well listed what action resulted in discounts and it was amazing to see how that affected the actuall price. Kinda sad to see that go for X4.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 19:06

iforgotmysocks wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 13:34
Hm in X-R it was well listed what action resulted in discounts and it was amazing to see how that affected the actuall price. Kinda sad to see that go for X4.
Pretty much the same actions still provide discounts or bonuses in X4. Only difference is that scanning station modules has been changed for scanning data leaks on station modules and that quick time event passing your way to a discount has fortunately been removed.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by iforgotmysocks » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 19:17

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 19:06
iforgotmysocks wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 13:34
Hm in X-R it was well listed what action resulted in discounts and it was amazing to see how that affected the actuall price. Kinda sad to see that go for X4.
Pretty much the same actions still provide discounts or bonuses in X4. Only difference is that scanning station modules has been changed for scanning data leaks on station modules and that quick time event passing your way to a discount has fortunately been removed.
I was talking about the indetail listing of the type and magnitude of discounts affecting the base price of a ware.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by eMYNOCK » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 21:41

The Details per Trade may be non visible.. but the Discounts and percentages are the same.

I might be wrong but the 30+ Discound should be around 30%.

for Energy cells that would dump the price from around 35 to around 24 Credits...


the AI faction will still offer the eCells fo 35 Credits... but only the Player benefits from the discount.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by radcapricorn » Sun, 1. Dec 19, 21:59

Sigh, where's my Solar Energetics that was constantly overproducing and could be also over-discounted into paying me for taking their energy cells?.. :D

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by eMYNOCK » Mon, 2. Dec 19, 07:13

radcapricorn wrote:
Sun, 1. Dec 19, 21:59
Sigh, where's my Solar Energetics that was constantly overproducing and could be also over-discounted into paying me for taking their energy cells?.. :D
i think i remember this... got a discount of 150% that involved +30 rep, several minor scan discounts and the huge market hack discount.

after that the game crashed when i was trying to get those extra cheap, we pay you if you take em energ cells.


i also think that was fixed a (very) long time ago.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Doomdog19 » Mon, 2. Dec 19, 16:51

Good morning,

My dad here and I have been questioning this for a very long time. We had both assumed the AI was cheating, getting the prices this low. He is vastly more economy focused than I am.

I did read in this thread that in X:Rebirth, you could see the prices from all empire's prior to the discount, If I'm understanding this correctly.

So, with that being said, is it possible to get an update for the UI that shows the prices without the discount being applied? Maybe an option to tick showing without discounts or a separate menu that shows the prices of something in regions? Maybe make it easier to tell when a discount is being provided and what the original price is?

Cdaragorn
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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Cdaragorn » Mon, 2. Dec 19, 16:56

Because the prices you're seeing are not what's being offered on the global market, the issue you're concerned about is not happening. Other AI traders will still see your wares as cheaper than other offers because the AI cannot offer lower than those minimums to anyone else. The market balance is not broken.
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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Doomdog19 » Mon, 2. Dec 19, 16:59

Cdaragorn wrote:
Mon, 2. Dec 19, 16:56
Because the prices you're seeing are not what's being offered on the global market, the issue you're concerned about is not happening. Other AI traders will still see your wares as cheaper than other offers because the AI cannot offer lower than those minimums to anyone else. The market balance is not broken.
This does not resolve the confusion though. We see something entirely different than the AI. Also, it is quite easier to tell the price of wares, when you can see what discounts are being offered and adjust effectively.

I am suggesting that it needs to be more easily known visually when a discount is applied from the original price. Much like how nowadays when something is on discount, it shows the original price of the product, how much in % is being discounted, and the price it is now from the discount.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by radcapricorn » Mon, 2. Dec 19, 17:34

It's one of the many useful things that got nuked from the UI for inexplicable reasons. Rebirth had detailed breakdown on how the price you were getting was being formed. You could see which discounts you had, and how long they would last. Why on Earth did Ego carry over the discount mechanics from Rebirth, but axe that breakdown?..

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by tomchk » Mon, 2. Dec 19, 18:33

radcapricorn wrote:
Mon, 2. Dec 19, 17:34
It's one of the many useful things that got nuked from the UI for inexplicable reasons. Rebirth had detailed breakdown on how the price you were getting was being formed. You could see which discounts you had, and how long they would last. Why on Earth did Ego carry over the discount mechanics from Rebirth, but axe that breakdown?..
I would love to know as well. XR had a number of great trading features that I think would be excellent in X4, at least as alternatives to the current map system.
Care to see what I've been creating? https://www.youtube.com/user/ytubrute

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 3. Dec 19, 00:33

I agree. It would be very useful for the total discount or bonus to be listed somewhere. At least in the trade window they should be listed around the buy and sell columns.

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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by darkstar12 » Tue, 3. Dec 19, 01:42

Why do you need to know what the discount only you have access to is? It doesn't impact trades done by the AI at all. Just means more profits for you.

I xan see it as interesting to know the exact numbers. But I would rather they allowed us to set transfer limits in the stations. And better statistics for trade and seperate one for stations. And of course mining as a seperate on as well. Since that is actually useful to you in planning the future of your Empire.
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Re: AI is cheating in the markets

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 3. Dec 19, 02:15

darkstar12 wrote:
Tue, 3. Dec 19, 01:42
Why do you need to know what the discount only you have access to is? It doesn't impact trades done by the AI at all. Just means more profits for you.
So that people are aware that the mechanic exists and know why NPCs appear to be undercutting them.

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