[3.0] ANT and ARG are doing almost nothing and loosing the wars

[Dinadin]

It seems that there is something with the AI of these factions, or may be HOP and XEN got some significant buffs. HOP and XEN are attacking with a squads of big ships while human factions are building new ships very rarely and keep throwing them at invading armadas 1 at a time. TEL doesn't seem to have same issues with their XEN invasions or at least may resist them for much, much longer time. On average, I think, ARG and ANT is doomed to be annihilated in 50-200 game hours without really really serious player help. For example, I wanted to play as a lonely frigate pilot for at least first 100-150 hours. I killed single handedly(with 2 M plasmas) about 15 HOP destroyers and 1 supply ship piloting only my Cerberus, but it changed nothing.

As a player, I basically obligated to start saving them ASAP by playing as empire-builder with a huge fleet, instead of doing other things that I may want to do instead, like exploring the universe. I didn't played before 2.5 but I searched a lot and never seen someone mentioning the same problem before 2.5, and I can say that I'm not the only person who noticed in 2.6/3.0

I created a topic on Steam forums (I went somewhat emotional naming it, I know) 4 days ago and now it has 55 messages with a lot of people having the same problem/concerns about this situation. My English is far from good, but this guy explained my emotions much better then I could.

I created this topic hoping that developers can comment on this situation. Even if this will not be recognized as a problem but rather as a feature, it's better to hear this answer rather then don't know what to expect

[Imperial Good]

or may be HOP and XEN got some significant buffs

In 3.00 HOP is getting a significant buff due to resource field improvements helping their economy. In the beta they are pretty much broken due to having rail guns on some of their ships, a weapon that is very much in WIP stages so very over powered.

[raUlo]

In my 2.6 game, both paranid factions seemed more powerful than the others, yet with a little bit of help from me, ANT was able to keep Second Contact II Flashpoint from being overrun by HOP.

The only faction that seemed to be underpowered were the Xenon. 4-5 Odysseus destroyers could take out a fleet of 3 Xenon Ks and 1 I, which to me doesn't quite make sense. They don't seem to be the universal threat they are supposed to be. I found their ships to be underpowered and their economy somewhat broken, as they failed to deliver needed construction wares to their newly built stations

[Sandalpocalypse]

Ks will usually defeat a destroyer in sector; they have a lot more turreted firepower. An I is devastating insector. Its only OOS that xenon suffer, because right now OOS damages turrets a lot faster than IS and Xenon are Turret-dependent.

[Lord Crc]

Its only OOS that xenon suffer, because right now OOS damages turrets a lot faster than IS and Xenon are Turret-dependent.

Sadly, by definition most of the fighting happens OOS. In my 2.6 game the Xenon aren't even a nuisance, and I don't even have a fleet.

[GCU Grey Area]

Sadly, by definition most of the fighting happens OOS. In my 2.6 game the Xenon aren't even a nuisance, and I don't even have a fleet.

Bit different in my 3.0b game. Xenon from Tharka's Cascade have been VERY aggressive & worryingly successful in their conquests. They now own Hatikvah's Choice III, Morning Star III & IV (no Argon Stations left in any of them). Hatikvah's Choice I is neutral - no one has stations there, at least not stations which stay intact for very long. Xenon from Tharka's have also been raiding Silent Witness I, Eighteen Billion, Memory of Profit & Profit Centre Alpha, but have been noticeably less successful than they were against the Argons - most of these sectors still have at least a few non-Xenon stations & are neutral, rather than under Xenon control.

Meanwhile HOP have taken almost everything up to The Reach & Argon Prime. Only Argon controlled sectors left are Black Hole Sun IV & V. Antigone are doing better, but mostly because I built a shipyard there (2x XL, 4x L & 4x S/M construction bays), which has enabled they to amass a sufficient fleet to retain control of Antigone Memorial, though it was VERY dicey for quite a long time (had to incorporate Admin centres into my own stations just to keep it contested - ANT primary stations kept getting slagged as soon as they were built) & Second Contact XI. They have also recently retaken control of The Void which has been in HOP hands for weeks. Fun times & highly profitable for the Antigone Ship-Building Organisation.

[INSANEcyborg]

One of the things I've noticed is that factions only care about the sectors they own, and the ones next to what they own. The really hurts the Argon, because they'll send forces into Hatikvah's Choice and Second Contact, but won't go past them to attack the Xenon or HOP. HAT has nothing to attack the Xenon with, and ANT won't have backup when they try to attack HOP.

Another problem is that ARG and ANT are in poor positions on the map. Most PAR stations are too far away to trade with, and the ones that can trade have to go though HOP space. Ships that can use the highway can make it but large traders could get destroyed on the way. On the other side, the Tharka's Cascade and Silent Witness gates are right next to each other. The Xenon that are defending their gate are already in position to attack ships using the other gate, and not just the large ships either; In this case, there are ships getting off the highway going to Hatikvahs's Choice III, and they're also getting attacked. The Black Hole Sun/Grand Exchange route is safe, but there's no highway and the MIN Shipyard/Wharf is competing for resources.

[Codejnki]

The HOP devastated Argon Prime in my game.

They destroyed the shipyard and all factories leaving just the warf and 2 defense stations while the HOP were busy building the third.

I was finally able to build up enough of a fleet to drive them off, but I’m worried the Argon people will never quite recover.

[chew-ie]

I was finally able to build up enough of a fleet to drive them off, but I’m worried the Argon people will never quite recover.

I lost "only" the ARG wharf and was worried I won't have access to their fighters & services for a long time. But they did rebuild the wharf in Black Sun

[GCU Grey Area]

I lost "only" the ARG wharf and was worried I won't have access to their fighters & services for a long time. But they did rebuild the wharf in Black Sun

Get used to that. ANT & ARG shipyards, wharves & equipment docks in my game were bouncing round the map every few days, as HOP systematically smashed them & they were rebuilt in new locations. Has settled down a bit now - fewer locations for them to go to, since HOP & Xenon forces have conquered most ANT & ARG sectors. Meanwhile new ships produced by my shipyard in Antigone Memorial (exclusively for ANT & ARG) seem to have at least stalemated the war. They're being annihilated soon after being built, sometimes right outside my shipyard, but they occasionally manage to take elements of the HOP fleet with them & at least while HOP are busy hunting those ships they're not going after the NPC shipyards (etc).

[pref]

The HOP devastated Argon Prime in my game.

Get used to that. ANT & ARG shipyards, wharves & equipment docks in my game were bouncing round the map every few days, as HOP systematically smashed them

Aren't these unbalanced weapons the main reason for HOP getting so op in beta?

[GCU Grey Area]

Aren't these unbalanced weapons the main reason for HOP getting so op in beta?

Don't think so. Think it's more of a case that HOP start out in 3.0 with a much bigger fleet than anyone else. In particular they had a vast fleet of capitals at the start of my game & those ships don't benefit at all from the new guns (so far only new turret is Flak & they're ARG & ANT only). They also have an industrial base that was at least as large as ANT & ARG combined at the start of my current game. Suspect that's entirely by design - HOP needs a huge economy since they don't trade with anyone else, but that does mean they can replace losses at a prodigious rate.

[spankahontis]

In my 2.6 game, both paranid factions seemed more powerful than the others, yet with a little bit of help from me, ANT was able to keep Second Contact II Flashpoint from being overrun by HOP.

The only faction that seemed to be underpowered were the Xenon. 4-5 Odysseus destroyers could take out a fleet of 3 Xenon Ks and 1 I, which to me doesn't quite make sense. They don't seem to be the universal threat they are supposed to be. I found their ships to be underpowered and their economy somewhat broken, as they failed to deliver needed construction wares to their newly built stations

The Xenon, though not the strongest ships, should be overwhelming the other factions as their production tree is far superior.
All they need is to mine ores/silicon/methane etc. And send it to their Shipyard/Wharf and they have their ship building materials and their ships in one go.
Where as the other Factions have to move raw resources to stations to produce all their ship building parts that need to then be delivered to the Shipyards and Wharfs in order to build their ships.
That formula alone should make the Xenon capable of building Ships faster than their enemies and crush them through sheer force of numbers.
The Xenon don't even need to be more buff than the Argon, simply defeat them by out producing them.
Only counter to that would be to increase production, more Wharfs/Shipyards to keep up.

[Warnoise]

Considering how HOP is fighting everyone at the same time from mulytiple fronts (including xenon) they need to have an advantage (in case player doesn't want to get involved). Otherwise they would just get decimated in the early game.

[GCU Grey Area]

The Xenon, though not the strongest ships, should be overwhelming the other factions as their production tree is far superior.

Not so sure about that myself - think it may make the Xenon economy (such as it is) uniquely fragile.

Destroy enough mining ships or their SPP (generally only one per Xenon cluster) & their capability to replace ships & stations is severely compromised. Recently did a survey of the Xenon sectors in my game & this is what seems to have happened to the Xenon in Matrix #9 & Scale Plate Green. Still have some stations left but very few ships. Very little Xenon activity at all on that side of the map.

In contrast for the major factions blow up a station or destroy their mining ships & very little happens - still lots of materials flowing around the economy which can be used to replace lost ships & stations. Takes a major event (such a massed HOP invasion with several dozen capitals) to do serious damage to the point where ship production & station building is starved of resources.

Also think I've worked out why the Matrix #79B/Tharka's Cascade Xenon have been so successful in my game. Seems at some point HOP conquered all of their neighbouring Xenon sectors &, as a consequence, the Shipyard & Wharf which used to be in Atiya's Misfortune relocated. Suspect the Xenon have the same logic as the main factions with respect to rebuilding primary stations in nearby friendly sectors. In my game that turned out to be Tharka's Cascade XV, so effectively the northwest Xenon cluster in my game has effectively double the ship production capacity they would otherwise have. No wonder the Argon were having so much difficulty with them, in contrast to the Teladi which kept their own Xenon infestations nicely under control.

[Nikonofune28]

Same problem here. Startet a new game a few weeks ago. In my first save the Xenon just attacked Hatikva´s Choice. But they didn´t make any significant progress.
With the new game now, Hatikvas Choice is also neutral. A Xenon I also nearly destroyed all stations in Argon Prime. I noticed that in the last minute and could save the Ship Yard. But the Dock with Argon Representative was gone and he moved to the Ship Yard. Further it looks like, that no one is trying to rebuild stations in Hatikvas Choice. Looks like an Issue with the latest Updates.
I am not sure if this is a feature, or a bug. I would like it, if they can make it to re-colonise that sector.

[Ragman]

My save have about 10d gametime. HOP was in big trouble with xenon in Holy Vision and Teladi in Ianamus Zura. I sent my fleet to calm down the fight few times.

But then I started build my shipyard and after the S/M yard was finished HOP and Teladi have beaten the Xenon away. HOP have claimed few their sectors.

Sadly that was my plan to do now I might need to take them grom HOP.

[spankahontis]

The Xenon, though not the strongest ships, should be overwhelming the other factions as their production tree is far superior.

Not so sure about that myself - think it may make the Xenon economy (such as it is) uniquely fragile.

Destroy enough mining ships or their SPP (generally only one per Xenon cluster) & their capability to replace ships & stations is severely compromised. Recently did a survey of the Xenon sectors in my game & this is what seems to have happened to the Xenon in Matrix #9 & Scale Plate Green. Still have some stations left but very few ships. Very little Xenon activity at all on that side of the map.

In contrast for the major factions blow up a station or destroy their mining ships & very little happens - still lots of materials flowing around the economy which can be used to replace lost ships & stations. Takes a major event (such a massed HOP invasion with several dozen capitals) to do serious damage to the point where ship production & station building is starved of resources.

Also think I've worked out why the Matrix #79B/Tharka's Cascade Xenon have been so successful in my game. Seems at some point HOP conquered all of their neighbouring Xenon sectors &, as a consequence, the Shipyard & Wharf which used to be in Atiya's Misfortune relocated. Suspect the Xenon have the same logic as the main factions with respect to rebuilding primary stations in nearby friendly sectors. In my game that turned out to be Tharka's Cascade XV, so effectively the northwest Xenon cluster in my game has effectively double the ship production capacity they would otherwise have. No wonder the Argon were having so much difficulty with them, in contrast to the Teladi which kept their own Xenon infestations nicely under control.

Interesting, so the Xenon are "capped" when it comes to how many Shipyards and Wharfs they are allowed?
If true, that makes sense as they could continue to grow out of control building as many stations as they like, to which it could cripple our PC's resources slowing framerates and eventual CTDs if there are not restrictions put in place by Egosoft to manage resources.

And what you're saying is.. They only build a new Shipyard/Wharf if they've lost one someplace else?

So I guess for one unlucky Faction, they're going to get the Xenon's max capacity? But even so, they would no longer have the ability to attack from multiple Sectors? So they would overwhelm the Faction they haven't been eradicated in?
But eventually they would spread themselves too thin and be attacked by multiple Factions in neighboring sectors, combining their Shipyard/Wharf productions to even the odds
As Factions are also capped as to how many shipyards/wharfs they are allowed.
Hatikvah it would end up 4x Xenon Shipyards/Wharfs Vs 1x Argon Shipyard/Wharf? Until they push into Teladi Space to which it would be the combined force of the Teladi Company and Ministry of Finance each with their own Shipyards and Wharfs and the Xenon would be overwhelmed again?


Also i've noticed that Faulty Logic 1 is not being claimed by either the HOP or the Xenon?
Neither will claim the Sector Similar to Argon not wanting to claim Heretic's End or the Teladi/Godrealm wanting to claim those 2 unclaimed sectors on their borders.
Maybe it was intended/introduced by the latest Beta Patch to stop the HOP steamrolling the Xenon there?

[mr.WHO]

Same in my game:

ARG:
- Collossus battlegroup stick in Argon prime doing noting
- a few random Behemoths on Xenon and HOP frontline
- some Cerberus and fighters here and there


ANT:
- no carrier
- an odd Behemoth once a blue moon.
- mostly bunch on fighters and corvettes on the frontiline


Meanwhile at HOP:
- swarms of fighters
- nice groups of Nemesis and Gorgons
- several wolfpacks of Odysseuses (6-8 destroyers each)
- no carrier




To have full picture:
- all factions shipyards are fully supplied and have free production space.
- all factions buy equipment from my shipyards - HOP most frequently (I swear 80% of their destroyers are my production), ARG in moderate, ANT least frequently of all 3.

[spankahontis]

Same in my game:

ARG:
- Collossus battlegroup stick in Argon prime doing noting
- a few random Behemoths on Xenon and HOP frontline
- some Cerberus and fighters here and there


ANT:
- no carrier
- an odd Behemoth once a blue moon.
- mostly bunch on fighters and corvettes on the frontiline


Meanwhile at HOP:
- swarms of fighters
- nice groups of Nemesis and Gorgons
- several wolfpacks of Odysseuses (6-8 destroyers each)
- no carrier




To have full picture:
- all factions shipyards are fully supplied and have free production space.
- all factions buy equipment from my shipyards - HOP most frequently (I swear 80% of their destroyers are my production), ARG in moderate, ANT least frequently of all 3.

Once I started building Stations in ANT Sectors and filling the gaps in their Economy, they started mass building Behemoths and Fighters.
The HOP would be in serious trouble if the Paranid weren't swarming round that Kha'ak Station in Pious Mists 2.
But for now, the Antigone Republic in mine are fighting back (Thanks to me).