Skill and training Feedback

[pref]

in terms of save/load times

An NPC costs like 250 bytes or less depending on skills they have.

[Split-knot]

So I went to check my pilots, and all of them are nearing 3 stars in management, I honestly think that they might be bugged in some way, so I'll explain what I've done with them:

First is this Callisto pilot, I have him dealing spacefuel, buying it at that argon station in FRF space and selling it to that FRF defence station in the same sector. At first I was manually doing all the trades, but now I gave him a distribute wares order with only spacefuel as the ware.
https://imgur.com/T7bsmKp

Then there's this Boa, I've only been ordering manual trades with this ship.
https://imgur.com/enFoQlR

Now this Alligator I set him to sector mine in FRF sectors, then moved him over to ZYA once I got the rep to dock at their stations.
https://imgur.com/xoYtN30

As you can see, none of them have gained piloting skill at all past those two first stars I used seminars to get. In my previous 3.0 beta save, none of my pilots ever gained management stars, only station managers did. These are all Split pilots, so maybe their wires got flipped and learn management instead of piloting?

[pref]

In my previous 3.0 beta save, none of my pilots ever gained management stars, only station managers did.

I used autominers to train managers in 1.x, that's the quickest way to get managers afaik.
Never got a skill increase with manual trading or distribute wares so no clue about those, but i wouldn't be surprised if those affected manager skill instead of piloting as well.

[tomchk]

Interesting... thanks for the input on crew, pref. Do you think skill increases are intentionally going to management instead of piloting?

[pref]

Must be intentional, simple thing to change and its this way for a long time.
Never understood why there is no way to train piloting via trading - think mining would be a good option if it wasn't only affecting management.

[Cormyr]

So what is the most effective way to level a trader or miner aside from seminars?

[pref]

Hope i'm wrong, but seems fighting is quickest by far, and only fighting increases the correct skills (piloting+morale)?

Please someone correct me

[Cormyr]

I don't know. Even after 8+ hours of work my autominers didn't get a single additional star in piloting. Not even 1/3 of a star. Instead, the management skill went up to 2 1/2 and stays there. This cannot be intended.

[TonyEvans]

I think what might put people to rest is a Dev putting, in numbers, how skill gains are calculated.

How much XP is needed per level
How much xp is generated by each task? And towards what skill?
For example:

Morale: Gained by -
Destroying an enemy ship in combat, 50xp.
Performing a trade resulting in Profit. 10xp/profit%

Piloting: Gained by -
Exploration - 45xp/hour
Distribute Wares - 10xp/purchase, 15xp/sale
Trade - same as for Morale, maybe 15xp/profit%

Something along those lines, clear and in the open, might allay some doubts that people are having about Egosoft making these changes then being super vague with a "It works guys, trust us" when most everyone is saying it pretty much doesn't.

[chew-ie]

If you are looking for more information behind the design decisions and the general plans of Egosoft I recommend watching this stream at around both 00:35:00 and 00:42:00:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/582495258

Bernd gives a lot of insight there - and tips on how to train your employees.

[Raevyan]

Well all I can say is: 20+ hours of real time play (no seta) and yet not a single miner, explorer or manually ordered trader gained even a third of a Star in piloting. This is nonsense.
I get they don’t want people to automate things from the beginning but by the time even one pilot is skilled enough I already built 20+ stations. There are also other easy ways to earn money faster than having 5-10 auto traders running.

PS: i also haven’t seen any seminars for 2 star pilots to get them to a third...

[TonyEvans]

If you are looking for more information behind the design decisions and the general plans of Egosoft I recommend watching this stream at around both 00:35:00 and 00:42:00:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/582495258

Bernd gives a lot of insight there - and tips on how to train your employees.

Listening to it while I play.

He says Exploration and Ventures...

I can't recall ever seeing skill gains from pilots on Exploration (behavior or right-click command) and Ventures are locked out for anyone who modifies their game, which is a very common thing to do.

[chew-ie]

Well all I can say is: 20+ hours of real time play (no seta) and yet not a single miner, explorer or manually ordered trader gained even a third of a Star in piloting. This is nonsense.
I get they don’t want people to automate things from the beginning but by the time even one pilot is skilled enough I already built 20+ stations. There are also other easy ways to earn money faster than having 5-10 auto traders running.

PS: i also haven’t seen any seminars for 2 star pilots to get them to a third...

You have do missions for them. Skill progression is also tied to on how "boring" the task is. Letting your pilot circle for hours the same trade runs or already explored sectors, you won't get much of experience. (see the twitch stream for more insights from Bernd)

I can't recall ever seeing skill gains from pilots on Exploration (behavior or right-click command) and Ventures are locked out for anyone who modifies their game, which is a very common thing to do.

That's Bernds recommendation as well - if you can't bear the new system, use mods.

And I wouldn't say that mod usage is a very common thing for the majority of the players. I for one don't use mods as long as not all DLCs (=all races are included) are released. I loved mods back then in X3, but X4 has a lot to offer already without the need to use mods. If you don't have to turn it into X3 / X:Rebirth² that is.

[Cormyr]

I get their reasoning behind their design decisions. I'm just not sure whether or not there are bugs behind the scenes which make this already slow process of leveling up almost impossible.

[tomchk]

Yeah I wonder if the particulars are exactly how they intended, at least for the lack of 2 star seminars from missions.

[TonyEvans]

Well all I can say is: 20+ hours of real time play (no seta) and yet not a single miner, explorer or manually ordered trader gained even a third of a Star in piloting. This is nonsense.
I get they don’t want people to automate things from the beginning but by the time even one pilot is skilled enough I already built 20+ stations. There are also other easy ways to earn money faster than having 5-10 auto traders running.

PS: i also haven’t seen any seminars for 2 star pilots to get them to a third...

You have do missions for them. Skill progression is also tied to on how "boring" the task is. Letting your pilot circle for hours the same trade runs or already explored sectors, you won't get much of experience. (see the twitch stream for more insights from Bernd)

I can't recall ever seeing skill gains from pilots on Exploration (behavior or right-click command) and Ventures are locked out for anyone who modifies their game, which is a very common thing to do.

That's Bernds recommendation as well - if you can't bear the new system, use mods.

And I wouldn't say that mod usage is a very common thing for the majority of the players. I for one don't use mods as long as not all DLCs (=all races are included) are released. I loved mods back then in X3, but X4 has a lot to offer already without the need to use mods. If you don't have to turn it into X3 / X:Rebirth² that is.

Okay see, to me that's a cop out. "The systems there. If you don't like it, use mods."

That's the thing, the system's not there - not really. If it works, it doesn't work well. And that's the issue people are having. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions, made one or two myself. ES seems dedicated to sticking with what has mostly looked like a broken feature.

[chew-ie]

Okay see, to me that's a cop out. "The systems there. If you don't like it, use mods."

That's the thing, the system's not there - not really. If it works, it doesn't work well. And that's the issue people are having. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions, made one or two myself. ES seems dedicated to sticking with what has mostly looked like a broken feature.

It's not there - yet. Bernd and others have pointed out that this is something still being worked on. And yeah, I am in the discussion since it started last week @beta forums.

And ES is dedicated to work on solutions which work for a broader audiance - not just some. At the end, they are doing this jack-of-all-trades-master-of-non game for about 20 years.

And the out-of-jail-card "use mods" - it's really just for those who can't bear with the new system. It's always that way in life - you can't just please everyone, but here we have at least the means to adjust it to individual needs. It just won't come with the official release (if you want back to the previous crew system).

[TonyEvans]

Okay see, to me that's a cop out. "The systems there. If you don't like it, use mods."

That's the thing, the system's not there - not really. If it works, it doesn't work well. And that's the issue people are having. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions, made one or two myself. ES seems dedicated to sticking with what has mostly looked like a broken feature.

It's not there - yet. Bernd and others have pointed out that this is something still being worked on. And yeah, I am in the discussion since it started last week @beta forums.

And ES is dedicated to work on solutions which work for a broader audiance - not just some. At the end, they are doing this jack-of-all-trades-master-of-non game for about 20 years.

I do get that, and it's of course greatly appreciated.
The painful thing of this whole forum post is that they
A) Removed the ability/possibility to have higher-star crew when new ships are bought
then
B) Didn't give us a system with which to efficiently train new crew to perform the more critical Behaviors.

Removing pre-skilled crew on new ships would be fine if not for B. I'm fine with them removing or altering how skilled crew are generated with new ships, but not until a working system is in place.

Edit: Even a stop-gap measure of acquiring skilled crew based on a mix of available workforce and the station manager's level would have been a step in the right direction.
Bigger pool of people to be hired from, mixed with a more competent manager would, logically, result in a better type of crew being hired.

[ff8ff8]

While I like the idea of trying to make skilled crew more valuable to the player it just doesn't work at all in the current implementation.

It shouldn't be easier to get an entire capital fleet with hundreds of support fighters than to get a single 3-star pilot.

[tomchk]

While I like the idea of trying to make skilled crew more valuable to the player it just doesn't work at all in the current implementation.

It shouldn't be easier to get an entire capital fleet with hundreds of support fighters than to get a single 3-star pilot.

Strongly agreed